BLEACH LOW 2C REMOVAL

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Prior to this there was still discussion if destruction of a Space time or even a timeline was destroying the past/present/future. We shouldn't rush on this discussion since it seems great confusion about some rules of scaling.

The discussion has long since concluded. Standards are clearcut.
Universal Space-time= timeline= space-time continuum.
They are just different names for same object.
Names mean jackshit.

So its destruction is low2C.

 

[BleachHollow]

The discussion has long since concluded. Standards are clearcut.
Universal Space-time= timeline= space-time continuum.
They are just different names for same object.
Names mean jackshit.

So its destruction is low2C.

So this means that Bleach still should remain unchanged?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So this means that Bleach still should remain unchanged?

If Dangai is called a space-time and it was destroyed. Then yes.
More like it should be solid low2C.
Lose that 3A shit.

 

[PrinceofPein]

That's a completely misinterpreting time.

No you just don't understand what I said

Time by definition on this site is set/collection of all instants of space which constitutes it.

And low 2c by this site is destruction of all set/collection of space from past, present and future

So the Room you speak of doesn't contain time in it. It only forms a single instant of time.

I am saying if there is a room that that does not fuse 1D time with its 3D space and changes does not occur in it, it's just a 3D space
Why do you think we treat the Bigbang as a 3A energy or even lesser?
Cause any movement in space during the bigbang was what created time (this is the basic definition btw its deeper than this)

Dangai is reference to whole space-time. Not a single spatial frame.
But the entire collection of it.

And yhwach was not destroying the entire collection of the time set of the said dangai, so yes still H3A feat

 

[PrinceofPein]

If Dangai is called a space-time and it was destroyed. Then yes.
More like it should be solid low2C.
Lose that 3A shit.

NO

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

He didn't make a snapshot. The original universe had one time flow or timeline. Soul King then create 2 new space-times with a different time flows the dangai and the garganta.. These different time flows did not exist prior so he had to have create all of space-time for each realm.

Or he created the beginning of time for those realms and they flow normally on their own from that point onward instead of creating all of time at once. Basically what the Big Bang does.

I was referring to thread you posted.

Not mine.
The link I showed is recent attempt at downgrading space-time to 3D, saying space-time =/= timeline or all time.

DT completely debunked it.

Um, that thread you linked was with the OP trying to claim space-time wasn't 4-D, or that time isn't a 4th dimension. "Space time =/= timeline or all time" wasn't mentioned or the subject of that thread at all from what I read.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

And yhwach was not destroying the entire collection of the time set of the said dangai, so yes still H3A feat

Proof for your Claims. Yhwach is Possible 2C * not 2C. I hope you know the difference between both.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Regardless, this is going in circles and at this point, like I said, someone needs to make a staff thread to get a bigger discussion and clarification in on the Low 2-C rules.

And get it added to the main tiering page so this confusion doesnt come up again.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

A thread for this tier 2 business most def needs to be made

 

[PrinceofPein]

Regardless, this is going in circles and at this point, like I said, someone needs to make a staff thread to get a bigger discussion and clarification in on the Low 2-C rules.

And get it added to the main tiering page so this confusion doesnt come up again.

I messaged ultima and DT, when they give a reply I will make thread but from what ultima and king said, this has always been the standard, but people just don't understand that

 

[Deadguy]

Regardless, this is going in circles and at this point, like I said, someone needs to make a staff thread to get a bigger discussion and clarification in on the Low 2-C rules.

And get it added to the main tiering page so this confusion doesnt come up again.

It should be for all tiers 2 if I'm being honest here because there is alot verses have those rating just because of them effecting many universes at the same time and nobody bait an eye for that so not only low 2-C should be discussed but also 2-C,2-B and 2-A basically the entirety of tier 2 should also be going through this rule as well

 

[PrinceofPein]

It should be for all tiers 2 if I'm being honest here because there is alot verses have those rating just because of them effecting many universes at the same and nobody bait an eye for that so not only low 2-C should be discussed but also 2-C,2-B and 2-A basically the entirety of tier 2 should also be going through this rule as well

Not exactly, I will explain it in the thread

 

[Deadguy]

Not exactly, I will explain it in the thread

Not necessarily now maybe when the actual thread comes for it because this isn't the topic for it rn and it will be considered derailing

 

[Kingcrim212]

How did this go under so many peoples radars if these have always been our ratings? The amount of verses that are going to be affected by this is going to be a good amount. I agree as well this should be made a staff a thread to discuss this.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Or he created the beginning of time for those realms and they flow normally on their own from that point onward instead of creating all of time at once. Basically what the Big Bang does.

Yes both SS and WL has different timelines parallel to each other. SK created them.

Before Soul Society and Human World were created there was a different timeline.

Ichigo team thrown back to 7 days past of SS timeline. Yhwach was recreating the primordial world. So he definitely needs to destroy Both timelines of SS and WL.

 

[YukaSama4]

Just ask DT to come here, he is the most knowledgeable guy on the site when it comes to this so yeah.
The thread rn is boring and everyone repeating the same thing so we will reach 10 pages at this rate without anyone changing his opinion

 

[YukaSama4]

Also, I would suggest someone summarising the arguments from the OP and counter arguments from the other side so staff wont get confused when they read this thread because it was derailed so much.
Someone should present the arguments for why Yhwach should remain low 2C, I dont think Pain made new arguments so just read the OP to get his point

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

No you just don't understand what I said

Nope I understood perfectly.

And low 2c by this site is destruction of all set/collection of space from past, present and future

I am talking about the attributes of realm itself. Not destruction. Cosmology=/= destruction.

I am saying if there is a room that that does not fuse 1D time with its 3D space and changes does not occur in it, it's just a 3D space

And how is that relevant here??

Cause any movement in space during the bigbang was what created time (

How can movement happen if there is no time??
Movement requires moving some distance in set time. So how is that happening without time??

And yhwach was not destroying the entire collection of the time set of the said dangai, so yes still H3A feat

Dangai is the entire set. Its called a space-time. Not a slice/slices of space-time.

Um, that thread you linked was with the OP trying to claim space-time wasn't 4-D, or that time isn't a 4th dimension. "Space time =/= timeline or all time" wasn't mentioned or the subject of that thread at all from what I read.

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Q: How do temporal dimensions impact on tiering?

A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any amounts of dimensions, and is also the reason destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A). So, for example, a spacetime continuum comprising two temporal dimensions (Instead of just one) would have an additional time direction whose "snapshots" correspond to the whole of a 4-dimensional spacetime, and so on and so forth.

The thread I mentioned uses various times space-time as equivalent moniker of space-time continuum.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Also, I would suggest someone summarising the arguments from the OP and counter arguments from the other side so staff wont get confused when they read this thread because it was derailed so much.
Someone should present the arguments for why Yhwach should remain low 2C, I dont think Pain made new arguments so just read the OP to get his point

Yes both SS and WL has different timelines parallel to each other. SK created them.

Before Soul Society and Human World were created there was a different timeline.

Ichigo team thrown back to 7 days past of SS timeline. Yhwach was recreating the primordial world. So he definitely needs to destroy Both timelines of SS and WL.

^^^ what do you think. Is this enough.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Nope I understood perfectly.

Doubt

I am talking about the attributes of realm itself. Not destruction. Cosmology=/= destruction.

It doesn't change what I've been saying
All universe is low 2C by default, like leave bleach cosmology out of it
All universe is low 2c, our universe is low 2C
Because all universe have a past, present and a future, and that's a low 2C cosmology
Now destruction of a universe can be 3A or low 2C, and it all depends if you destroyed it along with its past and future.
Ultima said this

So, if you destroy the universe, but there is no evidence that it was destroyed across past and future, then you are not Low 2-C.

So yes that's what is low 2c

And how is that relevant here??

Very relevant

How can movement happen if there is no time??
Movement requires moving some distance in set time. So how is that happening without time?

Not movement, change. The moment change/movement began during bigbang time was created.
If there was a 3D space where time/change does not exist the moment change exist time begins to exist as time is just a unit to measure change.

Dangai is the entire set. Its called a space-time. Not a slice/slices of space-time.

And this is the part where I really want to make a staff thread. For the last time, any dimension or universe that has 3D space and 1D time is a space time. Our universe is a space time any universe is a space time, that does not mean Jack shit as destruction of it will still be 3A unless you are destroying it across the past and future.
So where is your proof that yh wach is destroying it across the past and future?
It's simple

So, if you destroy the universe, but there is no evidence that it was destroyed across past and future, then you are not Low 2-C.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Feels like I am talking to walls at this point
It's simple bring proof yhwach was going to destroy it across the past and future?
Then they proceed to use mental gymnastics to bypass the simple question

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It doesn't change what I've been saying
All universe is low 2C by default, like leave bleach cosmology out of it
All universe is low 2c, our universe is low 2C
Because all universe have a past, present and a future, and that's a low 2C cosmology

Glad we are on same page as far cosmology is concerned.

Now destruction of a universe can be 3A or low 2C, and it all depends if you destroyed it along with its past and future.
Ultima said this
So yes that's what is low 2c

Do you know why that is tho??
Its because universe as a term can be used freely by fiction to mean "space+matter" or "space-time".
While by default irl universe = space-time continuum( also explained in Tiering_System page), in fiction it can also mean "only space-matter".

It all depends on how "universe" as a word is used. Thats why it's destruction can be 3A or low2C. If a universe is refered to 3A part, then for low2C destruction you need further proof of "past, present, future" destruction as an evidence that time destruction was also involved in process.

Thus all of this is case by case basis.

And this is the part where I really want to make a staff thread. For the last time, any dimension or universe that has 3D space and 1D time is a space time. Our universe is a space time any universe is a space time, that does not mean Jack shit as destruction of it will still be 3A unless you are destroying it across the past and future.
So where is your proof that yh wach is destroying it across the past and future?
It's simple

With my above explanation and Tier FAQ quote from earlier comment in mind.

Lets look what Dangai is.
Its a separated space-time with spatial size greater than normal.
Thus by default it qualifies for low2C as a realm.

As far as destruction is concerned..... since the particular realm is already identified with space-time it already included "past, present and future" within it.
Destruction of Dangai = Destruction of everything associated with Dangai = space-time destruction = low2C.

 

[Stefano4444]

Regardless, this is going in circles and at this point, like I said, someone needs to make a staff thread to get a bigger discussion and clarification in on the Low 2-C rules.

And get it added to the main tiering page so this confusion doesnt come up again.

Yeah, we really need to discuss the "past, present and future" requirement and see if it should really be obligatory to reach Tier 2 or not.

Personally, i think that requirement shouldn't be obligatory for characters to be Tier 2, if characters can destroy/create/affect universal size space-times then they should be Tier 2 without doubt, no matter if they space-times had be destroyed/created/affected in either past or future.

But if i'm wrong and that requirement its obligatory for characters to be Tier 2, then we would need to check how many Tier 2 profiles trully possess that requirement in the first place, and if they don't have they have to be downgraded to 3-A/High 3-A.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yeah, we really need to discuss the "past, present and future" requirement and see if it should really be obligatory to reach Tier 2 or not.

Personally, i think that requirement shouldn't be obligatory for characters to be Tier 2, if characters can destroy/create/affect universal size space-times then they should be Tier 2 without doubt, no matter if they space-times had be destroyed/created/affected in either past or future.

But if i'm wrong and that requirement its obligatory for characters to be Tier 2, then we would need to check how many Tier 2 profiles trully possess that requirement in the first place, and if they don't have they have to be downgraded to 3-A/High 3-A.

Dude space-time by default include past, present and future within itself.
I even quoted the Tiering page FAQ above.

Even Google will tell you that about space-time and time etc.

We really need to stop misinterpreting the Tiering standards.

 

[Stefano4444]

Dude space-time by default include past, present and future within itself.

Fine, then we need to check how many Tier 2 characters that have show to actually affect both past, present and future.

Because at the moment many characters don't see to have that requirement and yet they are still Tier 2.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Fine, then we need to check how many Tier 2 characters that have show to actually affect both past, present and future.

Because at the moment many characters don't see to have that requirement and yet they are still Tier 2.

If you affect universal space-time or any realm that identifies with universal space-time, then they automatically include " affecting past, present and future".

Ergo, no further proof is required for Tier 2 then what I mentioned above.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

Click on the space-time continuum link. You will be taken to page on Wikipedia called... "Space-time"
Basically Space-time means same as timeline or space-time continuum. Its just short way of saying something. It means same.

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Q: How do temporal dimensions impact on tiering?​

​

​

A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any amounts of dimensions, and is also the reason destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A). So, for example, a spacetime continuum comprising two temporal dimensions (Instead of just one) would have an additional time direction whose "snapshots" correspond to the whole of a 4-dimensional spacetime, and so on and so forth.

 

[AppleLord]

OP is confused on how VSBW space time works.

 

[Stefano4444]

If you affect universal space-time or any realm that identifies with universal space-time, then they automatically include " affecting past, present and future".

Ergo, no further proof is required for Tier 2 then what I mentioned above.

Then apparently this isn't common knowledge or something that a majority of the site don't seen to agree.

Considering how many users in this very CRT think that simply destroy an universal space-time isn't enough to be Tier 2, unless its include past, present and future.

DBS had the same problem that turn any of its Tier 2 CRT (be a downgrade or an upgrade) to become a s**tshow.

 

[BleachHollow]

I believe before any changes are decided to be made, the Staff should resolve this misconception of the Tier 2 requirement Scale, as it does not only involve Bleach. Judging by this whole discussion that I have read, seems this isn't going anywhere unless a proper clarification is made on a staff thread, cause I believe ( if this revision goes through ) other Verses may have gotten their Tier 2 scale in the wrong way. IMO the revision thread should be made after a proper clarification. We need more Staff and knowledge members about this topic.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I believe before any changes are decided to be made, the Staff should resolve this misconception of the Tier 2 requirement Scale,

it shouldnt really be a misconception, as a Space-Time Continuum by default is Past, Present and Future, arguing against it is the same thing as saying that Sun Destruction statements are invalid unless the verse specifies that the sun is a 4.5 billion-year-old star – a hot glowing ball of hydrogen and helium at the center of our solar system. The Sun is about 93 million miles (150 million kilometers) from Earth, and without its energy, life as we know it could not exist here on our home planet.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

A universe is a space-time continuum yes.
destruction of a universe = 3A,yes.
destruction of a space-time continuum = low 2-C, yes as it's literally stated spacetime.
And we all ******* know what time is.

And this repeated statement and which you need to see statement of past,present and future seems ******** to me. Like almost no verse mentions this after a universe's destruction lmao.

Literally every universe is a space-time wtf? But does that mean any 3-a feat is low 2-c? NO. Why? Because to get to low 2-c we need evidence of the past present and future being destroyed.

 

[BleachHollow]

Literally every universe is a space-time wtf? But does that mean any 3-a feat is low 2-c? NO. Why? Because to get to low 2-c we need evidence of the past present and future being destroyed.

Can someone link where it says that we need evidence of the past, present, future being destroyed for low 2c?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Can someone link where it says that we need evidence of the past, present, future being destroyed for low 2c?

dude..

the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.

^ Thats what time is. If you are arguing he was destroying or affecting that, then you would need to prove that. As far as I know, the destruction was only spatial.
I

 

[Bernkastelll]

it doesnt even need to mention past present and future as thats the definition of Space-Time that bleach already aknowledges

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If you are arguing he was destroying or affecting that, then you would need to prove that. As far as I know, the destruction was only spatial.

Destruction of Dangai is low2C, cuz the realm is identified with spacetime not space alone.

 

[BleachHollow]

dude..

the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.

^ Thats what time is. If you are arguing he was destroying or affecting that, then you would need to prove that. As far as I know, the destruction was only spatial.
I

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but as I said I want where it is said on the VSB rules

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Then apparently this isn't common knowledge or something that a majority of the site don't seen to agree.

Considering how many users in this very CRT think that simply destroy an universal space-time isn't enough to be Tier 2, unless its include past, present and future.

DBS had the same problem that turn any of its Tier 2 CRT (be a downgrade or an upgrade) to become a s**tshow.

I mean the standards are clear cut. All that is need is people read it and understand it. And we cannot force people to read something.
General knowledge/awareness is beyond our control besides making the material easy to access and follow.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but as I said I want where it is said on the VSB rules

On the definition of low 2-c, it says you need to destroy a space-time continuum right...
So the destruction of space and time gets you to low 2-c...

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Destruction of Dangai is low2C, cuz the realm is identified with spacetime not space alone.

I don't have a problem with the realm having time in it, thats fine.

What I do have a problem with is that nothing implies time was being destroyed, only space. Thats why every universe busting feat isn't always low 2-c, because you need something indicating time was being destroyed as well, not just the universe being spatially destroyed.