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I agree with Arc for the record, will be waiting for the supposed counterarguments.
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- Status
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Not irrelevant, because its breaking the rules. So either follow them or keep out. Period.
And yet your still here. Besides, you have already been reported to the RVT for not only breaking the rule of a staff only thread, but the contributions you HAVE given here have not exactly been stellar.
Sorry to say, but if anyone shouldnt be crossing boundaries, it isnt me.
Yes and we have some, one of which whom we're waiting for to give, what we expect to be, an actual serious response.
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The OP should probably be changed to include/embolden the part where it says non-staff can participate if they're civil and contribute to the thread itself, as it comes off as dishonest and an attempt at censorship otherwise. That's all I want to say here, i'm neutral about 3-A/low 2-C/2-C bleach.
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I apologize in advance, I know this is primarily a staff thread but I feel this needs to be addressed. I won't comment anymore after this and I'll unwatch the thread once I'm done.
Okay, I've been watching this thread out of curiosity (my stance is as neutral as it gets, I haven't even seen Bleach it's the only HST anime I haven't seen yet) and while I don't have an opinion on the matter itself, I just want to ask this to LordGinSama: Could you please stop the attitude?
This behavior's really uncalled for and despite your claims, you're not giving criticism. You're just being flat-out rude, especially when you decided to bring in Fairy Tail for no reason and started incriminating others. Please stop.
Okay, I've been watching this thread out of curiosity (my stance is as neutral as it gets, I haven't even seen Bleach it's the only HST anime I haven't seen yet) and while I don't have an opinion on the matter itself, I just want to ask this to LordGinSama: Could you please stop the attitude?
This behavior's really uncalled for and despite your claims, you're not giving criticism. You're just being flat-out rude, especially when you decided to bring in Fairy Tail for no reason and started incriminating others. Please stop.
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This is literally why we wanted Staff Only with only a few non-staff allowed.
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Lol I'll just link Warren and I's arguments so they're "at the front" for when Imade makes his and y'all construct refutation.
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Likewise, I shared the same thoughts,
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At this point, can we just lock the thread until IMade is ready to present his counter argument?
We are supposed to be waiting for him to give his thoughts before the opposition can compile a counter argument, but every time we wait, new minor derailing arguments between people who arent even supposed to be replying to this thread comes up. And now we've reached the point where things are already, pardon my french, ******* horrendus.
We should lock the thread until IMades ready to prevent further derailment.
We are supposed to be waiting for him to give his thoughts before the opposition can compile a counter argument, but every time we wait, new minor derailing arguments between people who arent even supposed to be replying to this thread comes up. And now we've reached the point where things are already, pardon my french, ******* horrendus.
We should lock the thread until IMades ready to prevent further derailment.
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I agree with locking the thread. @DarkDragonMedeus can do it.
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Agreed, I think stepping back and getting calm is what’s best for everyone
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Locking this thread for now, can be reopoened later.
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Greetings again guys. I was given permission to have this thread re-opened, temporarily at least, so that I can go ahead and post my couther arguments to what's already posted (since im the one to do that here I guess).
I already had them developed for a day or so, but I wanted to be fair to IMade and wait a bit longer before asking to post them. However, he appears to be behind on when he said he'd post his stuff. I messaged him earlier today to even ask if I could go first or if I should wait on him, and I received no response yet. So It was agreed to let me post what I have.
Im also going to be busy with some things soon myself offline, so I'd rather post my stuff and get it out of the way now than to wait and get stuff in the way of it. Im going to ask everyone reading to please read everything I've typed up so nothing is actually missed. The counters will be split between multiple comments. Thank you.
I already had them developed for a day or so, but I wanted to be fair to IMade and wait a bit longer before asking to post them. However, he appears to be behind on when he said he'd post his stuff. I messaged him earlier today to even ask if I could go first or if I should wait on him, and I received no response yet. So It was agreed to let me post what I have.
Im also going to be busy with some things soon myself offline, so I'd rather post my stuff and get it out of the way now than to wait and get stuff in the way of it. Im going to ask everyone reading to please read everything I've typed up so nothing is actually missed. The counters will be split between multiple comments. Thank you.
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You know what’s funny about this scan here https://cdn.***************.com/file/AnimeRleases/bleachnovel_1.2_6_11.jpg the one u posted?? It’s Tokinada’s father explaining things to him. And if you read the next 2 pages he discovers everything his father told him was lie to hide the greatest sin of all.
“a cipher text carved into a stone monument, felt certain.
“Can…can this really be?! It is just as I imagined. No, it’s even more than I imagined!”
His family truly was made up of hopeless villains who were not even worth despising.
“We record the crimes of our ancestors here.”
After he had read the totality of the cipher text that began with that preamble, he sliced it apart with his own zanpaku-to.
“Guh ha ha ha…ha ha ha ha ha! I see… These are the dark innards of the Soul Society—and of the Tsunayashiro family!”
After he had laughed for some time, the man said to himself, “I never would have thought they would leave behind a monument like this. Was it so they would not forget their own sin? No, they likely left it behind as some sort of threat to the other clans. Oh, yes! It is exactly as I expected! It’s proof that the world works just the way I had guessed!”
The world was rotten, just as he had suspected, and it was even less salvageable than anyone could have imagined. With that truth before him, the man who had[…]”
Excerpt From
Bleach: Can’t Fear Your Own World, Vol. 2
Tite Kubo, Ryohgo Narita
This material may be protected by copyright.
“After the man had laughed for some time, thinking of what he could do because of that, he resolved himself.
If the world is duplicitous, then I should be duplicitous as well.
The Tsunayashiro family, which exists for nothing more than the sake of being despicable, ends here.
What meaning is there in an evil that exists only to be looked down upon and despised? It was all a fraud.
What am I to do if I am unable to go along with the lie?
Ahh, I will sing to the tune of my passions as my heart desires.
I may be destroyed by the Quincies, squashed by the Hollows, or sabotaged by my own hubris.
If the final days of the Soul Society are upon us, then I vow to bring about evil until that day.
There will be no necessary evils. My malice will be entirely needless as I laugh at this world!
What a joyous day!
The Soul Society’s history has validated that my malice is just!
The man, his soul etched in this way, left the hidden archives behind, his smile transforming into something wicked. The events of the day had given the man a[…]”
Excerpt From
Bleach: Can’t Fear Your Own World, Vol. 2
Tite Kubo, Ryohgo Narita
This material may be protected by copyright.
“a cipher text carved into a stone monument, felt certain.
“Can…can this really be?! It is just as I imagined. No, it’s even more than I imagined!”
His family truly was made up of hopeless villains who were not even worth despising.
“We record the crimes of our ancestors here.”
After he had read the totality of the cipher text that began with that preamble, he sliced it apart with his own zanpaku-to.
“Guh ha ha ha…ha ha ha ha ha! I see… These are the dark innards of the Soul Society—and of the Tsunayashiro family!”
After he had laughed for some time, the man said to himself, “I never would have thought they would leave behind a monument like this. Was it so they would not forget their own sin? No, they likely left it behind as some sort of threat to the other clans. Oh, yes! It is exactly as I expected! It’s proof that the world works just the way I had guessed!”
The world was rotten, just as he had suspected, and it was even less salvageable than anyone could have imagined. With that truth before him, the man who had[…]”
Excerpt From
Bleach: Can’t Fear Your Own World, Vol. 2
Tite Kubo, Ryohgo Narita
This material may be protected by copyright.
“After the man had laughed for some time, thinking of what he could do because of that, he resolved himself.
If the world is duplicitous, then I should be duplicitous as well.
The Tsunayashiro family, which exists for nothing more than the sake of being despicable, ends here.
What meaning is there in an evil that exists only to be looked down upon and despised? It was all a fraud.
What am I to do if I am unable to go along with the lie?
Ahh, I will sing to the tune of my passions as my heart desires.
I may be destroyed by the Quincies, squashed by the Hollows, or sabotaged by my own hubris.
If the final days of the Soul Society are upon us, then I vow to bring about evil until that day.
There will be no necessary evils. My malice will be entirely needless as I laugh at this world!
What a joyous day!
The Soul Society’s history has validated that my malice is just!
The man, his soul etched in this way, left the hidden archives behind, his smile transforming into something wicked. The events of the day had given the man a[…]”
Excerpt From
Bleach: Can’t Fear Your Own World, Vol. 2
Tite Kubo, Ryohgo Narita
This material may be protected by copyright.
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In case anyone was wondering, IMade did PM me to keep it closed and said he'd be available on Monday. But Monday already passed, and he's obviously been busy. We should be giving him more time and being fair for to him yes. But at the same time, it's also agreed we can't wait forever. But it wasn't me who opened the thread but someone else.
Just leaving that out there.
Just leaving that out there.
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Counters Against Warren's Response
Points To Concede To:
Mimihagi’s Stagnation
I wont be addressing Mimihagi as I think this can be dropped from the posts argument too; The stagnation evidence looks good and it doesn't take away anything from what the main argument for the downgrade is; Mimihagi’s part in this was seemingly brought in for very minor supporting purposes.
Points I Disagree With:
Yhwach Sustaining The Worlds
And by this, I mean I disagree with him stabilizing them, at all. Reiatsu or not. I'm questioning just how much of the original post was read when making this counter argument, because this was already dealt with. The original post already addressed this argument, in length, about why Yhwach doesn’t sustain the worlds in the Bleach Cosmology. Look for yourselves:
His death, neither the first time he was killed by Ichigo or the second time, caused the worlds to start collapsing like it did with Reio and Mimihagi’s deaths. The worlds began their collapse immediately when Reio was killed, and they began to collapse the moment Mimihagi was absorbed by Yhwach. But Yhwach’s death didn't do the same thing as the former 2’s deaths did. This would not have been the case if he did sustain the world’s. Jugram’s statement is the only thing that keeps this contradicted feat in existence, and because it's outright contradicted by this, it's not to be taken literally. Feats >>> Statements are the priority.
TL;DR: Nothing strongly supports Yhwach sustaining the worlds, Jugrams statement is inconsistent and not to be taken seriously because of said on-panel inconsistencies not aligning with his comment. That, and the point about Yhwach’s supposed stability feat being nuked along with Reio’s feat under the new sustenance standards still stands and still debunks the opposition here.
Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stabilization Requirements
Requirement 2 is the only requirement in the new standards that Weakened Reio arguably fits in with, and even that's shaky as I will address in my response to Arc after this.
It is not mentioned “numerous times” that he sustains the worlds. It's mentioned ONCE, through a statement that’s open to more than one interpretation of what it means. Adding to that, if it’s said “numerous times”, then those numerous examples should be very easy to be gathered and SHOWN here. But the lack of evidence should be telling enough on this part of the argument.
That, and Warren just completely missed the points about the quincies and the official English translation from CFYOW stating point blank that the Soul King stabilizes the universal flow of souls.
Counter Point: “Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died”
Again, im going to ask if the original post was read entirely or not. This was, again, already addressed in great detail in the original post too, and was explained why that doesn’t matter here. At all. The fact of the matter is, creation STARTED to fall apart immediately. But it did not HAPPEN and FINISH immediately, which is a blatant requirement for 3-A / Low 2-C feats. Look at the original post's point on this again guys:
Reason 4: The Soul King Stabilizing The Cosmology Isn't 3-A or Low 2-C
Outlined in our new standards for stabilization feats, one of the requirements is to prove that a character's stabilization is equal to the destructive output released by the structure's destruction. So if for example, for stabilization to be 3-A or Low 2-C, the character's sustenance would need to be able to rival the destructive output of a universe being completely destroyed instantly, or immediately. And that's not the case here for Bleach.
The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way. The Soul society violently shakes, Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent, and the world of the living gets a mild long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all.
Counter-argument: "Multiple characters make a point of saying without the Soul King the entire bleach universe would cease to be."
I keep seeing this get passed around, so I'm addressing it here. We seem to be at the point where claims of "the universe will cease to exist!" or anything similar as an end result of what happens is automatically enough to keep 3-A or Low 2-C ratings on the table. It isn't.
We know that "the universe would cease to be" is a thing as the end result of the Soul King no longer being alive to keep that from happening. But that being the conclusion doesn't at all matter here when looking at just how the destruction unfolds. The result of what happens in the end is completely irrelevant against the fact that the destruction itself isn't instant or immediate destruction. The destruction starts instantly / immediately, but it doesn't happen instantly / immediately, as you can see above. The destruction spans over an extensively long timeframe, to the point where nothing dimensionally even begins to deteriorate. And as mentioned, the destruction isn't even treated the same across all of the effected worlds.
The destruction happening here isn't 3-A destruction, let alone Low 2-C levels of it. So the Soul King wouldn't need output on either levels to stop the worlds from crumbling, even if he stabilizes the cosmology with power and not an alternate method. Now to get to the 2nd issue with this upgrade.
It doesn't matter when creation begins to fall apart here. What matters is how long it takes for creation to be destroyed and the extent of it.
Counter Points:
“Nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem”
“The CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately."
Okay. Les try and not turn this into a "Color of the sky is stated red vs Sky is shown as blue" discussion because outright ignoring what the source material clearly shows us is the only possible way this argument is going to have any standing here.
We don't care about it “not being mentioned”, nor do we “need a mention”, because WE OUTRIGHT SEE the destruction unfolding after the death of the Soul King. Why do we need to pivot to asking for clarification on the timeframe of the destruction? Why pivot to avoiding what the manga can, and does, show us? It is shown to not be immediate. The destruction across the worlds is happening slowly, over an extensively long timeframe, with the worlds all being affected differently from each other with the destruction being absolutely NO WHERE close to the scale of 3-A, let alone Low 2-C. The Soul Society shook violently and had buildings falling over. Hueco Mundo did the same thing more or less. And The Living World literally has no more than a MILD long lasting quake where not a single thing was getting destroyed, which was even noted to be the case ON-PANEL. Trying to get this argument accepted relies on an unsubstantiated reverse burden of proof that the original post already fulfilled, and strongly. The destruction by no means was going to be completed in the span of seconds or minutes to show destruction on that scale was happening in that instance. To ignore this point would be to completely ignore what the manga shows us and rely on statements whose interpretations do not at all align with what’s being depicted and given in the source material. And that, for a lack of a better word, is being intellectually dishonest.
And on that note about the novel statement, a small reminder should be pointed out here that the "Cant Fear Your Own World" novel is considered secondary canon on this site. The manga for Bleach is the source material, and is 100% the primary canon source to be taking evidence from. The very fact that a novel statement about the worlds "likely crumbling immediately" comes from a source of lesser canonicity, and doesn't align with the depiction that the primary canon shows us, should be telling enough to everyone on both sides on why these statements have 0 bearing. And are ultimately irrelevant to use as a counter argument against this downgrade.
Counter-Point: “Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.”
This also isn’t enough to sustain this scaling to AP/Durability (not that it really matters). Even if the sustaining is done with Reiatsu, the fact that it’s being focused into sustaining the cosmology as proclaimed, would mean that the reiatsu when used for anything else isn't anywhere close to as strong and would need more evidence to prove that amount of power can be used all at once towards attack potency and durability. This is actually precisely why it’s outlined as a requirement in the new standards in the first place, since sustenance feats are assumed by default to not scale.
After all, if non god tiers are able to fight against and dispose of Yhwach’s and Reio’s Reiatsu when going against them, it becomes a fairly large anti feat against Reiatsu being used at Low 2-C levels when not used for sustenance due to these major inconsistencies. And these non god tiers includes a CHILD mind you.
First Evidence: Reio's Eyeball Creatures
When in the middle of devouring the Soul King, Yhwach releases torrents of Reio's reiatsu in the form of eyeball creatures and sends them to attack Shinigami:
Shinigami as high into Captain class and lower than assistant captain class were able to fight against these creatures made by Reio's power. Easily.
Sui-Feng receives no much as a scratch against an entire gang of them when using her Bankai, and Omaeda smashes through them with no trouble either.
Hisagi, Ikkaku and Yumichika can attack these creatures and not get wiped out by being so much as near them.
Byakuya literally blasts away an entire wave of these creatures with extreme ease using Senbon-Zakura. The strength of these creatures, who are supposed to be made by Low 2-C Reiatsu, are treated as blatant fodder compared to these guys, making the disadvantage in numbers and an attrition battle the only difficulty in wiping them all out. Which is why Aizen was used to dispose of them all at the same time in one shot.
Thats not where this ends either.
Second Evidence: Yhwach's Reiatsu Remnants
By the end of the Bleach manga, remnants of Yhwach's reiatsu appear in the Soul Society. Byakuya and other captains go to dispose of it:
But before they get the chance to, Ichigo's son Kazui Kurosaki destroys the last remnant of Yhwach's power that also appeared in The World of The Living, confirmed by Aizen:
This supposed Low 2-C Reiatsu is shown, one way or another, to be countered by people who have absolutely no business touching this tier of power, and aren't acknowledged to despite the upgrades. This leaves a great deal of skepticism on this argument, much less how scaling is supposed to be done in comparison. Is this Reiatsu simply not Low 2-C when used offensively? Are Low 2-C non-god tiers a thing now for fighting against Low 2-C power without so much as getting a scratch? Low 2-C Captains? Low 2-C Lieutenants? Or biggest of all, Low 2-C Kazui? How can they so much as even stand in the general presence of Low 2-C energy...without being Low 2-C themselves?
TL;DR- This entire part of the argument, no offense, amounts to pretty much nothing to argue against the main actual point from the original post. The main point is that the destruction of the worlds when no longer supported by the Soul King isn't 3-A or Low 2-C as the destruction isn’t immediate, it happens over an extensively long timeframe, and is just unquantifiable at the most. To say otherwise is to take statements over a blatant portrayal, which is being intellectually dishonest and going against the source material. The Soul King fits almost none of the newly created stability standards besides arguably Requirement 2, and that’s a stretch itself since, more or less, there’s major inconsistencies with the reiatsu scaling to Low 2-C offensively as non god tiers are capable of fighting against both the Soul King and Yhwach’s Reiatsu, which suggests that their Reiatsu isn’t anywhere close to that strong when used offensively, assuming the stability feat is Low 2-C to begin with.
A clear choice needs to be made here. Either these several characters get a Low 2-C upgrade, or this Reiatsu being Low 2-C when used offensively is too inconsistent, which as a result, invalidates Yhwach using reiatsu that wouldn't be strong enough to destroy the worlds.
Silver Arrow Being Unreliable
The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.Uryu’s Antithesis’s abilities work by being able to completely reverse anything that already happened between two targets. Pay close attention to the word TWO.
For Warren’s argument on the Antithesis being used to make sense, Uryu would have needed to have another target present with him to shoot first before reversing what happened to that target onto Yhwach. And there’s no evidence of this being present in that moment. This would be stacking an assumption, on-top of another assumption, in an attempt to counter the silver arrow. Without a second target being proved to be involved, it would be impossible for Uryu to use Antithesis on the arrow and then on Yhwach. As a smaller nitpick, this argument also assumes the Antithesis can transport physical objects when reversing the events, despite Uryu never displaying a feat like this with Antithesis. Going off this, that's stacking 3 assumptions on top of each other.
Adding to the aforementioned points, going off the “crumbs” of the scene, we see smoke coming out of Uryu’s quincy bow immediately after Yhwach is hit with the arrow, while facing Yhwach's direction:
This strongly goes against the Antithesis argument and supports the arrow being fired normally. Which anyone under normal circumstances would assume that Uryu just up and fired the bow at Yhwach. You’d have to go through a number of different mental gymnastics to deny this being the case, just as the argument on positioning does.
A viable and less argumentative assumption to make, instead of making leaps in logic on Uryu's position, is to blame Kubo for terrible paneling. The depiction of the arrow is displayed as Uryu shooting Yhwach from the back, which has to imply he’s behind Yhwach to do that. The arrow being portrayed as shooting Yhwach from behind, when the implication from Warren’s argument is supposed to be Uryu being in front of Yhwach, makes no sense.
TL;DR- Uryu didn't use Antithesis here, he couldn’t have used Antithesis and no direct evidence says he did. The more viable explanation here is that he just shot Yhwach normally with his bow, which has direct support and takes far less assumptions to make.
Stabilization “Irrelevant” to the “Real” Scaling & other things
No offense, but this last part of Warren’s counters pretty much just says that everything in the original post wasn't entirely read. The original post literally acknowledged Reio’s creation feat, in the beginning and at the end, and we addressed it not mattering for the downgrade for 2 reasons. It's done with Almighty, which is a hax, and that the official translations for CFYOW’s details on the feat are not going to be made available for a couple months.The stability feat from the Weakened Soul King is being used as strong support for the upgrades in the first place statistics and scaling wise, it is absolutely 100% relevant and crucial to these current upgrades. And we’ll go into these details again from the original post on why it is.
Yhwach being superior to Mimihagi and the WSK (well just Mimihagi actually but that's another discussion) is 100% irrelevant now with the stability feat gone. Why? Because without the stability feat amounting to anything, the WSK’s power and Mimihagi’s power are just unknown / unquantifiable now, which means Yhwach being superior to them in power and absorbing their strength just means he’s superior to them by an unknown extent. Same thing for Ichigo, who’s Low 2-C status comes from scaling to Yhwach, who scales above Weakened Reio and Mimihagi, whose power is unquantifiable / unknown without the stability feat. Making Yhwach and Ichigo's power by default unquantifiably above where they were at before the upgrades. So by absorbing the power of people who aren’t Low 2-C in the first place without the stability feat, Yhwach having the power to perform a feat on a Low 2-C level is now extremely questionable without the stability feat cementing the scaling. It was used as support before, and it's made totally irrelevant now. It should be extremely clear on why absorbing unknown power from others doesn’t support a tier jump. Much less a 15 tier jump difference.
Counter Point: “Please explain how absorbing people that he is already stronger than makes him logically incapable of performing a great feat? Absorbing the strength of those you are stronger than doesn’t make you weaker than them initially or dependent on them for a significant boost in power.”
Let me make this reminder here clear. The original post never said he gets weaker when absorbing people he’s stronger than. It was said that absorbing them makes him stronger than before by an unquantifiable extent. As in, he isn't getting boosted by Low 2-C power anymore, he's getting boosted by unknown levels of power that cant be quantified.
How this got mixed up is confusing, which makes this even more confusing on how this isn't making sense.
This counter argument is defending an unquantifiable boost in power being enough evidence for not one TIER jump, not FIVE tier jumps, but 15 TIER jumps, and with literally nothing viable to use for defending it. With all the possible evidence in the world used to defend such an incredible jump in power, a boost that can be as weak or as strong as literally anything, this is what somehow justifies a drastic power spike on this level? I genuinely am not understanding how this is unclear or does not make sense when this is something we literally don't do, have never done, and as far as I know, would never do because of how vague and unsupported it is. It’s highballing to an unheard of extent, and no one can't sit here pretending it isn't. This isn’t a fallacy, it’s an argument against evidence that is so brittle, egg shells are harder to break than this.
Counter-Point: “Yhwach was explicitly stated to desire to create a world without the fear of Death”
This, again, was addressed in the original post too on why this point is completely irrelevant. We know what his plans and intentions were. We shouldn't care about what Yhwach wanted to do to the worlds, because intention isn’t the end-all deciding factor in tiering feats. What matters at the end of the day isn’t intention, but how the feat is to be done and the means to completing it. Simple as that. And Yhwach doesn’t meet that standard with this. He has nothing solid supporting him to say he could do as claimed beyond any level of reasonable doubts. Meaning no, the “villain troupe” argument does not apply to him for the reasons the original post already gave. This argument, again, stems down to what Yhwach was intending to do vs what Yhwach was actually doing, feat wise. And the latter isn’t enough to grant a huge tier jump.
Meaning no, this isn’t “pure unadulterated headcanon”, because this isn't a perfect world where statements are enough evidence for what people are asking for here.
Ganju “Being” a Credible Source & His Statement on Garganta
Once again, i'm going to kindly ask that people against this upgrade take the time and actually read the entire post so they can know what it actually addresses. Otherwise, you would have seen that “power levels” weren’t the reason Ganju is argued to be low on the credibility meter as a source of information.Just as Warren says it's possible for Ganju to be credible per his place in a royal clan, it's also entirely possible he isn’t. Ganju is just an ordinary person. He isn’t Urahara, Yoruichi, Yhwach or anyone who’s shown to be well experienced in matters regarding the state or makeup of their own universe, he is someone with little importance in the verse and makes the idea of him being knowledgeable on very important information like this just because of his standing in a royal clan debatable. This has nothing to do with the power of the character, it has to do with their experience and if they're a credible source to take. This is to akin to just slapping 3-A on any character because of some rando saying they would destroy the universe, which we obviously wouldnt take as any evidence. Hence, we look at that character's history to determine if they're someone reasonably trustworthy to take their word on without leaving ourselves open to inflating feats. And this is the same thing with Ganju. You have to go off possibilities and, once again, mental gymnastics to try and make this statement stick.
Even then, the original post already explained why Ganju’s statement wouldnt apply to Yhwach, credibility or no credibility. But the apparent bombshell evidence that Yhwach could 100% effect the Garganta comes from the fact that he planned to?
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I'll be addressing Arc's response next, but before I do that, I want to put this into its own response so it gets more focus.
This is the last thing that I will say here on this point about “planning” arguments coming from characters.
There was a time where our standards were held to a much, much higher level of scrutiny than this and required much more evidence and supportive backing in order to make a notable change in profiles, whether that be a large change in hax abilities or bumping characters to being several tiers above what they were previously. Now we go with accepting things that go anywhere from characters lacking tier 7 feats, having genuine anti-feats and a large lack in supporting feats to being bumped to Multiversal level on the basis of what could very easily be considered flowery language or statements lacking in the credibility department. This, however, was at least manageable where arguments have some kind of a basis behind them, right or wrong. But now, we’re dealing with "intention arguments" where people are accepting intentions from what a character has for an objective as core evidence.
If far more concrete evidence than this have led to characters getting only a “Possibly” or “Likely” rating for upgrades on this site, it should make an upgrade like this one here, under this premise, very questionable. It’s almost as if people have forgotten the concept of what extraordinary evidence actually means, because this most certainly doesn’t fall under that definition. Climbing tiers means you need to give more evidence the higher you go, and a character's intentions for what they want to do don’t mean they are guaranteed to be able to do that. If this evidence is used purely as a supporting argument? Then sure, that is solid to back main evidence up. But this evidence being used as the main core reason to keep an upgrade in its entirety? Without any supporting feats, viable scaling, or factors that can actually be considered concrete evidence? That just doesn’t seem to be concrete enough to give a proper rating and it needs to make us more self-aware of what should and what shouldnt be good enough to give upgrades here.
This is the last thing that I will say here on this point about “planning” arguments coming from characters.
Character Intentions vs Burden of Proof
I'll be honest here. Our standards for requiring concrete evidence, which are not perfect by any sense of the word and have already been set on a bar with new lows, has been lowered even further to levels where the intention of the character and statements by themselves are somehow solid enough evidences to accept upgrades so drastically large like this one. And that's a problem.There was a time where our standards were held to a much, much higher level of scrutiny than this and required much more evidence and supportive backing in order to make a notable change in profiles, whether that be a large change in hax abilities or bumping characters to being several tiers above what they were previously. Now we go with accepting things that go anywhere from characters lacking tier 7 feats, having genuine anti-feats and a large lack in supporting feats to being bumped to Multiversal level on the basis of what could very easily be considered flowery language or statements lacking in the credibility department. This, however, was at least manageable where arguments have some kind of a basis behind them, right or wrong. But now, we’re dealing with "intention arguments" where people are accepting intentions from what a character has for an objective as core evidence.
If far more concrete evidence than this have led to characters getting only a “Possibly” or “Likely” rating for upgrades on this site, it should make an upgrade like this one here, under this premise, very questionable. It’s almost as if people have forgotten the concept of what extraordinary evidence actually means, because this most certainly doesn’t fall under that definition. Climbing tiers means you need to give more evidence the higher you go, and a character's intentions for what they want to do don’t mean they are guaranteed to be able to do that. If this evidence is used purely as a supporting argument? Then sure, that is solid to back main evidence up. But this evidence being used as the main core reason to keep an upgrade in its entirety? Without any supporting feats, viable scaling, or factors that can actually be considered concrete evidence? That just doesn’t seem to be concrete enough to give a proper rating and it needs to make us more self-aware of what should and what shouldnt be good enough to give upgrades here.
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Once again, incredibly professional and in-depth work from Kukui. I really don't have anything to say but to congratulate him. His response addresses every possible argument that Warren laid out and exposes the issues with the ratings once again, thoroughly.
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Counters for Arc’s Argument:
2nd Issue: Threat From The Quincies
Next obvious issue is the entire threat the Bleach Cosmology faces from the Quincies. Infinite souls existing in the verse would make it completely impossible for the Quincies to destroy the balance of souls across the worlds in the first place, as the balance would be impossible to break to begin with. The balance of souls would naturally restore itself and prevent itself from going out of whack.
3rd Issue: Shinigami Being Balancers
Going right along with the previous point is the concept of Shinigami’s being considered balancers in contrast to Quincies. They have to monitor the number of souls that are present within the Soul Society and The World of the Living at all times, and must actively take action to balance them by sending souls between the 2 worlds. Sending dead souls to live in the Soul Society, and then sending them back to the living world as living beings. The sole fact that Shinigami monitor the souls across the worlds alone speaks to the soul cycle being finite in amount as you cant track the balance of something being infinite. On top of that, them actively making sure that an equal number of souls exist between the worlds at all times further says that infinite souls isn't the case.
The problem with these statements is that they tend to be hyperbolic and not literal. Especially when its very existence brings conflictions and major inconsistencies that were mentioned above, problems that you can only solve by going through a number of different mental gymnastics to create possible solutions out of nowhere in order to defend this ONE statement that should be taken no more than a grain of salt at best. What should be gleaned from these statements is the fact that the individual saying them is suggesting that they have an over abundance of resources or power at their disposal and not that they literally have an infinite number of XYZ. This is EXTREMELY common in fiction, so much that its not funny, and I have several examples of similar moments to name here that aren’t accepted on this site like it's being asked here for Bleach.
Kizaru, to start us off, has a databook statement saying he can shoot infinite numbers of light bullets, from the databook we currently use to give One Piece their light speed ratings:
Blackbeard proclaims to be able to create infinite gravity, AND compress people with infinite power:
Charlotte Cracker creating infinite biscuit soldiers:
Impel Dawn’s hell being infinite in size too:
None of these examples are accepted here for One Piece.
But 2-A Fairy Tail isn’t on the table as you can see.
Might Guy’s databook entry on Asakujaku being one, stating to punch out opponents with an infinite number of fists:
Another Naruto example is the Juubi / Ten Tails being claimed to have near infinite chakra by Obito:
Both examples are obviously not viable here. Guy doesn't have infinite speed, or infinite hands, and near infinite chakra quite clearly refers to large reserves of chakra for the ten tails.
https://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1063/20154000/3.jpg
Neither of them at this point are considered anything higher than High 4-C, and it took new feats and scaling and a bunch of discussions to finally get 17 into the 3-A and Low 2-C range by the time of Super. Infinite energy supply just refers to their unlimited reverses of stamina.
Multi-Solar System level (Possessed by the power of the Master Crown and is no more than a manifestation of the crown, which was portrayed above other ancient artifacts and repeatedly claimed to have "infinite power" whereas the Lor Starcutter wasn't, indicating an interpretably vast superiority over it.
And not once in the history of this wikia have we ever accepted it for Magolor, despite how much the infinite power statement has been thrown around so many times. Despite HOW BLATANT this claim is, it still means nothing here. Which is why he’s not rated as anything higher than 4-A.
I could continue to name cases of this all day, but we’d be here forever. All of this shows the point that infinite anything is taken as nothing more than a grain of salt here as it's almost never accepted because of how vague and poetic the statements are, so we give them incredible amounts of skepticism and require them to have large quantities of evidence to have any chance in getting accepted. And Bleach’s infinite soul statement gets the exact same treatment, especially due to the fact that “infinite” in this context can also very easily be referring to the fact that souls in Bleach are endlessly renewable. They are sent back and forth between the 2 worlds in a reincarnation cycle that's endless, which in that sense, is “infinite” because it's an eternal cycle. But that doesn’t mean that the souls here are literally infinite in numbers. The only time souls being renewable is an exception is when Quincies completely erradicate hollows and remove them from the cycle permanently, which was why they were a threat to the soul cycle.
TL;DR- This statement creates far more inconsistencies than it does actual consistency. It’s a one time only statement, It goes against the nature, laws and makeup of the verse, using material that this site rejects in next to every case, with countless other verses, without having a huge abundance of evidence supporting it, along with the very possible chance that it's hyperbole and using poetic language to refer to the soul cycle. Once again, this is another example of having to use many levels of mental gymnastics and going through many layers of speculation in order to give this statement any viable backing to be accepted here without simply going with what takes FAR LESS amounts of leaps in logic to make. And that is the statement is just wrong and should be outright rejected.
Either way, Garganta isn't infinite, due to the things above and also solely from the fact that it's not accepted as infinite here. Otherwise, Bleach would be sitting at High 3-A as the bare minimum from the upgrades, not 3-A. Which means the infinite size statement wasn't accepted. If you disagree, get it in a new CRT to get it accepted. Officially.
The Soul King Stabilizing Both The Worlds & Soul Cycle
First, the original post did not assume that the mechanism for the Soul King stabilizing the worlds was via the flow of souls; the original post said that the statement could be misinterpreted and that the upgrade ignored ANOTHER viable interpretation of the statement, an interpretation that has support backing it.
But more importantly, this isn’t how this works here. You cannot have your cake and eat it too from this. It’s either the Soul King stabilizes the world’s, OR he stabilizes the soul cycle, not both at once. Going with this copout is just attempting to ignore the burden of proof fallacy to provide information thats now required more than ever. Not to mention, this point hurts your argument and helps mine more than it does yours, as it makes it even more questionable as to what the Soul King stabilizes exactly and to what extent, which makes it even more shaky to be considered a feat. And with our new stability standards in place, that's damaging information.
First, the source of this statement. Where does this statement about the Soul King’s Reiryoku come from? What Novel? What chapter? I’ve read part of CFYOW myself and have not come across that, so i’d like a precise source of where this screenshot’s statement comes from to validate it source-wise please.
The second reason I am still against this idea of Reiryoku or Reiatsu used to stabilize the worlds is not just because of what the original post laid out for Yhwach, but also the ending of the Bleach manga conflicting with this. By the end of the manga, Yhwach’s Reiatsu gets destroyed completely. We see this happen when the Soul Society actively hunts down to dispose of Yhwach’s reiatsu, and Kazui Kurosaki removing the last remnants of it as confirmed by Aizen. Despite his reiatsu being removed, the worlds were completely unaffected by that. Why would that be the case if Reiatsu was used to stabilize the worlds?
We no longer use the idea that X higher dimensions/higher dimensional power is infinitely superior than Y lower dimensions by default anymore. You need to give strong evidence to prove the verse in particular treats higher D things as infinitely superior, otherwise they are treated as unknown / unquantifiable and are not given a tier off of that by itself. This is why someone with even 20-Dimensional power can still be as low as 10-C. Without evidence of it being infinitely superior, it does not grant a tier whatsoever.
So in the case of bleach here, effecting a 4-D structure over a finite amount of time instead of instantly / immediately destroying it is just unquantifiable 4-D energy that grants no tier. It’s not infinitely above 3-D energy by default, and it most certainly isn't Low 2-C without actual feats of it being that strong. The same goes for Yhwach’s plans of destroying the worlds as per Askin’s comment. You need more context than this to reach Low 2-C, and as the original post pointed out, statements by itself shouldnt by any means be enough to give a 15 tier climb. And yes, the WSK’s rating DOES call into the statements validity into question, because we are Feats >>> Statements. And Yhwach not getting a Low 2-C boost by the WSK’s rating anymore and having Reio's reiatsu resisted by non-god tiers would most certainly make the statements questionable.
Once again, i'm going to kindly ask that people against this upgrade take the time and actually read the entire post so they can know what it actually addresses. Otherwise, you would have seen that “power levels” weren’t the reason we consider Ganju low on the credibility meter as a source of information.
Just as Warren said it's possible for Ganju to be credible per his place in a royal clan, it's also entirely possible he isn’t. This is the same guy who's scared and blatantly a non-factor in nearly any relevant thing the characters have done during extreme threats and hasn’t been depicted as someone knowledgeable on what speaks about. But more to the point here is that Ganju is just an ordinary everyday person. He isn’t Urahara, Yoruichi, Yhwach or anyone who’s shown to be well experienced in matters regarding the state or makeup of their own universe, he is someone with little importance in the verse. If I walk up to an ordinary person and ask if someone can do things they realistically can't, and they say they can, are you going to take what they say as a credible answer? Of course not, and this is the same thing. You have to go off possibilities and, once again, mental gymnastics to try and make a statement stick. This basically says if a random everyday person says someone can destroy the universe, 3-A gets slapped on as an upgrade just like that.
The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.
Uryu’s Antithesis’s abilities work by being able to completely reverse anything that already happened between two targets. Pay close attention to the word TWO.
For Warren’s argument on the Antithesis being used to make sense, Uryu would have needed to have another target present with him to shoot first before reversing what happened to that target onto Yhwach. And there’s no evidence of this being present in that moment. This would be stacking an assumption, ontop of another assumption, in an attempt to counter the silver arrow. Without a second target being proved to be involved, it would be impossible for Uryu to use Antithesis on the arrow and then on Yhwach. As a smaller nitpick, this argument also assumes the Antithesis can transport physical objects when reversing the events, despite Uryu never displaying a feat like this with Antithesis. Going off this, that's stacking 3 assumptions on top of each other.
Adding to the aforementioned points, going off the “crumbs” of the scene, we see smoke coming out of Uryu’s quincy bow immediately after Yhwach is hit with the arrow, while facing Yhwach's direction:
This strongly goes against the Antithesis argument and supports the arrow being fired normally. Which anyone under normal circumstances would assume that Uryu just up and fired the bow at Yhwach. You’d have to go through a number of different mental gymnastics to deny this being the case, just as the argument on positioning does.
A viable and less argumentative assumption to make, instead of making leaps in logic on Uryu's position, is to blame Kubo for terrible paneling. The depiction of the arrow is displayed as Uryu shooting Yhwach in the back, which has to imply he’s behind Yhwach to do that. The arrow being portrayed as shooting Yhwach from behind, when the implication from Warren’s argument is supposed to be Uryu being in front of Yhwach, makes no sense.
TL;DR- Uryu didn't use Antithesis here, he couldn’t have used Antithesis and no direct evidence says he did. The more viable explanation here is that he just shot Yhwach normally with his bow, which has direct support and takes far less assumptions to make.
I disagree with him stabilizing them, at all. Reiatsu or not. I'm going to question just how much of the original post was actually read when making this counter argument, because this was already dealt with.
The original post already addressed this argument, in length already, about why Yhwach doesn’t sustain the worlds in the Bleach Cosmology. His death, neither the first time he was killed by Ichigo or the second time, caused the worlds to start collapsing like it did with Reio and Mimihagi’s deaths. The worlds began their collapse immediately when Reio was killed, and they began to collapse the moment Mimihagi was absorbed by Yhwach. But Yhwach’s death didn't do the same thing as the former 2’s deaths did. This would not have been the case if he did sustain the world’s.
Jugram’s statement is the only thing that keeps this contradicted idea in existence, and because it's so outright contradicted, it's not to be taken literally. Feats >>>>> Statements as the priority.
In addition, the ending of the Bleach manga conflicts with Yhwach sustaining the worlds as well since the soul society spent time and effort to destroy the remnants of Yhwach’s reiatsu; and when Kazui Kurosaki, Ichigo’s son, destroyed more of it, Aizen made the confirmation that the last of Yhwach’s reiatsu was destroyed and the world’s were completely unaffected by this happening.
TL;DR- Nothing strongly supports Yhwach sustaining the worlds, Jugrams statement is inconsistent and not to be taken seriously because of said on-panel inconsistencies. That, and the point about Yhwach’s supposed stability feat being nuked along with Reio’s remains unchanged and overall still debunks the opposition here.
This can be compared to an analogy of why this type of scaling doesnt work. This is like a child trying to carry a rocket launcher. He won’t be able to do it at his age, but when he grows up, he’ll be able to carry the rocket launcher and shoot out 8-B missles. Doesn’t mean the dude is anywhere near 8-B after growing up when doing that. It just means he became strong enough to support and fire the 8-B weapon.
And for what its worth, we also dont do this kind of scaling here for other series with similar circumstances. Is Deku now 7-B because he needed to be physically strong enough to wield and handle One for All, despite not being anywhere close to All Might's level when first using it? Is Roshi now 5-C reguarly because he needs to use up all of his energy to use Mafuba, a seal that can fail even when Low 2-C Goku tried using it without dying? Is Nagato 6-C regularly for having and Rinnegan, something that requires massively large quantities of chakra, and is something even above Nagato's individual power?
Lets go under the assumption that Weakened Reio is still Low 2-C. Almighty Yhwach is treated by us as being above Weakened Reio. This gives big problems, because going by the logic of this argument, Low 2-C power in general is needed to use the Almighty, since if Almighty Yhwach is >>> Weakened Soul King, who you guys still consider to be Low 2-C, and Almighty scales to Yhwach's attack potency, that would mean Yhwach was always Low 2-C and Yhwach regularly is Low 2-C as he would need Low 2-C power to wield Almighty in the first place.
This then scales to a lot of different characters. Yamamoto would be scaling to Low 2-C since he and Yhwach 1000 of years prior to the series could not kill each other and Yhwach considered Prime Yamamoto a beast; The 5 War Potentials would arguably scale based off the very fact that Yhwach was concerned with them and made the Sternritter be wary of them, which makes no sense unless they were Low 2-C themselves for Yhwach to see them as a threat; On top of that, Ichibei would at least be the one member of Zero Squad who’d be scaling to Low 2-C since he outright fights Yhwach before and after the Almighty appeared without getting instantaneously stomped.
After that comes Jugram once again; Jugram was able to use Almighty in Yhwach’s place, which would mean he would need Low 2-C power to even remotely wield the Almighty; And no, it being a weaker Almighty does not change the fact that he’d need to be in the same realm of Low 2-C power as Yhwach is, or else using the Almighty is impossible from the start for a non Low 2-C. A weaker Almighty just means Jugram is a weaker Low 2-C than Yhwach is, so Low 2-C Jugram for using Almighty on some level now comes from this.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Uryu and likely Low 2-C Sternritters; Uryu lasted against Almighty Jugram, and made Jugram struggle afterwards, so he’d scale, and Sternritters likely scale to either Jugram or Uryu if memory serves me right.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Captains and Assistant Captains who'd be Low 2-C for fighting the Sternritters .
Very easily, this logic results in over 20+ characters magically scaling to the upgrades, which creates inconsistency after inconsistency with every passing moment and makes this much more outlierish. And this is all on the premise that Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency, which as explained, shouldn't be scaling.
So a choice needs to be made. Either the Almighty doesn’t scale to attack potency and is treated as pure hax, or many characters end up scaling to the upgrades to make this incredibly inconsistent.
Points I am ignoring:
Hell Verse Argument- Entirely non-canon movie, so self-explanatory; We don’t consider it canon for anything here, making the point in it being mentioned here in the first place confusing and cluttering up the actual point of this thread; This is a downgrade thread, not a thread to discuss replacement upgrades.
- Gremmy has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread either; this thread, again, is to disprove the current upgrades, not discuss alternate scaling for the characters. That can be done, and needs to be done, in its own thread. Plus, Gremmy himself has already been a controversial topic with the high level upgrades recently proposed for him in a thread, so he should definitely have his own thread re-made at a later point if it comes to it.
Memories of Nobodies Argument
- See above, this is the same as Gremmy. Has nothing to do with this thread, this thread is for different purposes, and this should have its own thread to discuss too.
Points I Disagree With:
The Infinite Souls Statement
I see we’re starting with this. Anyway, I'm opposed to this statement of infinite souls (which, as a small reminder, has not been accepted in a CRT of its own yet) due to the large number of inconsistencies surrounding it.1st Issue: Lack of Consistency
For starter’s...the consistency of the statement itself. This is a single statement that never appears again in any later arc, which doesn’t make it as consistent as claimed to be. That makes the legitimacy of the statement questionable.2nd Issue: Threat From The Quincies
Next obvious issue is the entire threat the Bleach Cosmology faces from the Quincies. Infinite souls existing in the verse would make it completely impossible for the Quincies to destroy the balance of souls across the worlds in the first place, as the balance would be impossible to break to begin with. The balance of souls would naturally restore itself and prevent itself from going out of whack.
3rd Issue: Shinigami Being Balancers
Going right along with the previous point is the concept of Shinigami’s being considered balancers in contrast to Quincies. They have to monitor the number of souls that are present within the Soul Society and The World of the Living at all times, and must actively take action to balance them by sending souls between the 2 worlds. Sending dead souls to live in the Soul Society, and then sending them back to the living world as living beings. The sole fact that Shinigami monitor the souls across the worlds alone speaks to the soul cycle being finite in amount as you cant track the balance of something being infinite. On top of that, them actively making sure that an equal number of souls exist between the worlds at all times further says that infinite souls isn't the case.
4th Issue: Cant Fear Your Own World
The CFYOW novel also debunks the idea of infinite souls since if there were an infinite number of souls, they wouldn't all be eaten and formed into one single Hollow. It would take an infinite amount of time to eat them all, as well as an infinite amount of time to be formed.5th Issue: Hyperbole & Poetic Language
The biggest problem out of them all. On top of the aforementioned issues, this one is a whole can of worms itself from the very fact that the entire infinite souls statement itself seems similar to statements such as “I have infinite power?” or “I have countless means at my disposal!”, etc.The problem with these statements is that they tend to be hyperbolic and not literal. Especially when its very existence brings conflictions and major inconsistencies that were mentioned above, problems that you can only solve by going through a number of different mental gymnastics to create possible solutions out of nowhere in order to defend this ONE statement that should be taken no more than a grain of salt at best. What should be gleaned from these statements is the fact that the individual saying them is suggesting that they have an over abundance of resources or power at their disposal and not that they literally have an infinite number of XYZ. This is EXTREMELY common in fiction, so much that its not funny, and I have several examples of similar moments to name here that aren’t accepted on this site like it's being asked here for Bleach.
1st Example: One Piece
One Piece has multiple of these moments to choose from as an example of why we dont take these statements seriously without some EXTREME backing.Kizaru, to start us off, has a databook statement saying he can shoot infinite numbers of light bullets, from the databook we currently use to give One Piece their light speed ratings:
Blackbeard proclaims to be able to create infinite gravity, AND compress people with infinite power:
Charlotte Cracker creating infinite biscuit soldiers:
Impel Dawn’s hell being infinite in size too:
None of these examples are accepted here for One Piece.
2nd Example: Fairy Tail
Fairy Tail has an example as well. Ultear outright states she creates infinite possible futures, futures that are parallel universes, and can manipulate them at will to fire them at opponents:
But 2-A Fairy Tail isn’t on the table as you can see.
3rd Example: Naruto
Naruto offers examples to give here as well, 2 of them.Might Guy’s databook entry on Asakujaku being one, stating to punch out opponents with an infinite number of fists:
Another Naruto example is the Juubi / Ten Tails being claimed to have near infinite chakra by Obito:
Both examples are obviously not viable here. Guy doesn't have infinite speed, or infinite hands, and near infinite chakra quite clearly refers to large reserves of chakra for the ten tails.
4th Example: Dragon Ball
Dragon Ball gives an example to add into this false trend as well. Androids 17 and 18 by the time of the Android/Cell Saga are confirmed by Trunks to possess an infinite supply of energy:https://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1063/20154000/3.jpg
Neither of them at this point are considered anything higher than High 4-C, and it took new feats and scaling and a bunch of discussions to finally get 17 into the 3-A and Low 2-C range by the time of Super. Infinite energy supply just refers to their unlimited reverses of stamina.
5th Example: Soul Eater
Soul Eater is another example to turn to. Mifune has a technique that's called Infinite One Sword Style. What does the attack do? Releases only a large abundance of swords for Mifune to use instead of literally releasing infinite swords. On top of that, Mifune is only considered 8-A on here.6th Example: Saint Seiya
Saint Seiya could also be brought up here. Sigurd in Saint Seiya Episode G Assassin has an attack where he fires "an infinite number of energy beams at the opponent", but it's obviously not taken literally. It’s just a neverending beam spam.7th Example: Kirby
Kirby is another example to be referenced too, and I name this one in particular because of how much of a controversial matter its been here. One of Kirby’s enemies, Magolor, has had numerous threads made on this site in attempts to upgrade him, Kirby, and the verse to High 3-A using statements of “infinite power” that came up several times for him across different sources. We even acknowledge this currently on his page right now:Multi-Solar System level (Possessed by the power of the Master Crown and is no more than a manifestation of the crown, which was portrayed above other ancient artifacts and repeatedly claimed to have "infinite power" whereas the Lor Starcutter wasn't, indicating an interpretably vast superiority over it.
And not once in the history of this wikia have we ever accepted it for Magolor, despite how much the infinite power statement has been thrown around so many times. Despite HOW BLATANT this claim is, it still means nothing here. Which is why he’s not rated as anything higher than 4-A.
I could continue to name cases of this all day, but we’d be here forever. All of this shows the point that infinite anything is taken as nothing more than a grain of salt here as it's almost never accepted because of how vague and poetic the statements are, so we give them incredible amounts of skepticism and require them to have large quantities of evidence to have any chance in getting accepted. And Bleach’s infinite soul statement gets the exact same treatment, especially due to the fact that “infinite” in this context can also very easily be referring to the fact that souls in Bleach are endlessly renewable. They are sent back and forth between the 2 worlds in a reincarnation cycle that's endless, which in that sense, is “infinite” because it's an eternal cycle. But that doesn’t mean that the souls here are literally infinite in numbers. The only time souls being renewable is an exception is when Quincies completely erradicate hollows and remove them from the cycle permanently, which was why they were a threat to the soul cycle.
TL;DR- This statement creates far more inconsistencies than it does actual consistency. It’s a one time only statement, It goes against the nature, laws and makeup of the verse, using material that this site rejects in next to every case, with countless other verses, without having a huge abundance of evidence supporting it, along with the very possible chance that it's hyperbole and using poetic language to refer to the soul cycle. Once again, this is another example of having to use many levels of mental gymnastics and going through many layers of speculation in order to give this statement any viable backing to be accepted here without simply going with what takes FAR LESS amounts of leaps in logic to make. And that is the statement is just wrong and should be outright rejected.
Garganta Being Infinite
You all can re-read the very previous section as to why the size of the Garganta being infinite can fall under that. But I'm also just going to throw in this one small point because it's very interesting. Why is it that we reject Hueco Mundo being endless in size all because of someone wandering through a vastly big desert making that claim, but Garganta doesn't get scrutinized by that very same logic? How does Aura know it's infinite? She just wandered around inside of it to come to that conclusion? What's stopping us from just saying she says “infinite” because it's just a vast structure? The Garganta literally encompasses, what we now consider to be, entire universes. It's FAR FAR bigger than Hueco Mundo’s “endless” desert that you guys yourselves agreed on not making literally endless. It’s quite clearly a vast cosmic structure that's astronomically beyond what can be perceived, unless these guys can see things across interstellar distances all of a sudden. So what makes the Garganta different from Hueco Mundo? We shouldnt be accepting one as infinite for the exact opposite reason of why we don't consider the other endless.Either way, Garganta isn't infinite, due to the things above and also solely from the fact that it's not accepted as infinite here. Otherwise, Bleach would be sitting at High 3-A as the bare minimum from the upgrades, not 3-A. Which means the infinite size statement wasn't accepted. If you disagree, get it in a new CRT to get it accepted. Officially.
The Soul King Stabilizing Both The Worlds & Soul Cycle
First, the original post did not assume that the mechanism for the Soul King stabilizing the worlds was via the flow of souls; the original post said that the statement could be misinterpreted and that the upgrade ignored ANOTHER viable interpretation of the statement, an interpretation that has support backing it.
But more importantly, this isn’t how this works here. You cannot have your cake and eat it too from this. It’s either the Soul King stabilizes the world’s, OR he stabilizes the soul cycle, not both at once. Going with this copout is just attempting to ignore the burden of proof fallacy to provide information thats now required more than ever. Not to mention, this point hurts your argument and helps mine more than it does yours, as it makes it even more questionable as to what the Soul King stabilizes exactly and to what extent, which makes it even more shaky to be considered a feat. And with our new stability standards in place, that's damaging information.
Reiryoku used for Stabilizing The Worlds
Okay, I’ll admit, I almost conceded to this point here but am still against it solely for 2 reasons.First, the source of this statement. Where does this statement about the Soul King’s Reiryoku come from? What Novel? What chapter? I’ve read part of CFYOW myself and have not come across that, so i’d like a precise source of where this screenshot’s statement comes from to validate it source-wise please.
The second reason I am still against this idea of Reiryoku or Reiatsu used to stabilize the worlds is not just because of what the original post laid out for Yhwach, but also the ending of the Bleach manga conflicting with this. By the end of the manga, Yhwach’s Reiatsu gets destroyed completely. We see this happen when the Soul Society actively hunts down to dispose of Yhwach’s reiatsu, and Kazui Kurosaki removing the last remnants of it as confirmed by Aizen. Despite his reiatsu being removed, the worlds were completely unaffected by that. Why would that be the case if Reiatsu was used to stabilize the worlds?
4-D Power Being Above Infinite 3-D Power
Let’s get this out the way now. I don't know where you still get this idea from, or who you got this idea from, but this is absolutely not how our site’s dimensional tiering works here anymore. At all.We no longer use the idea that X higher dimensions/higher dimensional power is infinitely superior than Y lower dimensions by default anymore. You need to give strong evidence to prove the verse in particular treats higher D things as infinitely superior, otherwise they are treated as unknown / unquantifiable and are not given a tier off of that by itself. This is why someone with even 20-Dimensional power can still be as low as 10-C. Without evidence of it being infinitely superior, it does not grant a tier whatsoever.
So in the case of bleach here, effecting a 4-D structure over a finite amount of time instead of instantly / immediately destroying it is just unquantifiable 4-D energy that grants no tier. It’s not infinitely above 3-D energy by default, and it most certainly isn't Low 2-C without actual feats of it being that strong. The same goes for Yhwach’s plans of destroying the worlds as per Askin’s comment. You need more context than this to reach Low 2-C, and as the original post pointed out, statements by itself shouldnt by any means be enough to give a 15 tier climb. And yes, the WSK’s rating DOES call into the statements validity into question, because we are Feats >>> Statements. And Yhwach not getting a Low 2-C boost by the WSK’s rating anymore and having Reio's reiatsu resisted by non-god tiers would most certainly make the statements questionable.
Ganju Being a Credible Source
I already addressed this in my response to Warren's stuff, who is no longer participating in this, so i’m copying + pasting what I said again here.Once again, i'm going to kindly ask that people against this upgrade take the time and actually read the entire post so they can know what it actually addresses. Otherwise, you would have seen that “power levels” weren’t the reason we consider Ganju low on the credibility meter as a source of information.
Just as Warren said it's possible for Ganju to be credible per his place in a royal clan, it's also entirely possible he isn’t. This is the same guy who's scared and blatantly a non-factor in nearly any relevant thing the characters have done during extreme threats and hasn’t been depicted as someone knowledgeable on what speaks about. But more to the point here is that Ganju is just an ordinary everyday person. He isn’t Urahara, Yoruichi, Yhwach or anyone who’s shown to be well experienced in matters regarding the state or makeup of their own universe, he is someone with little importance in the verse. If I walk up to an ordinary person and ask if someone can do things they realistically can't, and they say they can, are you going to take what they say as a credible answer? Of course not, and this is the same thing. You have to go off possibilities and, once again, mental gymnastics to try and make a statement stick. This basically says if a random everyday person says someone can destroy the universe, 3-A gets slapped on as an upgrade just like that.
Ganju Not Having Yhwach’s Plan In Mind
Im...confused as to what this is supposed to be? You're admitting that Ganju did not have Yhwach’s plan in mind, meaning his Garganta statement refers to the Soul King's death destroying it. Not Yhwach.Antithesis Being Used on Yhwach With Silver Arrow
Antithesis wasn’t used with the Silver Arrow. I already countered this in my response to Warren’s argument, so i’ll copy + paste that here.The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.
Uryu’s Antithesis’s abilities work by being able to completely reverse anything that already happened between two targets. Pay close attention to the word TWO.
For Warren’s argument on the Antithesis being used to make sense, Uryu would have needed to have another target present with him to shoot first before reversing what happened to that target onto Yhwach. And there’s no evidence of this being present in that moment. This would be stacking an assumption, ontop of another assumption, in an attempt to counter the silver arrow. Without a second target being proved to be involved, it would be impossible for Uryu to use Antithesis on the arrow and then on Yhwach. As a smaller nitpick, this argument also assumes the Antithesis can transport physical objects when reversing the events, despite Uryu never displaying a feat like this with Antithesis. Going off this, that's stacking 3 assumptions on top of each other.
Adding to the aforementioned points, going off the “crumbs” of the scene, we see smoke coming out of Uryu’s quincy bow immediately after Yhwach is hit with the arrow, while facing Yhwach's direction:
This strongly goes against the Antithesis argument and supports the arrow being fired normally. Which anyone under normal circumstances would assume that Uryu just up and fired the bow at Yhwach. You’d have to go through a number of different mental gymnastics to deny this being the case, just as the argument on positioning does.
A viable and less argumentative assumption to make, instead of making leaps in logic on Uryu's position, is to blame Kubo for terrible paneling. The depiction of the arrow is displayed as Uryu shooting Yhwach in the back, which has to imply he’s behind Yhwach to do that. The arrow being portrayed as shooting Yhwach from behind, when the implication from Warren’s argument is supposed to be Uryu being in front of Yhwach, makes no sense.
TL;DR- Uryu didn't use Antithesis here, he couldn’t have used Antithesis and no direct evidence says he did. The more viable explanation here is that he just shot Yhwach normally with his bow, which has direct support and takes far less assumptions to make.
Yhwach Stabilizing The Worlds
Jugrams statement debunks nothing here. The original post already dealt with this and I countered this again when addressing Warren’s comment. I’ll be copying + pasting that here too.I disagree with him stabilizing them, at all. Reiatsu or not. I'm going to question just how much of the original post was actually read when making this counter argument, because this was already dealt with.
The original post already addressed this argument, in length already, about why Yhwach doesn’t sustain the worlds in the Bleach Cosmology. His death, neither the first time he was killed by Ichigo or the second time, caused the worlds to start collapsing like it did with Reio and Mimihagi’s deaths. The worlds began their collapse immediately when Reio was killed, and they began to collapse the moment Mimihagi was absorbed by Yhwach. But Yhwach’s death didn't do the same thing as the former 2’s deaths did. This would not have been the case if he did sustain the world’s.
Jugram’s statement is the only thing that keeps this contradicted idea in existence, and because it's so outright contradicted, it's not to be taken literally. Feats >>>>> Statements as the priority.
In addition, the ending of the Bleach manga conflicts with Yhwach sustaining the worlds as well since the soul society spent time and effort to destroy the remnants of Yhwach’s reiatsu; and when Kazui Kurosaki, Ichigo’s son, destroyed more of it, Aizen made the confirmation that the last of Yhwach’s reiatsu was destroyed and the world’s were completely unaffected by this happening.
TL;DR- Nothing strongly supports Yhwach sustaining the worlds, Jugrams statement is inconsistent and not to be taken seriously because of said on-panel inconsistencies. That, and the point about Yhwach’s supposed stability feat being nuked along with Reio’s remains unchanged and overall still debunks the opposition here.
Almighty Scaling To AP
Large misconception, and inconsistency, here with this. Nothing in Jugrams statement means the Almighty scales to Yhwach’s Attack Potency here.First Issue: The Misconception
Where in this statement does Jugram say the Almighty needs strength to be used in the first place? That's not what was said at all. The Almighty IS able to be used before Yhwach’s 9 years of restoring his power is up. What ISN’T able to happen is the Almighty being freely controlled. Jugram explicitly says that the Almighty could have gone out of control and absorbed the power of the Sternritters if Yhwach opened his eyes earlier, implying that Yhwach does not need his strength restored to activate Almighty to begin with, but that he does need his strength in order to freely wield it. This would have to be the case or else “going out of control” wouldn't be a viable possibility to begin with since the ability wouldn't be able to activate under this logic. Your arguments going under the idea that Almighty can’t be “used” in the sense that it cant be used at all without restored power, which is wrong.Second Problem: Scaling to Attack Potency
How is this supposed to mean Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency? This isn’t as if Yhwach’s raw power is being put into Almighty when using it. What’s said is that for Ywhach to even open his eyes without losing control, he has to be strong, but that does not mean that the Almighty itself buffs his strength, nor does it mean Yhwach’s AP is regularly put into whatever the Almighty does. His raw power had to be strong enough, right before opening his eyes, to have control over the Almighty. Having the stats to control the Almighty is a prerequisite to using the power, not a result of activating the power itself. In other words, it is a caveat to using the Almighty, not a benefit from using it. It is a weakness, which is basic common sense for any character with an ability or technique and needing enough strength to, you know, use it properly.This can be compared to an analogy of why this type of scaling doesnt work. This is like a child trying to carry a rocket launcher. He won’t be able to do it at his age, but when he grows up, he’ll be able to carry the rocket launcher and shoot out 8-B missles. Doesn’t mean the dude is anywhere near 8-B after growing up when doing that. It just means he became strong enough to support and fire the 8-B weapon.
And for what its worth, we also dont do this kind of scaling here for other series with similar circumstances. Is Deku now 7-B because he needed to be physically strong enough to wield and handle One for All, despite not being anywhere close to All Might's level when first using it? Is Roshi now 5-C reguarly because he needs to use up all of his energy to use Mafuba, a seal that can fail even when Low 2-C Goku tried using it without dying? Is Nagato 6-C regularly for having and Rinnegan, something that requires massively large quantities of chakra, and is something even above Nagato's individual power?
Third Problem: HUGE Scaling Inconsistencies
Adding to the above, this creates HUGE scaling issues that makes the upgrades even more of a mess than already seen as.Lets go under the assumption that Weakened Reio is still Low 2-C. Almighty Yhwach is treated by us as being above Weakened Reio. This gives big problems, because going by the logic of this argument, Low 2-C power in general is needed to use the Almighty, since if Almighty Yhwach is >>> Weakened Soul King, who you guys still consider to be Low 2-C, and Almighty scales to Yhwach's attack potency, that would mean Yhwach was always Low 2-C and Yhwach regularly is Low 2-C as he would need Low 2-C power to wield Almighty in the first place.
This then scales to a lot of different characters. Yamamoto would be scaling to Low 2-C since he and Yhwach 1000 of years prior to the series could not kill each other and Yhwach considered Prime Yamamoto a beast; The 5 War Potentials would arguably scale based off the very fact that Yhwach was concerned with them and made the Sternritter be wary of them, which makes no sense unless they were Low 2-C themselves for Yhwach to see them as a threat; On top of that, Ichibei would at least be the one member of Zero Squad who’d be scaling to Low 2-C since he outright fights Yhwach before and after the Almighty appeared without getting instantaneously stomped.
After that comes Jugram once again; Jugram was able to use Almighty in Yhwach’s place, which would mean he would need Low 2-C power to even remotely wield the Almighty; And no, it being a weaker Almighty does not change the fact that he’d need to be in the same realm of Low 2-C power as Yhwach is, or else using the Almighty is impossible from the start for a non Low 2-C. A weaker Almighty just means Jugram is a weaker Low 2-C than Yhwach is, so Low 2-C Jugram for using Almighty on some level now comes from this.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Uryu and likely Low 2-C Sternritters; Uryu lasted against Almighty Jugram, and made Jugram struggle afterwards, so he’d scale, and Sternritters likely scale to either Jugram or Uryu if memory serves me right.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Captains and Assistant Captains who'd be Low 2-C for fighting the Sternritters .
Very easily, this logic results in over 20+ characters magically scaling to the upgrades, which creates inconsistency after inconsistency with every passing moment and makes this much more outlierish. And this is all on the premise that Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency, which as explained, shouldn't be scaling.
So a choice needs to be made. Either the Almighty doesn’t scale to attack potency and is treated as pure hax, or many characters end up scaling to the upgrades to make this incredibly inconsistent.
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And to end my turn at counters on this point, im just going to give everyone another friendly reminder that both Warren and Arc's responses, for whatever reason, completely failed to actually address the original post's point about the Quincies existence conflicting with the Soul King stabilizing the worlds:
Not a single counter argument from either of them was made against this, so this point here should still hold regardless of Yhwach's statement or the statement from CFYOW on the universal flow of souls.Evidence 2: The Threat of the Quincies
This will be where most of the support comes in for the Soul King stabilizing the soul cycle as I saw this mentioned elsewhere here. And that is the threat the Quincies posed to the Bleach cosmology. These scans will explain the details:
Quincies and Shinigami differed from each other in how they disposed of hollows. Shinigami are considered balancers who cleanse hollows and send them to the Soul Society, while Quincies eradicate them completely. As a result, the Quincies removed those souls from the soul cycle of sending souls between the Soul Society and Living World. By doing that, they would unbalance the amount of souls between the two worlds, which as explained, would cause the collapse of the universe as a result. Being a threat to the worlds in this manner was the reason why Shinigami actively sought to prevent Quincies from disrupting the balance in the first place, even going as far as to kill majority of them.
The Soul King stabilizing the entire Cosmology conflicts with this. The Quincies are, narratively and consistently, treated as threats to the Bleach cosmology in-universe. Why would the Quincies be regarded as such a threat to the worlds if the Soul King directly stabilizes these said worlds? No matter what the Quincies would do to the soul cycle, Reio stabilizing the worlds would prevent them from getting collapsed. Even more so, Shinigami's would not have been required to dispose of Quincies if the Soul King sustaining the worlds was actually the case. The only way this doesn't conflict with this plot-point is if the Soul King only sustains the flow of souls.
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Also, sorry to squeeze in this last response, but this is going to be aimed at the complaints of us "not waiting" that are being aimed at me in this Bleach General Discussion thread.
I don't care how people feel or respond to the idea of a downgrade towards their verse, I am not at all appreciating these complaints about "rushing" this thread as fast as possible. People have lives outside of this site, with different things to do and different responsibilities to take care of. The very person you guys are waiting on for your defense falls under this, who for the record, was FINE with me giving my counters here after I ASKED him earlier today if that was fine. Why? So that we are being fair and not accidently putting so much on peoples plates. Do not sit here giving me flak for finding time to give these extensive arguments when you're so willing to turn the other cheek and give someone on your side a free pass.
IMade is not the only busy human being in this thread, as I am as well. I will be occuiped offline with things to take care of soon too, so I prepped my counters as early as possible, and waited for IMade to come into action at the time he said he would to not unknowingly throw a bunch of info in his face. He didn't. Understandably so, but not all of us have all day to wait on others before continuing such a controversial topic thats already gathered much attention from members here. Just because threads here go under the effect of taking months to complete, does not mean every thread has to. And the same thing goes for this one. We aren't rushing anything here, we are responding when we best have the time to do that.
I don't care how people feel or respond to the idea of a downgrade towards their verse, I am not at all appreciating these complaints about "rushing" this thread as fast as possible. People have lives outside of this site, with different things to do and different responsibilities to take care of. The very person you guys are waiting on for your defense falls under this, who for the record, was FINE with me giving my counters here after I ASKED him earlier today if that was fine. Why? So that we are being fair and not accidently putting so much on peoples plates. Do not sit here giving me flak for finding time to give these extensive arguments when you're so willing to turn the other cheek and give someone on your side a free pass.
IMade is not the only busy human being in this thread, as I am as well. I will be occuiped offline with things to take care of soon too, so I prepped my counters as early as possible, and waited for IMade to come into action at the time he said he would to not unknowingly throw a bunch of info in his face. He didn't. Understandably so, but not all of us have all day to wait on others before continuing such a controversial topic thats already gathered much attention from members here. Just because threads here go under the effect of taking months to complete, does not mean every thread has to. And the same thing goes for this one. We aren't rushing anything here, we are responding when we best have the time to do that.
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Well said on the "Not waiting" factor. That complain is absolutely meaningless and hypocritical.
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If I may throw my two cents into this, there is another point I would like to bring up which, while primarily relevant to one arc of the manga, I feel may bear relevance when it comes to the scaling of reiatsu: Transcendence in the Deicide arc.
Within the Deicide arc, starting with chapter 406, Urahara and Isshin bring up the fact that neither of them can sense Aizen's reiatsu after he started his metamorphosis, to the point where Isshin described like he was fighting "nothing". Throughout the arc, Aizen kept on evolving and growing even more powerful as he became a "Transcendent Being". When Ichigo arrives on the scene in chapter 417, and throughout his fight with Aizen up to the point he used Mugetsu, Aizen could not sense his reiatsu in turn. So much so that Aizen had initially assumed Ichigo had given up his reiatsu in favor of physical strength, and only realized Ichigo's power had "transcended" his own when reiryoku was billowing off of Ichigo in preparation for Mugetsu, and he still could not sense it.
On the other hand, when Ichigo is preparing to fight Yhwach in the Wahrwelt, everyone can feel his reiatsu billowing down from the top of the palace. Or even consider Aizen's situation throughout the Final Arc. People could sense his reiatsu as well, and Mayuri's technology and bindings were even able to restrict his reiatsu to his body, and NaNaNa's power "The Underbelly" could even paralyze him for five mintues.
As a personal interpretation, given I believe this could influence how we scale characters in later arcs, if we take various characters' abilities to sense their reiatsu into account, based on what we were shown in Deicide, that would be evidence to suggest that the Final Arc versions of Ichigo and Aizen are, in fact, weaker than their Deicide counterparts, which would even scale to Yhwach fighting both of them (considering Ichigo's Bankai is powerful enough to kill him).
I do not know if this has been brought up before in regards to scaling character, so I'll leave it up to the staff to decide whether the above is used or not.
Within the Deicide arc, starting with chapter 406, Urahara and Isshin bring up the fact that neither of them can sense Aizen's reiatsu after he started his metamorphosis, to the point where Isshin described like he was fighting "nothing". Throughout the arc, Aizen kept on evolving and growing even more powerful as he became a "Transcendent Being". When Ichigo arrives on the scene in chapter 417, and throughout his fight with Aizen up to the point he used Mugetsu, Aizen could not sense his reiatsu in turn. So much so that Aizen had initially assumed Ichigo had given up his reiatsu in favor of physical strength, and only realized Ichigo's power had "transcended" his own when reiryoku was billowing off of Ichigo in preparation for Mugetsu, and he still could not sense it.
On the other hand, when Ichigo is preparing to fight Yhwach in the Wahrwelt, everyone can feel his reiatsu billowing down from the top of the palace. Or even consider Aizen's situation throughout the Final Arc. People could sense his reiatsu as well, and Mayuri's technology and bindings were even able to restrict his reiatsu to his body, and NaNaNa's power "The Underbelly" could even paralyze him for five mintues.
As a personal interpretation, given I believe this could influence how we scale characters in later arcs, if we take various characters' abilities to sense their reiatsu into account, based on what we were shown in Deicide, that would be evidence to suggest that the Final Arc versions of Ichigo and Aizen are, in fact, weaker than their Deicide counterparts, which would even scale to Yhwach fighting both of them (considering Ichigo's Bankai is powerful enough to kill him).
I do not know if this has been brought up before in regards to scaling character, so I'll leave it up to the staff to decide whether the above is used or not.
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I apologize that I brought my input in here w/out staff approval.
The manga flat out said Dangai Ichigo = Reio Slicer Shikai Ichigo.
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I will leave the above two comments in place, but nobody else who does not already have permission to post here should post here.
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Argument by @Hasch
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yhwach Sustaining The Worlds
And by this, I mean I disagree with him stabilizing them, at all. Reiatsu or not. I'm questioning just how much of the original post was read when making this counter argument, because this was already dealt with. The original post already addressed this argument, in length, about why Yhwach doesn’t sustain the worlds in the Bleach Cosmology. Look for yourselves
)
No, we are told he is holding the worlds while fighting Ichigo by Ichibei.
“However, fortunately for the boy, Yhwach had completely obtained the power of the Soul King for himself, It is for this reason, even regardless of the fact that Kurosaki Ichigo had won, that the Soul Society was able to escape collapse in such a way.”
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stabilization Requirements
Requirement 2 is the only requirement in the new standards that Weakened Reio arguably fits in with, and even that's shaky as I will address in my response to Arc after this.
It is not mentioned “numerous times” that he sustains the worlds. It's mentioned ONCE, through a statement that’s open to more than one interpretation of what it means. Adding to that, if it’s said “numerous times”, then those numerous examples should be very easy to be gathered and SHOWN here. But the lack of evidence should be telling enough on this part of the argument.
That, and Warren just completely missed the points about the quincies and the official English translation from CFYOW stating point blank that the Soul King stabilizes the universal flow of souls.))
The worlds existed before the flow of souls, the soul king divided reishi from atoms and the soul current is there to maintain that without the linchpin being awake.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Stabilization “Irrelevant” to the “Real” Scaling & other things
No offense, but this last part of Warren’s counters pretty much just says that everything in the original post wasn't entirely read. The original post literally acknowledged Reio’s creation feat, in the beginning and at the end, and we addressed it not mattering for the downgrade for 2 reasons. It's done with Almighty, which is a hax, and that the official translations for CFYOW’s details on the feat are not going to be made available for a couple months.))
In Bleach all hax is still reiatsu based so not much of a point, also the translation says he did it with his extreme powers and not with Allmighty, which even if he did would scale to Ywach being able to do the same feat.
Then you have that Ichigo can be the linchpin too and he has no hax at all.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And on that note about the novel statement, a small reminder should be pointed out here that the "Cant Fear Your Own World" novel is considered secondary canon on this site. The manga for Bleach is the source material, and is 100% the primary canon source to be taking evidence from. The very fact that a novel statement about the worlds "likely crumbling immediately" comes from a source of lesser canonicity, and doesn't align with the depiction that the primary canon shows us, should be telling enough to everyone on both sides on why these statements have 0 bearing. And are ultimately irrelevant to use as a counter argument against this downgrade.))
Except that CFYOW statement is about Ywach final attack and not the earthquake from the previous chapters.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Counter-Point: “Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.”
This also isn’t enough to sustain this scaling to AP/Durability (not that it really matters). Even if the sustaining is done with Reiatsu, the fact that it’s being focused into sustaining the cosmology as proclaimed, would mean that the reiatsu when used for anything else isn't anywhere close to as strong and would need more evidence to prove that amount of power can be used all at once towards attack potency and durability. This is actually precisely why it’s outlined as a requirement in the new standards in the first place, since sustenance feats are assumed by default to not scale.
After all, if non god tiers are able to fight against and dispose of Yhwach’s and Reio’s Reiatsu when going against them, it becomes a fairly large anti feat against Reiatsu being used at Low 2-C levels when not used for sustenance due to these major inconsistencies. And these non god tiers includes a CHILD mind you.))
Except no, battles of spiritual beings are battles of reiatsu explicitly stated by Aizen and Zaraki, since reiatsu is literally reiryoku being used for something, a casual use of it will never be greater than a focused attack
Those gremlins are infinitesimal amounts of Ywach reiatsu at that point, so they only prove those low tiers can handle something weaker than they are (?
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Garganta Being Infinite
You all can re-read the very previous section as to why the size of the Garganta being infinite can fall under that. But I'm also just going to throw in this one small point because it's very interesting. Why is it that we reject Hueco Mundo being endless in size all because of someone wandering through a vastly big desert making that claim, but Garganta doesn't get scrutinized by that very same logic? How does Aura know it's infinite? She just wandered around inside of it to come to that conclusion? What's stopping us from just saying she says “infinite” because it's just a vast structure? The Garganta literally encompasses, what we now consider to be, entire universes. It's FAR FAR bigger than Hueco Mundo’s “endless” desert that you guys yourselves agreed on not making literally endless. It’s quite clearly a vast cosmic structure that's astronomically beyond what can be perceived, unless these guys can see things across interstellar distances all of a sudden. So what makes the Garganta different from Hueco Mundo? We shouldnt be accepting one as infinite for the exact opposite reason of why we don't consider the other endless.
Either way, Garganta isn't infinite, due to the things above and also solely from the fact that it's not accepted as infinite here. Otherwise, Bleach would be sitting at High 3-A as the bare minimum from the upgrades, not 3-A. Which means the infinite size statement wasn't accepted. If you disagree, get it in a new CRT to get it accepted. Officially.))
It's infinite because it is the void between all dimensions without space or time.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.))
The arrow worked because it's a portable Auschwalen which uses Ywach own powers against him.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Reiryoku used for Stabilizing The Worlds
Okay, I’ll admit, I almost conceded to this point here but am still against it solely for 2 reasons.
First, the source of this statement. Where does this statement about the Soul King’s Reiryoku come from? What Novel? What chapter? I’ve read part of CFYOW myself and have not come across that, so i’d like a precise source of where this screenshot’s statement comes from to validate it source-wise please.
The second reason I am still against this idea of Reiryoku or Reiatsu used to stabilize the worlds is not just because of what the original post laid out for Yhwach, but also the ending of the Bleach manga conflicting with this. By the end of the manga, Yhwach’s Reiatsu gets destroyed completely. We see this happen when the Soul Society actively hunts down to dispose of Yhwach’s reiatsu, and Kazui Kurosaki removing the last remnants of it as confirmed by Aizen. Despite his reiatsu being removed, the worlds were completely unaffected by that. Why would that be the case if Reiatsu was used to stabilize the worlds?))
Because that's the reiatsu that remained from the fight, not the one used by the linchpin.
“…It cannot be helped. If you tell the truth you won’t be able avoid confusion and disorder”
After Kurosaki Ichigo had triumphed over Yhwach, his remains were transported to the Soul King Palace at the hands of Squad Zero soldiers. Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death, by storing it as the new lynchpin in the Soul King Greater Palace area, the world was spared from collapse.
The demise of the Soul King, as well as the fact that it is the mastermind of the great war who keeps the world tethered now, are both kept secret, the series of incursions by the Wandenreich was assigned the name “Protection of the Soul King Great War.”
“The Soul King Palace was safeguarded, and the Soul King was not assassinated… that’s what the students are being taught, I wonder if there were things that were falsified in this way within the history that we studied too.”
Click to expand...
“However, fortunately for the boy, Yhwach had completely obtained the power of the Soul King for himself, It is for this reason, even regardless of the fact that Kurosaki Ichigo had won, that the Soul Society was able to escape collapse in such a way.”
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Third Problem: HUGE Scaling Inconsistencies))
The scalling does need a revision.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yhwach Sustaining The Worlds
And by this, I mean I disagree with him stabilizing them, at all. Reiatsu or not. I'm questioning just how much of the original post was read when making this counter argument, because this was already dealt with. The original post already addressed this argument, in length, about why Yhwach doesn’t sustain the worlds in the Bleach Cosmology. Look for yourselves
)No, we are told he is holding the worlds while fighting Ichigo by Ichibei.
“However, fortunately for the boy, Yhwach had completely obtained the power of the Soul King for himself, It is for this reason, even regardless of the fact that Kurosaki Ichigo had won, that the Soul Society was able to escape collapse in such a way.”
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stabilization Requirements
Requirement 2 is the only requirement in the new standards that Weakened Reio arguably fits in with, and even that's shaky as I will address in my response to Arc after this.
It is not mentioned “numerous times” that he sustains the worlds. It's mentioned ONCE, through a statement that’s open to more than one interpretation of what it means. Adding to that, if it’s said “numerous times”, then those numerous examples should be very easy to be gathered and SHOWN here. But the lack of evidence should be telling enough on this part of the argument.
That, and Warren just completely missed the points about the quincies and the official English translation from CFYOW stating point blank that the Soul King stabilizes the universal flow of souls.))
The worlds existed before the flow of souls, the soul king divided reishi from atoms and the soul current is there to maintain that without the linchpin being awake.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Stabilization “Irrelevant” to the “Real” Scaling & other things
No offense, but this last part of Warren’s counters pretty much just says that everything in the original post wasn't entirely read. The original post literally acknowledged Reio’s creation feat, in the beginning and at the end, and we addressed it not mattering for the downgrade for 2 reasons. It's done with Almighty, which is a hax, and that the official translations for CFYOW’s details on the feat are not going to be made available for a couple months.))
In Bleach all hax is still reiatsu based so not much of a point, also the translation says he did it with his extreme powers and not with Allmighty, which even if he did would scale to Ywach being able to do the same feat.
Then you have that Ichigo can be the linchpin too and he has no hax at all.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And on that note about the novel statement, a small reminder should be pointed out here that the "Cant Fear Your Own World" novel is considered secondary canon on this site. The manga for Bleach is the source material, and is 100% the primary canon source to be taking evidence from. The very fact that a novel statement about the worlds "likely crumbling immediately" comes from a source of lesser canonicity, and doesn't align with the depiction that the primary canon shows us, should be telling enough to everyone on both sides on why these statements have 0 bearing. And are ultimately irrelevant to use as a counter argument against this downgrade.))
Except that CFYOW statement is about Ywach final attack and not the earthquake from the previous chapters.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Counter-Point: “Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.”
This also isn’t enough to sustain this scaling to AP/Durability (not that it really matters). Even if the sustaining is done with Reiatsu, the fact that it’s being focused into sustaining the cosmology as proclaimed, would mean that the reiatsu when used for anything else isn't anywhere close to as strong and would need more evidence to prove that amount of power can be used all at once towards attack potency and durability. This is actually precisely why it’s outlined as a requirement in the new standards in the first place, since sustenance feats are assumed by default to not scale.
After all, if non god tiers are able to fight against and dispose of Yhwach’s and Reio’s Reiatsu when going against them, it becomes a fairly large anti feat against Reiatsu being used at Low 2-C levels when not used for sustenance due to these major inconsistencies. And these non god tiers includes a CHILD mind you.))
Except no, battles of spiritual beings are battles of reiatsu explicitly stated by Aizen and Zaraki, since reiatsu is literally reiryoku being used for something, a casual use of it will never be greater than a focused attack
Those gremlins are infinitesimal amounts of Ywach reiatsu at that point, so they only prove those low tiers can handle something weaker than they are (?
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Garganta Being Infinite
You all can re-read the very previous section as to why the size of the Garganta being infinite can fall under that. But I'm also just going to throw in this one small point because it's very interesting. Why is it that we reject Hueco Mundo being endless in size all because of someone wandering through a vastly big desert making that claim, but Garganta doesn't get scrutinized by that very same logic? How does Aura know it's infinite? She just wandered around inside of it to come to that conclusion? What's stopping us from just saying she says “infinite” because it's just a vast structure? The Garganta literally encompasses, what we now consider to be, entire universes. It's FAR FAR bigger than Hueco Mundo’s “endless” desert that you guys yourselves agreed on not making literally endless. It’s quite clearly a vast cosmic structure that's astronomically beyond what can be perceived, unless these guys can see things across interstellar distances all of a sudden. So what makes the Garganta different from Hueco Mundo? We shouldnt be accepting one as infinite for the exact opposite reason of why we don't consider the other endless.
Either way, Garganta isn't infinite, due to the things above and also solely from the fact that it's not accepted as infinite here. Otherwise, Bleach would be sitting at High 3-A as the bare minimum from the upgrades, not 3-A. Which means the infinite size statement wasn't accepted. If you disagree, get it in a new CRT to get it accepted. Officially.))
It's infinite because it is the void between all dimensions without space or time.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.))
The arrow worked because it's a portable Auschwalen which uses Ywach own powers against him.
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Reiryoku used for Stabilizing The Worlds
Okay, I’ll admit, I almost conceded to this point here but am still against it solely for 2 reasons.
First, the source of this statement. Where does this statement about the Soul King’s Reiryoku come from? What Novel? What chapter? I’ve read part of CFYOW myself and have not come across that, so i’d like a precise source of where this screenshot’s statement comes from to validate it source-wise please.
The second reason I am still against this idea of Reiryoku or Reiatsu used to stabilize the worlds is not just because of what the original post laid out for Yhwach, but also the ending of the Bleach manga conflicting with this. By the end of the manga, Yhwach’s Reiatsu gets destroyed completely. We see this happen when the Soul Society actively hunts down to dispose of Yhwach’s reiatsu, and Kazui Kurosaki removing the last remnants of it as confirmed by Aizen. Despite his reiatsu being removed, the worlds were completely unaffected by that. Why would that be the case if Reiatsu was used to stabilize the worlds?))
Because that's the reiatsu that remained from the fight, not the one used by the linchpin.
“…It cannot be helped. If you tell the truth you won’t be able avoid confusion and disorder”
After Kurosaki Ichigo had triumphed over Yhwach, his remains were transported to the Soul King Palace at the hands of Squad Zero soldiers. Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death, by storing it as the new lynchpin in the Soul King Greater Palace area, the world was spared from collapse.
The demise of the Soul King, as well as the fact that it is the mastermind of the great war who keeps the world tethered now, are both kept secret, the series of incursions by the Wandenreich was assigned the name “Protection of the Soul King Great War.”
“The Soul King Palace was safeguarded, and the Soul King was not assassinated… that’s what the students are being taught, I wonder if there were things that were falsified in this way within the history that we studied too.”
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“However, fortunately for the boy, Yhwach had completely obtained the power of the Soul King for himself, It is for this reason, even regardless of the fact that Kurosaki Ichigo had won, that the Soul Society was able to escape collapse in such a way.”
((ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Third Problem: HUGE Scaling Inconsistencies))
The scalling does need a revision.
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@Arc7Kuroi; would you prefer if we closed the thread until the next time you, or IMade or TOAA (or anybody currently involved in the debate) can post?
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i personally dont have a problem if closed either as that would give time for the rest to respond to the counters of kukui and it would also like arc puts it prevent a novel of replies
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Okay. Closing the thread now. Please contact myself or another member of staff when you want the thread re-opened.
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Alright despite this thread being limited to a few people I feel it has gotten a bit disorganized, partially my fault for not suggesting this early. However, I'm going to propose we focus on a single point at a time and work our way through individual points rather than writing each other bibles. A) it'll be easier to follow and B) I don't have the time nor energy to read and write walls of text now that college is back in session. Final aside, I'm going to drop tier 2 scaling because tier 2 is currently undergoing revisions and as I see it many tier 2 characters (like Bleach) won't qualify for that anymore. I may revisit tier 2 once it's officially updated.
The Size of the Garganta
The Size of the Garganta
- Aura says this: 無限に広がる黒腔の中を彷徨い続け (CFYOW III pg. 396 JP ver.)
- Which says that the "inside of Garganta extends to infinity" in the most literal translation, translated more nicely to "within the infinite Garganta" (shadowliepard and scheneizel have translated it as such, page 206). I can't force you to trust me but I've studied Japanese in college, so I'm aware how the language functions in a structural and cultural sense, and I've beaten this horse to death but Google Translate is by no means a reputable source in the world of academia so I'd hope I'd have more credibility than that.
- As per the scan provided in the OP the Soul Cycle (which occurs throughout the Garganta as per Memories of Nobody, seeing how Valley of Screams form from escapee souls in the Garganta) is on a universal scale. All this meaning is that the Garganta (and by extension everything within it) is the Bleach Universe.
- Ganryu claims that they have infinite souls at their disposal.
- Here is a nice little summary of the Garganta with footnotes denoting where the information was obtained from. The Garganta being this black void of turbulent reishi.
- There appears to be some confusion on how I use infinite around here, being that I see Kukui is addressing that infinite may not be literal true infinite. To which I agree. I bring up infinite with the intent of referencing this, specifically the point of being described as infinite allowing for universal size and only one bullet point needing to be satisfied.
- We have one statement calling the Garganta an infinite space, another statement implying the Garganta can contain infinite souls which in turn would imply infinite space, a statement implying that the Garganta is the entire universe, and finally we know the Garganta is an all encompassing void of reishi.
- To talk on the validity of the two infinite statements, Aura is working closely with Tokinada and Ganryu is banished nobility. Tokinada being the person who's motivations lie in wanting to inflict malice for the lie that is Soul Society history and part of the Tsunayashiro clan, said clan being in charge of Soul Society history. Ganryu being nobility means he would have had access to the special library in the Nobles section of Soul Society. Point being outside of the Soul King himself, the nobles (especially Tokinada) are the most qualified to speak on the structure of the universe as their ancestors were there when it was conceived. We also know Tokinada had been giving information to Aura so she could inform the masses on Earth. Thus I feel these statements have high validity.
- As per VSBW standards being likened to infinite in size (or other synonyms for infinite) is enough to qualify a space a universal in size.
- Kukui brought up that Garganta wasn't accepted infinite, which he's correct; however, the Garganta was accepted as universal in size because it met the VSBW standards. Meaning currently the Garganta is accepted here as a universal (3-A) space, which was a unanimous agreement in the upgrade thread.
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Okay, thank you for responding what you could Arc.
I’ll respond soon to that.
I’ll respond soon to that.
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It's finally my time to give an opinion on what I see, I'll only focus on the most important points that I feel mainly deal with the ratings of the characters, I would like to thank both sides for giving very in-depth arguments as to why the characters do or do not scale, regardless of what happens here, I want to say good job to both sides on how much work they put in, so here's my opinion, after reading and looking honestly at everything that is being said here, I'm going to have to agree with the downgrade side
While I have no doubt in my mind that Yhwach and the Soul King have the power to reshape and change the worlds/realms, I don't see how that feat itself scales to their regular attacks and durability, it's implied that feat was going to be done by the Almighty, which is a purely hax ability that Ichigo and Aizen definitely don't scale to, I mean both of them get clapped by the Almighty every time it is used on them, and even if the feat was used with Reiatsu, I would still be skeptical scaling the Almighty to Yhwach because it is mainly a hax based ability
As for the stabilization feat, from how I see it, it is by no means valid for scaling to AP, if the three worlds were completely destroyed within a minute or less, I would have no problem with them scaling to that level, but over a period of a few minutes, all we see is shaking and some buildings themselves being destroyed, in order for full 3-A to Low 2-C AP, you would need to have been able to immediately destroy the entirety of the worlds in a relatively short timeframe, I could be more lenient on that point if this was a lower tier jump and if this wasn't the only feat, but since we are literally jumping from High 6-A to 3-A and Low 2-C and the feat of the universes being destroyed isn't immediate by any means, I can't in good conscious scale those tiers to their regular AP and Durabilty, and even if the stabilization was valid for 3-A to Low 2-C, if Yhwach is busy using his power to stabilize the worlds, I see no reason why he'd be able to use the same level of power for his regular attacks and durability, a statement claiming that he was only using a mere fraction of his powers to stabilize the worlds would support that, but I see no justification for that, so I can't see said tier scaling to the regular attacks Yhwach uses
I also agree with what Kukui said about how the Almighty doesn't buff physicals, what I interpret from that statement is that a person has to be strong enough beforehand to even use the Almighty without losing control, not that the person receive a power boost from the Almighty itself, so the idea that the Almighty buffs physical stats seems to be wrong, which would mean characters who can fight and damage Yhwach before he activated the Almighty would scale to his Pre-Mimihagi AP, which also makes the 3-A to Low 2-C rating seem very questionable
I honestly have no problem with the Prime Soul King and Post-Power Absorption Yhwach getting "3-A to Low 2-C with the Almighty" or something akin to that as I do think Yhwach was going to do what he planning to do, but as for what the God Tiers should scale too, I have no idea, whether they be High 6-A, Low 5-B, 5-B, or 5-A doesn't concern me at this point, all I know is that I do agree that 3-A to Low 2-C scaling to the God Tiers regular combat attack power and durability is not supported enough
Well that is everything that I feel majorly goes against why the God Tiers regular stats don't scale to 3-A and Low 2-C, that's just how I interpret the story and what has been said here, I didn't just want to say I agree with the downgrade just because I looked at the arguments, I wanted to give my own explanation as to why I feel the way I do, now I'm sure many will still disagree with me and claim that I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I just want to say that I don't think anything being said here is 100% fact like the attitude of both sides seems to be, many people have many different interpretations on what the scaling is and everyone usually thinks that their own power scaling is best, but I would just ask everyone to try and see the opposite sides argument for themselves if possible, this doesn't need to be an angry and toxic conversation
Well anyways, that is everything I had to say and thank you to those who were willing to listen to me, I hope that even if you disagree with me, you can at least respect my opinion as a fellow user
While I have no doubt in my mind that Yhwach and the Soul King have the power to reshape and change the worlds/realms, I don't see how that feat itself scales to their regular attacks and durability, it's implied that feat was going to be done by the Almighty, which is a purely hax ability that Ichigo and Aizen definitely don't scale to, I mean both of them get clapped by the Almighty every time it is used on them, and even if the feat was used with Reiatsu, I would still be skeptical scaling the Almighty to Yhwach because it is mainly a hax based ability
As for the stabilization feat, from how I see it, it is by no means valid for scaling to AP, if the three worlds were completely destroyed within a minute or less, I would have no problem with them scaling to that level, but over a period of a few minutes, all we see is shaking and some buildings themselves being destroyed, in order for full 3-A to Low 2-C AP, you would need to have been able to immediately destroy the entirety of the worlds in a relatively short timeframe, I could be more lenient on that point if this was a lower tier jump and if this wasn't the only feat, but since we are literally jumping from High 6-A to 3-A and Low 2-C and the feat of the universes being destroyed isn't immediate by any means, I can't in good conscious scale those tiers to their regular AP and Durabilty, and even if the stabilization was valid for 3-A to Low 2-C, if Yhwach is busy using his power to stabilize the worlds, I see no reason why he'd be able to use the same level of power for his regular attacks and durability, a statement claiming that he was only using a mere fraction of his powers to stabilize the worlds would support that, but I see no justification for that, so I can't see said tier scaling to the regular attacks Yhwach uses
I also agree with what Kukui said about how the Almighty doesn't buff physicals, what I interpret from that statement is that a person has to be strong enough beforehand to even use the Almighty without losing control, not that the person receive a power boost from the Almighty itself, so the idea that the Almighty buffs physical stats seems to be wrong, which would mean characters who can fight and damage Yhwach before he activated the Almighty would scale to his Pre-Mimihagi AP, which also makes the 3-A to Low 2-C rating seem very questionable
I honestly have no problem with the Prime Soul King and Post-Power Absorption Yhwach getting "3-A to Low 2-C with the Almighty" or something akin to that as I do think Yhwach was going to do what he planning to do, but as for what the God Tiers should scale too, I have no idea, whether they be High 6-A, Low 5-B, 5-B, or 5-A doesn't concern me at this point, all I know is that I do agree that 3-A to Low 2-C scaling to the God Tiers regular combat attack power and durability is not supported enough
Well that is everything that I feel majorly goes against why the God Tiers regular stats don't scale to 3-A and Low 2-C, that's just how I interpret the story and what has been said here, I didn't just want to say I agree with the downgrade just because I looked at the arguments, I wanted to give my own explanation as to why I feel the way I do, now I'm sure many will still disagree with me and claim that I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I just want to say that I don't think anything being said here is 100% fact like the attitude of both sides seems to be, many people have many different interpretations on what the scaling is and everyone usually thinks that their own power scaling is best, but I would just ask everyone to try and see the opposite sides argument for themselves if possible, this doesn't need to be an angry and toxic conversation
Well anyways, that is everything I had to say and thank you to those who were willing to listen to me, I hope that even if you disagree with me, you can at least respect my opinion as a fellow user
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Can you give your thoughts on the size of the Garganta based on my last post. I'd prefer to keep the discussion streamlined (addressing everything from the roots and moving up the tree), hence why I started with the Garganta's size.
I plan to move from Garganta's size to Ganju's statements (among other's statements) to how it affects the God Tiers. As you can see the crux is Garganta's size, so I'd appreciate if we could start there before moving on.
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I mean the Garganta size doesn't really take part in my disagreement with the upgrades, I agree with Universal for the world reshaping feat, I just don't think that scales to Yhwach's regular attacks or durability for the reasons I gave, and the Garganta being infinite is fine from what I have read, but the size of the realms don't have a factor in my disagreement
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Ok but you agree that the Garganta fits the standards for Universal in size (by this site's standards at least), which is all I wanted to know atm.I mean the Garganta size doesn't really take part in my disagreement with the upgrades, I agree with Universal for the world reshaping feat, I just don't think that scales to Yhwach's regular attacks or durability for the reasons I gave, and the Garganta being infinite is fine from what I have read, but the size of the realms don't have a factor in my disagreement
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At least from what I have seen about the Garganta, I think it is somewhat fine, however that and the Infinite souls thing has me somewhat skeptical, statements using the term "Infinite" get thrown around a lot in Anime/Manga, so it needs plenty of supporting info to justify both of these things being infinite
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As per my post I’m not claiming they’re true infinite.
However, as per VSBW standards being described as infinite satisfies a condition for universal size.
So multiple infinite statements from reputable sources imo satisfies that condition.
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Alright things are getting peaceful again, keep it up gents
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