Bleach Arrancar Arc Scaling

[HST_Master]

Alright so I noticed something in Shinji Hirako vs Caster Da Vinci that Shinji is rated at 7-B. The question is why? He and the other Visords are all comparable to Zangetsu Possesed Bankai Ichigo without their masks, and Ichigo in bankai has been rated as 7-A since the Soul Society Arc. This is a problem with most of our Espada and Visord profiles along with some others.


Yoruichi

Ulquiorra

Baragga

Harribel

Grimmjow

Nnoitra

Yammy

Wonderweiss

Shinji

Kensei

Rose

Love

Hiyori

Lisa

Mashiro

and finally Hachi

this is a problem with a lot of the arrancar arc profiles

 

[Malikobama1]

Agreed on all the Espada and Visoreds, but can we be sure Yoruichi's SS/Arrancar Arc key scales to Bankai Ichigo's power? IIRC she hurt herself hitting Yammy, and the only other character she clearly scaled to was Soifon, since she said she was rusty from 100 years of no fighting.

 

[HST_Master]

Well yeah, but she's also able to keep up with Isshin and Urahara both of who are 7-A while fighting Aizen

 

[Malikobama1]

Isn't that why she has a FKT Arc key? I assumed she got back into her training.

 

[HST_Master]

Her justification for her SS/Arrancar arc key is that she made Ulquiorra wary about fighting both her and Urahara, totally disregarding Ichigo

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Need Dot to see this scaling problem.

 

[Malikobama1]

Tbh that justification seems pretty flimsy to me since Ulquiorra comes off as a cautious individual + he mainly cared about completing their mission, not getting involved in a fight unnecessarily + who knows how much of his wariness came from Urahara and not Yoruichi, considering Aizen's praise for the former. But overall I don't really care that much and I wouldn't mind Yoruichi scaling to Bankai Ichigo in the SS and Arrancar Arcs.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask Soldier Blue to comment here.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

The reason I didn't scale the stronger Espada in base to 7-A is because of what Ulquiorra said about Bankai Ichigo's reiatsu. He noted that Bankai Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuated from being nothing noteworthy to much greater than his own. Grimmjow also noted that Ichigo wasn't going all out in their fight due to focusing too much on suppressing Hichigo and preventing a full takeover. I thought scaling the stronger Espada in base to the 7-B calc was a safer bet and would also be less controversial.

Now seeing as how Ulquiorra can fight against Bankai + Hollow Mask Ichigo and seeing as how Harribel in base is still too much trouble for Bankai Hitsugaya, I suppose one can make an argument for the Ulquiorra, Harribel, Baraggan to be 7-A in base as well. Harribel in base was still able to pressure Hitsugaya and even regarded his power as nothing too impressive. It was also made clear that she was not going all out at all against him, even in base, till Yamamoto roasted her Fraccion and Hitsugaya unleashed his Bankai.

Yoruichi: She was rusty from a century of inaction and she fractured her hand while beating the shit out of Yammy, albeit she did still stomp him quickly. It's safe to say that in the many months leading up to the Fake Karakura arc, she did have some intense training.

As for Ulquiorra being wary of fighting her: It was Yoruichi plus Urahara. The combination of those two might have been what made him wary of staying and fighting. Even Aizen before Hogyoku fusion regarded Urahara as a threat.

As for the Visored: Same as with the Espada. Ichigo quickly stomped Hiyori and was about to kill her once Hichigo took over. I went with the same "safe bet" route as with the Espada.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thannk you for the explanation.

 

[HST_Master]

@Soldier

Yeah but in their later encounter after Ichigo loses his mask after 11 seconds Grimmjow proceeds to quickly overwhelm him until Rukia and Shinji come to his aid.

I understand your reasoning for rating Yoruichi as she is

Yeah but not only was she taken off guard by Zangetsu she never used her Shikai, later on we see Lisa fighting possessed bankai Ichigo with moderate difficulty without Shikai or Hollowfication and Kensei and Love handling him with less dificulty without Shikai or Hollowfying, Love only opting to Hollowfy after Ichigo near fully Hollowfies.


Lisa roughly keeping pace with Ichigo


Kensei fighting an even stronger Ichigo with only an unreleased Zanpaktou

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Yes, you make good points.

So what are the changes that are being proposed?

Base Ulquiorra, Harribel, Baraggan to be 7-A?

Visored at flat 7-A?

 

[HST_Master]

For the Espada, every base Espada from Grimmjow and up be 7-A (Grimmjow,Nnoitra,Ulquiorra,Harribel,Barragan and Stark)

and yes the Visord at 7-A as well, their reasoning can be that they were capable of fighting off a possessed Ichigo.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

A problem with scaling Grimmjow and Nnoitra to 7-A in base:

Grimmjow noted in his fight that Ichigo was struggling to suppress something (i.e. Hichigo) and he was not going truly all out. Ichigo's reiatsu at this point, as noted by Ulquiorra, was fluctuating between nothing notable and much greater than Ulquiorra's own.

Grimmjow got his ass handed to him by Shinji.

Nnoitra was no match for Zaraki with eye-patch.

 

[Dat_Dot]

Need Dot to see this scaling problem.

Vel you think too highly of me lel

 

[Dat_Dot]

A problem with scaling Grimmjow and Nnoitra to 7-A:
Grimmjow got his ass handed to him by Shinji.

Nnoitra was no match for Zaraki with eye-patch.

Didn't Arrancar Arc Kenpachi is rated "At least 7-A"? I mean Aizen has At least 7-A rating and he can stomp the other captain who is solid 7-A, so there's no surprise if 7-A Base Nnoitora is no match to Kenpachi IMO.

And didn't Grimmjoww already weaken after tanking multiiple getsuga tensho from 11 seconds Hollow Masked Ichigo before he fight Shinji?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yes!! Now Shinji vs Da Vinci might be more fairer!!!

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I'll go and re-read those fights and then get back.

 

[HST_Master]

Ichigo was getting overwhelmed quickly after his mask fell apart by Grimmjow even after being weakened by Ichigo's onslaught

 

[Dbknowitall]

hachi with Kido is as strong as a captain with bankai if you include his Mask his reitsu increases even further, he did manage to tank Soi fon bankai completely with only a shattered Barrier, this was without mask

the problem with bleach is that people think shikai and bankai are flat out transformations when they are just tools that use reitsu the same way Kido is used. so 2 shinigami with identical reitsu could potencially have different Potency based on abilities, Ichigo Getsuga increases the density of his reitsu then fires if of thus increasing its power like going through a filter, is how they use that reitsu that gives them their Tier. Hachi with Bankai would be identical as with him using Kido or yorouchi using Shunko to bankai.

arrancars on the other hand are transformation since they are returning to their original bodies this is why all of their stats get boost while on the shinigami side the boost depends solely on what technique or bankai they posses.

too many 7A that are as far apart as heaven and earth, Grimmjow is 7A but aizen can make him kneel by just looking at him, then you have nnoitra, ulquiorra, stark, halibel and more within the same tier. including Yamamoto

 

[LordGinSama]

Oh yeah bump, I hope this isn't too late. Since it's pretty important.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I keep forgetting about these content revisions. I am so tired.

Can someone summarize what is to be revised here?

Espada 4, 3, 2 to be put at 7-A in base? Makes sense, considering they can pressure combatants on Bankai Ichigo & Hitsugaya level even in base.

What else? Visored to be put at flat 7-A? I'm all for doing so with Shinji, as he was portrayed as being the strongest of them. What about the rest?

 

[LordGinSama]

You essentially summed it up yourself. The stronger Espada go up to 7-A. The Visords should also go up to 7-A however I'd like to bring up something about Aizen. Shouldn't he be High 7-A for stomping multiple 7-A + characters? I mean Ryüko Matoi is 7-A+ for the same reason and so is Ragyō Kiryüi. So I don't think it's too far fetched to put him at baseline High 7-A. Thoughts?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I also wouldn't mind putting Aizen and Yamamoto at something like baseline High 7-A. But it would mess up the scaling.

Here is how:

Would entail an upgrade for the likes of Kyoraku. I think Kubo has stated that he always stood a good chance of defeating Aizen. He did break a barrier erected by Aizen with a casual strike. This means his reiatsu is not too far off from Aizen's own. He has also taken attacks from an angry Yama-jii.

Ichigo (with Bankai plus Hollow mask) as of his fight with Ichimaru and Aizen would have to be bumped up to High 7-A for cutting Aizen half way across his torso. That'd entail a High 7-A boost for Ichimaru as well since he can pressure this Ichigo even without Bankai.

Don't even get me started on Starrk.

It'd just be plain controversial and messy. Bleach's power-scaling is messy enough as it is. I wouldn't say it's bad. Just messy.

Edit: Regarding the scaling of those Kill La Kill characters, I have no comment as I am not familiar with the verse. If you have a problem with that scaling, either make a Q&A thread asking for a proper clarification or a CRT asking for a re-evaluation of that scaling.

 

[LordGinSama]

I don't think Gin should scale to Aizen, Gin only damaged him with a durability negating attack and Aizen stomped him afterwards. That being said you'd be correct on everything else. Nah I don't have issues with the scaling of that verse I was just using it as an example. Yeah I'd only scale High 7-A to Ichigo, Yamamoto, Aizen, Gin ( Maybe ) and I think Isshin and Urahara.

 

[Dat_Dot]

I think we should focus on fixing the scaling for arrancar arc for now before get into High 7-A stuff. Though maybe we could just use "likely higher" or "likely High 7-A" for Aizen?

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

If Aizen becomes High 7-A, then the likes of Isshin and Urahara, Shunsui, Unohana would get bumped up as well.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

At least 7-A is probably the best option.

 

[Dr.Fix]

The problem with this thread is using Ichigo as the base to which all characters are compared when its a fact his power fulctuates and was exceptionally trash during the arrancar saga.

 

[Dat_Dot]

At least 7-A is probably the best option.

Ah I see, no upgrade for Aizen then.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

^ I actually agree with Dr. Fix. Which is why I did not put all the Visored at 7-A flat out.

But there is an argument for Ulquiorra, Harribel, Baraggan all being 7-A even in base. Ulquiorra proved himself a match for Ichigo in Bankai plus Hollow Mask, Harribel pressured Bankai Hitsugaya, Baraggan should be more powerful than Harribel.

 

[Dr.Fix]

^ I actually agree with Dr. Fix. Which is why I did not put all the Visored at 7-A flat out.
But there is an argument for Ulquiorra, Harribel, Baraggan all being 7-A even in base. Ulquiorra proved himself a match for Ichigo in Bankai plus Hollow Mask, Harribel pressured Bankai Hitsugaya, Baraggan should be more powerful than Harribel.

While I appreciate the nod, if you truly agree then I hope you see this bolded one is inamisable.

Barragan is around as powerful as harribel but slightly stronger. Shunsui had a hard time designating who was actually more powerful and without a clear indicator of who is more powerful between soifon and Toshiro there is just their rank. In other words I agree he is stronger but not by much.

As for the italics I strongly disagree. They fought for an extended period of time in base (Toshiro might have been in shikai). I think the panel you're referencing is when she pushed him into a building in the moment he went bankai. That attack was a bit like the avengers making Thanos stumble. Sure he moved, but he wasn't damaged and they are no way on his level. She then immediately went into ressurection intending to kill him but it didn't work. They then continued their fight until eventually Toshiro stopped holding back his full power.

Ultimately Toshiro was able to tank everything she could throw at him including her strongest attack combined with some of his own power. On the other hand Harribe could not match his power over the heavens and got bailed out by Wonderweiss.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

It's been some time since I had anything to do with that arc, but I'd put Harribel above Hitsugaya mostly.

He fought base Harribel for some time, but she was clearly holding back. When Yama-jii roasted her Fraccion, she immediately forced him into Bankai. You can see how desperately Hitsugaya even called out Bankai so he wouldn't get insta-murked. So I don't think we should put much weight into their off-panel fight.

Erm, so this is the area I'm not sure about. If I'm remembering correctly, Harribel was dominating and overpowering him before she even used Resurrecion. And when she did so, she forced Hitsugaya to use one of his trump cards so he wouldn't get almost split in half. Hitsugaya dodged her non-water based attacks, and noted that she was fighting him rather conservatively. In my opinion, Hitsugaya only lasted that long because of his smarts, Harribel fighting in a conservative manner, and their abilities countering each other's.

The only thing Hitsugaya did of note was to trap her in Tensou Juurin, which is his strongest attack. She clearly seemed like the superior one to me aside from that.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I agree she was holding back, but so was he. Of the two of them only one has to wait for the battle field to saturate. Of the two of them, only one was able to tank everything thrown at him.

Toshiro is clearly more powerful.

EDIT: also I found this . Seems Toshiro's AP might have to change if he was only at half as powerful as it should have been.

 

[HST_Master]

Saying Toshiro is more powerful than Harribel is implying he's more powerful than Ichigo, Zangetsu, and Ulquiorra which is not true.

Added on to that he required help from Hiyori and Lisa later against her0

 

[Dr.Fix]

^Nope read above regarding Ichigo.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

EDIT: also I found this . Seems Toshiro's AP might have to change if he was only at half as powerful as it should have been.

You misunderstand what he's saying here, especially in light of the new info we got about his Bankai in the final arc.

Hitsugaya wasn't saying he was at half power here. He was saying that his Bankai was simply immature and that half the time limit of his immature Bankai was over.

 

[Dr.Fix]

He said he didn't want to use it because it was too much too control. That's also why he didn't bringit out when Sajin and the others were close by and tanked Harribel's attack instead. Once he did his weakened state made it possible for him to use that without as much risk to the others.

Gnight. I'll reply tomorrow if there's something else needing clarification.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I re-read another version of that chapter. Now I'm confused.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

I'm sure that when Ulquiorra says that about Ichigo's fluctuation comes from the fact that White Ichigo is starting to take over, which would mean that Ichigo would get a Hollowfication boost for that...

At least that's how I saw it