Black Clover: What do you mean the scale is changing?

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

My Japanese friend confirmed Viz was right. Can we use the RAWs and not Fan translations to verify please?

Lowkey passive aggressive

Well I’m done for tonight

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This is giving very "my source is that I made it the f*ck up" vibes bro

Also even so, that's one very flimsy piece of evidence compared to... everything else

Lowkey passive aggressive

Well I’m done for tonight

Did I say we should use my piece of evidence tho? I said verify for yourselves lol damn. Y’all chill.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Let's get into the more solid shit, we know that Lumiere and Regular Licht are stated to be equals in terms of magic and abilities. We also see them directly shown as equals in their battle with Zagred. Lumiere and Licht (Licht was also Incomplete for the first few feats and overall only had one sword the entire fight BTW) both hurt and block attacks from Zagred, fighting basically on par with him. Zagred also manages to hurt Lumiere, so these guys all scale comparable to each other. Now here's the thing, we directly know that Licht took in a tremendous amount of negative Mana into his own body before becoming a Demon, this is directly telling us that Licht is being amped and has far greater Mana than normal when he is entering his Demon form. So if Lumiere and Licht are equals when Licht is in his normal state, and Demon Licht is explicitly a Licht that has added a massive amount of Negative Mana to his already normal reserves of Mana, then it's blatantly true that Demon Licht is stronger than Lumiere. At the very least, Demon Licht is very clearly above the Incomplete One Sword version of himself that was already relative to Zagred's regular level spells. So this also supports why Lumiere does not directly scale to Demon Licht's full power.

Demon Licht is NOT just Licht + Negative mana. Demon Licht is a Licht who had all of his magic power stolen by the royals and then used a magic stone to become a Demon. So that doesn't work as justification for Demon Licht being drastically more powerful than Lumiere, considering Base Licht and Lumiere were equals. (I agree he's at least a bit stronger than Lumiere, though)

The context of this scene suggests that Zagred > Demon Licht. This in turn means that even "One Sword Licht" (Let's just say Elf-Arc Licht) scales to Demon Licht. Let's go over why.

Once Licht realizes that Lumiere had never betrayed him, he pulls negative mana into his body to become an ancient demon. This is because he didn't want Zagred to take his body, and he believed that Lumiere actually had a shot against Demon Licht, at least a better one than if Zagred had his body.

This is supported by Zagred stating that Lumiere's light magic would have been useless on him if he'd achieved his true form. Since Lumiere's magic was NOT useless against Demon Licht: Zagred > Demon Licht. There are some people arguing this is a mistranslation, but this exact line is made in the anime. It would be highly unlikely that the team translating the subtitles would make the same exact error as Viz.

Therefore I propose that it be noted that Demon Licht's 1 hand blasts are 1/4 as strong as the country nuke on his profile, and this would directly scale to Lumiere, Demon Licht, Zagred, etc. So all of these characters end up becoming 15.72 Teratons (Country level). Now I know this would effect basically everything, but the point is that I believe this is the scale that would make the most sense. Lumiere still ends up scaling partially to the feat, supporting how he still somewhat relative to Demon Licht in their fight, and yet the narrative that he is weaker than Demon Licht is still preserved

Zagred, Elf-Arc Lumiere & Licht all scale above Demon Licht. As Lumiere's magic was able to wound a fully manifested Zagred who'd finally attained the true power he'd been attempting to get. Elf-Arc Lumiere is stronger than when he fought Demon Licht because he had absorbed a portion of his magic power. And Licht actually still scales to Lumiere which means he's kept some of the negative mana from the demon amp. I only think this would affect Lumiere's scaling from 500 years ago. But even then, that's debatable. Because Lumiere thought he at least had a shot at negating Demon Licht's attack. Remember that above I showed that Licht thought that Lumiere also had the capability to defeat his demon self.



With that being said: Zagred >= Elf-Arc Lumiere/Licht > Demon Licht > Pre-Series Licht and Lumiere

So this shouldn't effect the scaling chain in my opinion.

 

[Excellence616]

OP is okay

 

[ImmortalDread]

The OP has 3 staff approval, so it suffices and can be applied.

 

[Epsilon_R]

This is completely different in the fan translations

I checked the jap version beforehand, and Viz is the correct one

"まぁ私が体を乗っ取っていれば光魔法はまったく通じませんでした"

 

[Epsilon_R]

The OP has 3 staff approval, so it suffices and can be applied.

The CRT needs to last at least 24h before being applied. Besides there are important points that needs to be addressed

 

[ImmortalDread]

The CRT needs to last at least 24h before being applied. Besides there are important points that needs to be addressed

48 hours, but till then if no one will change their stance, it can be applied, I assume.

 

[Epsilon_R]

This doesn't really prove anything to me, just because he consistently doesn't show injuries for other Ancient Demons, doesn't mean that Demon Licht did sustain injuries from Lumiere.

You're the one who's assuming Licht didn't take any damage solely based on him not having any injuries. On the contrary, the statement clearly implies Light Magic did damage Licht

Also that statement about how Light Magic doesn't work seems conflicted between translations, I'll try to get the translations for the raws of that, but even if the translation from Viz is legit, Light Magic "working" on Demon Licht could simply refer to the fact that Lumiere is holding back Demon Licht from destroying everything, he could simply mean that Lumiere is keeping Demon Licht's attacks at bay, not that he would explicitly injure him, but that's just one small piece of the scaling contention

Lumiere is seen targeting Demon Licht specifically, not his just attacks. Assuming the statement is only referring to the latter and not the former too is just wrong as we have no way to assume that one is better than the other.

Even then, that would still imply that Lumiere would not be able to stop Zagred's attacks like he does with Demon Licht, meaning Zagred would be stronger.

You also have Licht who would rather become an Ancient Demon than giving his body to Zagred, which again implies that Lumiere would have been completely outmatched by a Zagred with a body.
And the other reason why Licht became an Ancient Demon was for Lumiere to kill him
"This is the last selfish request I'll make. You're the only one who could grant it. Lumiere, please.. kill me" ch 204.
If Demon Licht was that much stronger than Licht and Lumiere, why did he think Lumiere could kill him? If he was stronger than even a grimoire less Zagred for that matter, the better outcome would have been to just let Zagred take over his body

My main point of contention tho is how Regular Licht is Lumiere's equal and then Licht absorbs a bunch of negative mana on top of that. So Lumiere can't be equal to Regular Licht and then also equal to a Demon Licht that gained a bunch more power

Wrong, Licht had no Magic Power left as it was absorbed by the humans, just like the other elves (@BlackAstaSenpai sent this already). Demon Licht is just Negative Mana, not Licht's Magic Power + Negative Mana.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Demon Licht is NOT just Licht + Negative mana. Demon Licht is a Licht who had all of his magic power stolen by the royals and then used a magic stone to become a Demon. So that doesn't work as justification for Demon Licht being drastically more powerful than Lumiere, considering Base Licht and Lumiere were equals. (I agree he's at least a bit stronger than Lumiere, though)

The context of this scene suggests that Zagred > Demon Licht. This in turn means that even "One Sword Licht" (Let's just say Elf-Arc Licht) scales to Demon Licht. Let's go over why.

Once Licht realizes that Lumiere had never betrayed him, he pulls negative mana into his body to become an ancient demon. This is because he didn't want Zagred to take his body, and he believed that Lumiere actually had a shot against Demon Licht, at least a better one than if Zagred had his body.

This is supported by Zagred stating that Lumiere's light magic would have been useless on him if he'd achieved his true form. Since Lumiere's magic was NOT useless against Demon Licht: Zagred > Demon Licht. There are some people arguing this is a mistranslation, but this exact line is made in the anime. It would be highly unlikely that the team translating the subtitles would make the same exact error as Viz.





Zagred, Elf-Arc Lumiere & Licht all scale above Demon Licht. As Lumiere's magic was able to wound a fully manifested Zagred who'd finally attained the true power he'd been attempting to get. Elf-Arc Lumiere is stronger than when he fought Demon Licht because he had absorbed a portion of his magic power. And Licht actually still scales to Lumiere which means he's kept some of the negative mana from the demon amp. I only think this would affect Lumiere's scaling from 500 years ago. But even then, that's debatable. Because Lumiere thought he at least had a shot at negating Demon Licht's attack. Remember that above I showed that Licht thought that Lumiere also had the capability to defeat his demon self.



With that being said: Zagred >= Elf-Arc Lumiere/Licht > Demon Licht > Pre-Series Licht and Lumiere

So this shouldn't effect the scaling chain in my opinion.

You're the one who's assuming Licht didn't take any damage solely based on him not having any injuries. On the contrary, the statement clearly implies Light Magic did damage Licht

Lumiere is seen targeting Demon Licht specifically, not his just attacks. Assuming the statement is only referring to the latter and not the former too is just wrong as we have no way to assume that one is better than the other.

Even then, that would still imply that Lumiere would not be able to stop Zagred's attacks like he does with Demon Licht, meaning Zagred would be stronger.

You also have Licht who would rather become an Ancient Demon than giving his body to Zagred, which again implies that Lumiere would have been completely outmatched by a Zagred with a body.
And the other reason why Licht became an Ancient Demon was for Lumiere to kill him
"This is the last selfish request I'll make. You're the only one who could grant it. Lumiere, please.. kill me" ch 204.
If Demon Licht was that much stronger than Licht and Lumiere, why did he think Lumiere could kill him? If he was stronger than even a grimoire less Zagred for that matter, the better outcome would have been to just let Zagred take over his body


Wrong, Licht had no Magic Power left as it was absorbed by the humans, just like the other elves (@BlackAstaSenpai sent this already). Demon Licht is just Negative Mana, not Licht's Magic Power + Negative Mana.

Ok, let's go over some things. Licht having all his magic stolen is something I did not know, so that does not clearly support Demon Licht>Lumiere based on that alone. But there's something a lot of people are ignoring. Lumiere can still pose a small threat to Demon Licht and still overall be weaker. Someone can be somewhat effective and minorly damage an opponent and still be weaker overall, so even if Lumiere could minorly damage Licht, that does not mean he is fully comparable. Licht did put all his faith in Lumiere to defeat him, but this ultimately ended up being too hard for Lumiere, Licht needed to personally leave himself defenseless for Lumiere to defeat him. Licht clearly did not take any notable damage of any kind as we don't see him take any and see no lingering injuries. Zagred implying Light Magic "works" on Demon Licht does not mean that Lumiere explicitly damaged Licht, it could just as easily mean that Lumiere is holding Demon Licht back. Licht's big final attack is clearly more powerful than the individual hand beams that Lumiere matched. Literally, just look at Licht and Lumiere in comparison to each other's states. Licht doesn't have a scratch on him and yet Lumiere is injured all over. This is clearly not a fight of equals, Lumiere is outclassed and suffering far more injuries while being unconfident he could even block or stop the country nuking attack that Licht was gonna fire off.

Also when Zagred states that if he achieved a body, Light Magic wouldn't work on him... Don't Devils have Hearts that can't be destroyed? And Zagred has regen based off his word magic. Doesn't he quite literally say later in his own fight that their attacks don't work because of this fact? That statement could be about Devil immunity to conventional attacks

So yeah, despite Licht not having his own magic prior, I still think the feats and narrative support that Lumiere scales below Demon Licht, I still think he should scale to only 1/4 of the country nuke, that's my current stance

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Ok, let's go over some things. Licht having all his magic stolen is something I did not know, so that does not clearly support Demon Licht>Lumiere based on that alone. But there's something a lot of people are ignoring. Lumiere can still pose a small threat to Demon Licht and still overall be weaker. Someone can be somewhat effective and minorly damage an opponent and still be weaker overall, so even if Lumiere could minorly damage Licht, that does not mean he is fully comparable. Licht did put all his faith in Lumiere to defeat him, but this ultimately ended up being too hard for Lumiere, Licht needed to personally leave himself defenseless for Lumiere to defeat him. Licht clearly did not take any notable damage of any kind as we don't see him take any and see no lingering injuries. Zagred implying Light Magic "works" on Demon Licht does not mean that Lumiere explicitly damaged Licht, it could just as easily mean that Lumiere is holding Demon Licht back. Licht's big final attack is clearly more powerful than the individual hand beams that Lumiere matched. Literally, just look at Licht and Lumiere in comparison to each other's states. Licht doesn't have a scratch on him and yet Lumiere is injured all over. This is clearly not a fight of equals, Lumiere is outclassed and suffering far more injuries while being unconfident he could even block or stop the country nuking attack that Licht was gonna fire off.

Again, It's really not an issue of Elf-Massacre Lumiere being 1/4 the power of Demon Licht. I still disagree because of the reasons I stated above. I don't know what the exact rules on the wiki are regarding using the anime. But the manga doesn't show how Lumiere gets his injuries. The anime does, and it also shows Lumiere knocking Licht to the ground. And again, Licht had more confidence that Lumiere could defeat his demon form rather than Zagred.

Also when Zagred states that if he achieved a body, Light Magic wouldn't work on him... Don't Devils have Hearts that can't be destroyed? And Zagred has regen based off his word magic. Doesn't he quite literally say later in his own fight that their attacks don't work because of this fact? That statement could be about Devil immunity to conventional attacks

The statement from Viz is "Light Magic wouldn't have worked on me at all." But the light magic does work on him. Both in destroying his spells and damaging him. There is a difference between light magic not being able to kill him and light magic not working on him at all. You can also defeat a devil without killing them. As we've seen devils being knocked out on several occasions. So it goes from Lumiere not being able to damage Zagred, then after absorbing Demon Licht's power, he can damage Zagred.


1. Zagred thinks that Lumiere's Light Magic wouldn't do anything to him
2. When they actually fight, it does damage him. Meaning that Lumiere absorbing the power of Demon Licht bridged that gap.
3. Licht thinks Lumiere has a better shot at beating his demon form rather than Zagred.

There's just too much evidence that Zagred is stronger than Demon Licht, which grants that Elf-Arc Lumiere and Licht also do because they scale to Zagred thanks to Absorbtion and effect of negative mana.

It's one thing to make elven-massacre Lumiere 1/4 the power of Demon Licht, but completely different to put a Lumiere who absorbed Demon Licht's power at 1/4 of Demon Licht's power, especially when he has feats that show him to be superior.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Again, It's really not an issue of Elf-Massacre Lumiere being 1/4 the power of Demon Licht. I still disagree because of the reasons I stated above. I don't know what the exact rules on the wiki are regarding using the anime. But the manga doesn't show how Lumiere gets his injuries. The anime does, and it also shows Lumiere knocking Licht to the ground. And again, Licht had more confidence that Lumiere could defeat his demon form rather than Zagred.

Anime is unusable unless the scenes happen in both Manga and Anime or are confirmed to be canon filler

The statement from Viz is "Light Magic wouldn't have worked on me at all." But the light magic does work on him. Both in destroying his spells and damaging him. There is a difference between light magic not being able to kill him and light magic not working on him at all. You can also defeat a devil without killing them. As we've seen devils being knocked out on several occasions. So it goes from Lumiere not being able to damage Zagred, then after absorbing Demon Licht's power, he can damage Zagred.

Well that was after Zagred found out they had been affected by the other world and obtained the power to effect Devils

Before that when they did not have this power, Zagred believed they would not have been able to effect him for very likely this very reason

1. Zagred thinks that Lumiere's Light Magic wouldn't do anything to him
2. When they actually fight, it does damage him. Meaning that Lumiere absorbing the power of Demon Licht bridged that gap.
3. Licht thinks Lumiere has a better shot at beating his demon form rather than Zagred.

There's just too much evidence that Zagred is stronger than Demon Licht, which grants that Elf-Arc Lumiere and Licht also do because they scale to Zagred thanks to Absorbtion and effect of negative mana.

It's one thing to make elven-massacre Lumiere 1/4 the power of Demon Licht, but completely different to put a Lumiere who absorbed Demon Licht's power at 1/4 of Demon Licht's power, especially when he has feats that show him to be superior.

There's hardly any solid evidence that Zagred>Demon Licht, there's a few very loose statements that sorta imply he's maybe relative

 

[Therefir]

Given that Lumiere could only evenly clash with Demon Licht's one-handed attack, and wondered if he is even able to stop the full yield of the nuking attack that gave Demon Licht that tier in the first place, I still find myself agreeing with DemonGod's proposal.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Anime is unusable unless the scenes happen in both Manga and Anime or are confirmed to be canon filler

That's fine.

Well that was after Zagred found out they had been affected by the other world and obtained the power to effect Devils

You don't need to be affected by the other world to affect devils. You only need to be affected by the other world to destroy a devil's heart.

Here are non-arcane users damaging devils. Luck is not arcane and damaging Mid-Rank Devils. Nozel is not arcane and damaging Megicula. Gaja is not arcane and damaging Megicula.

Regular people can affect or damage devils.

Before that when they did not have this power, Zagred believed they would not have been able to effect him for very likely this very reason

There's hardly any solid evidence that Zagred>Demon Licht, there's a few very loose statements that sorta imply he's maybe relative

There is more evidence that Zagred > Demon Licht, than Demon Licht > Zagred.

The evidence that Demon Licht > Zagred:

He's stronger than Elven Massacre Lumiere.

*Which is rather weak evidence because it doesn't really do anything to actually to show that Demon Licht is stronger than Zagred. Becuase Zagred was fighting a stronger lumiere.


Evidence that Zagred > Demon Licht:

He's stronger than a Lumiere who absorbed Demon Licht's power, and Lumiere still needed Licht's help to fight him. (So, Zagred is superior to a version of Lumiere that is stronger than the one that Demon Licht is superior to.)

Zagred thinks that Lumiere wouldn't be able to do anything to him in a fight. Whereas Lumiere could at least fight Demon Licht, which is an implication that Zagred > Demon Licht. (Zagred thinks he's > Demon Licht.)

Licht thought that Lumiere had a better shot of beating his demon form than Zagred. (Even Licht thinks Zagred is above his demon form.)

*So Zagred has a superior feat than Demon Licht and has two statements that implicate him being stronger than Demon Licht in those contexts.

The evidence is rather clear that Zagred is more powerful than Demon Licht.

 

[Duedate8898]

While I can agree with Lumiere downscaling from Demon Licht for sure, I find the suggested down-scaling arbitrary. The idea that the attack is four times Demon Licht's normal attacks just because he uses four arms is one which is based on a weak idea that each arm is contributing values equally and that he requires all four arms in order for the attack to work.

What also must be said is the idea that Fully Formed Zagred is weaker than demon licht is also an odd one since he is a High Ranking Devil in the same realm as the likes of the Dark Triads and they treat the demons they wield to fight against the clover knights as grunts.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Given that Lumiere could only evenly clash with Demon Licht's one-handed attack, and wondered if he is even able to stop the full yield of the nuking attack that gave Demon Licht that tier in the first place, I still find myself agreeing with DemonGod's proposal.

What do you think about Zagred scaling to Demon Licht?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I think Zagred should scale above Demon Licht if anything.

 

[CloverDragon03]

What also must be said is the idea that Fully Formed Zagred is weaker than demon licht is also an odd one since he is a High Ranking Devil in the same realm as the likes of the Dark Triads and they treat the demons they wield to fight against the clover knights as grunts.

Zagred is not in the same realm as the Dark Triad's devils. The order is low-rank -> mid-rank -> high-rank -> supreme devils

The Dark Triad devils are supreme devils, like Beelzebub, Megicula, Lucifero, etc., and Zagred is not in that league

 

[chosen]

Zagred is not in the same realm as the Dark Triad's devils. The order is low-rank -> mid-rank -> high-rank -> supreme devils

The Dark Triad devils are supreme devils, like Beelzebub, Megicula, Lucifero, etc., and Zagred is not in that league

I mean even though They have supreme devils, in strength they would moreso somewhere around god tiers high ranks

Nacht says they are below supreme devils in general and the weakest ones (the twins) are stated above them in volume character description

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So uhhhh can this be added?

Cant say I agree, cant say I disagree either. So I will stay neutral. It’s just really hard to believe Zagred is weaker than demon licht but the evidence in favor of that would just get dismissed easily anyway. And about Lumiere scaling to Demon Licht? There is evidence in the manga (albeit already easily dismissed) and more so in the anime that they scale. Although I see where the OP comes from with Lumiere’s statements on the Demon’s charged up attack. Also there were somethings I disagree with in the OP that don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. So id like to just get this added so we can all move on to other things.

@CloverDragon03 what does the current scale look like for all of us to see?

@DemonGodMitchAubin i guess we can close the thread after the info has been provided.

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[Barbar01]

I agree

 

[CloverDragon03]

So uhhhh can this be added?

Cant say I agree, cant say I disagree either. So I will stay neutral. It’s just really hard to believe Zagred is weaker than demon licht but the evidence in favor of that would just get dismissed easily anyway. And about Lumiere scaling to Demon Licht? There is evidence in the manga (albeit already easily dismissed) and more so in the anime that they scale. Although I see where the OP comes from with Lumiere’s statements on the Demon’s charged up attack. Also there were somethings I disagree with in the OP that don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. So id like to just get this added so we can all move on to other things.

@CloverDragon03 what does the current scale look like for all of us to see?

@DemonGodMitchAubin i guess we can close the thread after the info has been provided.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Essentially, cut down everyone’s AP that is 6-B and up by 1/4

Also AD Noelle downscales from 70% Vanica still, but now she’ll be baseline 6-A going by the new ratings

And of course the addition for Conquering Eon will be different too

 

[Epsilon_R]

So uhhhh can this be added?

Cant say I agree, cant say I disagree either. So I will stay neutral. It’s just really hard to believe Zagred is weaker than demon licht but the evidence in favor of that would just get dismissed easily anyway. And about Lumiere scaling to Demon Licht? There is evidence in the manga (albeit already easily dismissed) and more so in the anime that they scale. Although I see where the OP comes from with Lumiere’s statements on the Demon’s charged up attack. Also there were somethings I disagree with in the OP that don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. So id like to just get this added so we can all move on to other things.

@CloverDragon03 what does the current scale look like for all of us to see?

@DemonGodMitchAubin i guess we can close the thread after the info has been provided.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Sorry but you can't just ask to close the thread when there are still points that need to be addressed just because "it's gonna be dismissed anyway" that's not how we do things.

That's also rude to Broku who made a long post with arguments that haven't been addressed yet

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Sorry but you can't just ask to close the thread when there are still points that need to be addressed just because "it's gonna be dismissed anyway" that's not how we do things.

That's also rude to Broku who made a long post with arguments that haven't been addressed yet

Look I’m already pissed off for being picked on by two staff members that are held in high regards for simply and politely suggesting that things be done the right way. The same staff members that are the only ones capable of budging @DarkDragonMedeus in any direction. @Therefir has reiterated his support but hasnt said a thing on his stance on wether or not Zagred > Demon Licht. Which I don’t blame him, he has a ******* life.

So I am sorry for trying to just do away with this thread before @ImmortalDread comes in here and do it herself based on the stupid 48 hour rule when discussions are actively going on. Hell, I had no idea that CGMs and a staff OP were counted towards approval. And I hope it’s just an oversight on Dread’s part.

Look I just barely recovered from covid this passed few days somehow. Most of my friends are off on some where while I have to stay at home during spring break to protect them, which is so annoying in of itself. So my apologies @BlackAstaSenpai, I will try to call more staff members to give input.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Look I’m already pissed off for being picked on by two staff members that are held in high regards for simply and politely suggesting that things be done the right way. The same staff members that are the only ones capable of budging @DarkDragonMedeus in any direction. @Therefir has reiterated his support but hasnt said a thing on his stance on wether or not Zagred > Demon Licht. Which I don’t blame him, he has a ******* life.

I didn't realize you thought I was making fun of you with this. I intended it to be light banter, so I apologize if it came off as anything beyond that.

And if that's what the raws state, I'm fine with using that and Viz instead of fan translations, I just still think it's comparatively flimsy when measured up against everything else

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I didn't realize you thought I was making fun of you with this. I intended it to be light banter, so I apologize if it came off as anything beyond that.

It’s fine. Maybe on another day I would’ve seen things differently. This week just isn’t my week.

And if that's what the raws state, I'm fine with using that and Viz instead of fan translations, I just still think it's comparatively flimsy when measured up against everything else

I understand but it’s still something to have at the back of everyone’s mind as they respond to @BlackAstaSenpai’s arguments (on, at the very least, why Zagred > Demon Licht, I’m indifferent on where alive lumiere ends up).

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

This change to the entire scaling chain hinges on the notion that Demon Licht > Zagred, which is outweighed by the evidence I provided that it's the opposite. If there is no sufficient evidence provided that Demon Licht > Zagred, then the only thing that would change is a pre-absorption Lumiere. I'm neutral on Lumiere scaling 1/4 to Demon Licht, but disagree that Demon Licht > Zagred which would usher in the changes.

 

[Therefir]

He's stronger than a Lumiere who absorbed Demon Licht's power, and Lumiere still needed Licht's help to fight him. (So, Zagred is superior to a version of Lumiere that is stronger than the one that Demon Licht is superior to.)

Zagred thinks that Lumiere wouldn't be able to do anything to him in a fight. Whereas Lumiere could at least fight Demon Licht, which is an implication that Zagred > Demon Licht. (Zagred thinks he's > Demon Licht.)

Licht thought that Lumiere had a better shot of beating his demon form than Zagred. (Even Licht thinks Zagred is above his demon form.)

*So Zagred has a superior feat than Demon Licht and has two statements that implicate him being stronger than Demon Licht in those contexts.

The evidence is rather clear that Zagred is more powerful than Demon Licht.

Can you share the panels detailing these statements?

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Can you share the panels detailing these statements?

I already did in my original response

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Can you share the panels detailing these statements?

Demon Licht is NOT just Licht + Negative mana. Demon Licht is a Licht who had all of his magic power stolen by the royals and then used a magic stone to become a Demon. So that doesn't work as justification for Demon Licht being drastically more powerful than Lumiere, considering Base Licht and Lumiere were equals. (I agree he's at least a bit stronger than Lumiere, though)

The context of this scene suggests that Zagred > Demon Licht. This in turn means that even "One Sword Licht" (Let's just say Elf-Arc Licht) scales to Demon Licht. Let's go over why.

Once Licht realizes that Lumiere had never betrayed him, he pulls negative mana into his body to become an ancient demon. This is because he didn't want Zagred to take his body, and he believed that Lumiere actually had a shot against Demon Licht, at least a better one than if Zagred had his body.

This is supported by Zagred stating that Lumiere's light magic would have been useless on him if he'd achieved his true form. Since Lumiere's magic was NOT useless against Demon Licht: Zagred > Demon Licht. There are some people arguing this is a mistranslation, but this exact line is made in the anime. It would be highly unlikely that the team translating the subtitles would make the same exact error as Viz.





Zagred, Elf-Arc Lumiere & Licht all scale above Demon Licht. As Lumiere's magic was able to wound a fully manifested Zagred who'd finally attained the true power he'd been attempting to get. Elf-Arc Lumiere is stronger than when he fought Demon Licht because he had absorbed a portion of his magic power. And Licht actually still scales to Lumiere which means he's kept some of the negative mana from the demon amp. I only think this would affect Lumiere's scaling from 500 years ago. But even then, that's debatable. Because Lumiere thought he at least had a shot at negating Demon Licht's attack. Remember that above I showed that Licht thought that Lumiere also had the capability to defeat his demon self.



With that being said: Zagred >= Elf-Arc Lumiere/Licht > Demon Licht > Pre-Series Licht and Lumiere

So this shouldn't effect the scaling chain in my opinion.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Couldn't this just be due to other factors though?

For instance, if Zagred gained a body, he'd have the insane properties of a devil's heart, he'd be able to use his Word Soul Magic at its full capacity (since he'd be taking the grimoire too), etc.

What indicates that this is strictly a matter of strength?

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Couldn't this just be due to other factors though?

For instance, if Zagred gained a body, he'd have the insane properties of a devil's heart, he'd be able to use his Word Soul Magic at its full capacity (since he'd be taking the grimoire too), etc.

What indicates that this is strictly a matter of strength?

Because he says that the Light Magic would be useless against him or wouldn't have worked on him at all. This means it wouldn't harm him, distract him, nor be used to slow him down. Any of these would be useful.

Zagred thinks he's considerably above pre-absorbtion Lumiere. But post-absorbtion Lumiere can damage Zagred, destroy his magic, land hits, etc.

Demon Licht and Zagred fought two different versions of Lumiere. Demon Licht fought his regular version. Zagred fought a Lumiere that was amped by the magic he absorbed from Demon Licht. (With Licht Helping him too)

Also, Lumiere used mana zone against Zagred and not Licht

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because he says that the Light Magic would be useless against him or wouldn't have worked on him at all. This means it wouldn't harm him, distract him, nor be used to slow him down. Any of these would be useful.

Zagred thinks he's considerably above pre-absorbtion Lumiere. But post-absorbtion Lumiere can damage Zagred, destroy his magic, land hits, etc.

Demon Licht and Zagred fought two different versions of Lumiere. Demon Licht fought his regular version. Zagred fought a Lumiere that was amped by the magic he absorbed from Demon Licht. (With Licht Helping him too)

Also, Lumiere used mana zone against Zagred and not Licht

This... doesn't necessarily answer my question, if I'm being honest.

Take Conquering Eon for instance. You could say it was useless against Zagred, as it failed to finish him off due to not destroying his heart and he regenerated afterwards, essentially as if nothing happened. But clearly, it did significant damage, as it vaporized his body.

Because of Zagred's unique properties, being useless doesn't exactly mean being straight up unable to harm him. That's an extrapolation that you need to properly substantiate.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

This... doesn't necessarily answer my question, if I'm being honest.

Take Conquering Eon for instance. You could say it was useless against Zagred, as it failed to finish him off due to not destroying his heart and he regenerated afterwards, essentially as if nothing happened. But clearly, it did significant damage, as it vaporized his body.

Because of Zagred's unique properties, being useless doesn't exactly mean being straight up unable to harm him. That's an extrapolation that you need to properly substantiate.

It does.

Your idea of useless just doesn't work in the example. In the context of the Lumiere vs Demon Licht fight, Lumiere's whole goal was to not let Licht become a murderer and protect the Clover population. Damaging/obliterating Zagred would actually be useful at letting more clover citizens evacuate, run, hide, etc. As stated in my previous posts. For Lumiere to be truly useless his magic wouldn't damage him or anything. Sure, him killing Zagred is futile. But to say that he'd need to be able to kill him to be useful isn't supported.

Besides it says in Viz, "Wouldn't work on me, at all." "At all" is adding extra clarification of the futility of his magic against him in any fashion.

But even if this wasn't the case, this doesn't do anything to counter the main point:
Zagred was fighting a stronger Lumiere than Demon Licht was.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It does.

Your idea of useless just doesn't work in the example. In the context of the Lumiere vs Demon Licht fight, Lumiere's whole goal was to not let Licht become a murderer and protect the Clover population. Damaging/obliterating Zagred would actually be useful at letting more clover citizens evacuate, run, hide, etc. As stated in my previous posts. For Lumiere to be truly useless his magic wouldn't damage him or anything. Sure, him killing Zagred is futile. But to say that he'd need to be able to kill him to be useful isn't supported.

How would Zagred know that "not letting Licht become a murderer" was Lumiere's goal? He doesn't say this aloud, he says this in his head.

As far as Zagred can tell, his goal is victory.

Besides it says in Viz, "Wouldn't work on me, at all." "At all" is adding extra clarification of the futility of his magic against him in any fashion.

But even if this wasn't the case, this doesn't do anything to counter the main point:
Zagred was fighting a stronger Lumiere than Demon Licht was.

Again, given Zagred's devil heart + regeneration, even Conquering Eon didn't work on him "at all"

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

How would Zagred know that "not letting Licht become a murderer" was Lumiere's goal? He doesn't say this aloud, he says this in his head.

As far as Zagred can tell, his goal is victory.

Are you implying that Zagred couldn't gather that Lumiere didn't want Licht to kill innocent people? Zagred is the person who intricately planned the demise of the elf clan.

Zagred is certainly more than smart enough to recognize that Lumiere would want to protect the citizens of the Clover kingdom as well.

Of course Lumiere's goal would be victory, but he'd fight him just as he did Licht, with the intent also to save the citizens of the Clover Kingdom.

Again, given Zagred's devil heart + regeneration, even Conquering Eon didn't work on him "at all"

Did it kill him? No. Did it work on him at all? yes. It literally blew him to smithereens.

As I said. Even IF there was no other support, Zagred literally was fighting a stronger Lumiere.

Lumiere thought he stood a chance at stopping Demon Licht. (He first states he will block it. Then questions himself. Which means he would have a fair shot of blocking it).

Lumiere, who absorbed negative mana from Demon Licht, thought he had no chance against Zagred (even with Licht's help) and left it to Asta and Yuno.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Are you implying that Zagred couldn't gather that Lumiere didn't want Licht to kill innocent people? Zagred is the person who intricately planned the demise of the elf clan.

Zagred is certainly more than smart enough to recognize that Lumiere would want to protect the citizens of the Clover kingdom as well.

Of course Lumiere's goal would be victory, but he'd fight him just as he did Licht, with the intent also to save the citizens of the Clover Kingdom.

Fair enough, but my point remains that I feel there are too many factors at play to say this is merely a matter of strength.

Did it kill him? No. Did it work on him at all? yes. It literally blew him to smithereens.

As I said. Even IF there was no other support, Zagred literally was fighting a stronger Lumiere.

Lumiere thought he stood a chance at stopping Demon Licht. (He first states he will block it. Then questions himself. Which means he would have a fair shot of blocking it).

Lumiere, who absorbed negative mana from Demon Licht, thought he had no chance against Zagred (even with Licht's help) and left it to Asta and Yuno.

Well the scan you're using to say Lumiere gave up on the fight doesn't really say he doesn't think he stands a chance. In fact, he fought better against Zagred than against Demon Licht.

He simply opted to, alongside Licht, use his powers to protect everyone else.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Fair enough, but my point remains that I feel there are too many factors at play to say this is merely a matter of strength.

I'm not saying it would be only about strength. Killing Zagred would be encompassed within the statement naturally.

Well the scan you're using to say Lumiere gave up on the fight doesn't really say he doesn't think he stands a chance. In fact, he fought better against Zagred than against Demon Licht.

He fought better against Zagred because he was amped and had help.

He simply opted to, alongside Licht, use his powers to protect everyone else.

Still, he failed to defeat him, and once Asta and Yuno unveiled their powerups, he pretty much stepped aside. At the very least it showed that he had a greater confidence in Asta and Yuno than him and Licht. Asta and Yuno would still need to get even stronger beyond that to end up defeating Zagred.

1. Zagred fought 2v1 against stronger characters than Demon Licht had to.
2. Zagred then fought 2v1 against even stronger characters than Licht and Lumiere (Asta and Yuno). (this should be implied at least because of Lumiere letting them take over the fight)
3. Asta and Yuno needed to power up even more (with an addition from Licht & Lumiere's magic) to end up defeating a Zagred, who also got even stronger from his negative mana rage boost.

Again, I just really think these gaps are too big to try and justify Zagred being weaker than Demon Licht, let alone 4x.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Zagred, who also got even stronger from his negative mana rage boost.

That was Zagred’s full power, he was never amped with anything, he just went all out.

That even helps your point and it’s also in the scan you sent.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

That was Zagred’s full power, he was never amped with anything, he just went all out.

That even helps your point and it’s also in the scan you sent.

I see it moreso as it's a rage boost because he just got pissed off and his power went higher and I think Charla just thought he was holding back. Could be that too though.