Black Clover: Durability Negation, Non Physical Interaction, Stealth & Power Nullification. THE FINAL SHOWDOWN

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Better wait for the arc to end

It is still vague to establish anything

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Bruh…

shouldn’t be that vague…

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

For me the correct thing to do would be just to revise the verse after the arc is over

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Fair enough,

will add more abilities for revision to the OP as they come. Then finalize arguments at the end of the arc

 

[Enigmatic_Rurouni]

Due to Asta's passive power nullification in Devil Union mode, he is ineffective in a team with other mages as any magical advantages offered by a mage would not work on him. As shown with Natch and Yami's Kid's playground

I agree with most of the CRT, for this tho I ain’t too sure if we should add this(not because it’s wrong) because having that weakness would pretty much be for team up scenarios, not specifically 1 vs 1. If we do add this, we can add a similar note that we have for Asta and his compound magic techniques.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No problemo

 

[45Saef]

following

 

[Maxeez]

following

 

[Deceived3596]

First, Durability Negation

Asta in Devil Union Mode should have durability negation.
it is clear that Lucifero is far stronger than Asta, Capable of holding a strike from Asta with his pure strength but he realized Asta was able to harm him as he cut himself with Asta's Sword. Despite being far stronger than Asta, Lucifero is very wary of being killed by Asta's antimagic slashes as a result even though he is not even fazed by any of the attacks from the captains as he simply walks right through all of their attacks. with Lucifero even going as far as to deem him the most Dangerous but the easiest to kill..

I'm in agreement with everyone about this, it's more so a weakness that Devils have against Anti-Magic as shown with Zagred and Lucifero, at most i would give this Limited Durability Negation but only against demonic entities.

Secondly, Non-physical Interaction

Asta is capable of slashing Naamah and Lillith who both have intangible bodies.

Asta had to use Demon Destroyer to negate the intang of Naamah and Lilith before he could interact with them so i definitely disagree with this.

Thrid we have Power Nullification.

Yuno is capable of nullifying Lucifero's gravity magic in a short radius, The stars are also unaffected by the gravity

Lastly, Stealth and Clone creation with Kid's Playground

This spell is used to create an environment where the casters and their teammates literally hide in the shadows and sneak up on a target from any angle for an attack, it also creates distractions in form of clones which take the form of those within the shadows, physically attack the opponent.

This should be added to Unite Mode Canis Natch and Yami's profiles

sigh, Weakness for Asta:

Due to Asta's passive power nullification in Devil Union mode, he is ineffective in a team with other mages as any magical advantages offered by a mage would not work on him. As shown with Natch and Yami's Kid's playground

Lucifero: Body Control, manipulated his wings into arms to impale yami and nacht

I agree with all of this.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Asta had to use Demon Destroyer to negate the intang of Naamah and Lilith before he could interact with them so i definitely disagree with this.

Their regular bodies are intangible this is why Nacht's physical attacks don't work on them. Asta was still capable of cutting Naamah regardless because he wasn't all over the place. This means his attacks work on them.

Asta needed his demon destroyer to properly deal with them and protect himself because the twins made themselves into huge icy flames filling the area making themselves difficult to kill while also attacking from several angles. Asta needed to stop their attack barrages and kill one of them in one fell swoop. He needed their bodies to be in front of him and not all over the place so he can locate the heart and strike them in one fell swoop, effectively killing them.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I'm in agreement with everyone about this, it's more so a weakness that Devils have against Anti-Magic as shown with Zagred and Lucifero, at most i would give this Limited Durability Negation but only against demonic entities.

Limited Durability Negation is fine. Works on Devils and magical beings

 

[Deceived3596]

Their regular bodies are intangible this is why Nacht's physical attacks don't work on them. Asta was still capable of cutting Naamah regardless because he wasn't all over the place. This means his attacks work on them.

Nacht's attack didn't physically work since it was attacking that specific part of the body which was intangible, neither Naamah nor Lilith are passively intangible nor are their entire bodies intangible either, which is why Asta was able to slice of Naamah's arm but needed Demon Destroyer to actually hit them when they turned the vast majority of their bodies into Ice (Lilith) and Fire (Naamah).

Asta needed his demon destroyer to properly deal with them and protect himself because the twins made themselves into huge icy flames filling the area making themselves difficult to kill while also attacking from several angles. Asta needed to stop their attack barrages and kill one of them in one fell swoop. He needed their bodies to be in front of him and not all over the place so he can locate the heart and strike them in one fell swoop, effectively killing them.

He needed to do both in my opinion given the evidence i have posted within this post and re-reading the entire fight again.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Hi hi,

Morning,

Nacht's attack didn't physically work since it was attacking that specific part of the body which was intangible, neither Naamah nor Lilith are passively intangible nor are their entire bodies intangible either

My apologies, but how do your conclusions match the scans provided. In the previous page before this, Nacht aimed for what he thought was a physical part of the body and his kick simply went straight through, which is why he concluded that his attacks don't work on them and they. Whereas Asta's attack simply works on them. They are passively intangible and Asta possesses NPI with his slashes.

Here Naamah's body vanished in order to avoid a direct attack from Asta. Naamah did not turn intan to avoid the attack because he is already in that state and that didn't work. He simply disappeared, Nacht is even surprised by this and says they vanished and appeared elsewhere. They proceeded to continually move through the ice and fire they filled the area with to avoid getting hit, simultaneously attacking Asta from a distance from several angles as shown in your scan. Asta, not wanting to get hit from several angles chasing their devil hearts down, resorted to his best option. Negating their magic with Destroyer makes it very convenient and less time-consuming. Proceeds to kill one of them in a single strike with ease. This is the most logical interpretation for someone who is running out of time.

He needed to do both in my opinion given the evidence i have posted within this post and re-reading the entire fight again.

Given the evidence I also provided all up till now point towards Asta needing a time cost-effective method of dealing with them. Going directly towards their heart in their state is not the best idea even if he knows he can slash it. They will just keep their distance and would've continued to vanish into their fire and ice in the surrounding areas. This may not even count for Intan but rather some form of limited or short-range Teleportation since they disappear, travel in form of their elements and appear elsewhere on the same page. peep them in that firey and icy mess I'm sure you missed them.

 

[Deceived3596]

My apologies, but how do your conclusions match the scans proved. In the previous page before this, Nacht aimed for what he thought was a physical part of the body and his kick simply went straight through

Because Naamah turned his torso into flames which caused Nacht's attack to basically phase right through him, that literally proves my point that Naamah's and Lilith's intang isn't passive by any-means and has to actively be turned on.

which is why he concluded that his attacks don't work on them and they. Whereas Asta's attack simply works on them. They are passively intangible and Asta possesses NPI with his slashes.

No they aren't as proven by the entire context of their fights against Nacht and Asta.

Here Naamah's body vanished in order to avoid a direct attack from Asta.

Homie this scan literally proves they aren't passively intangible, they have to ACTIVELY turn their bodies into their specific element for the intangibility to work, which is what Naamah did and he was avoiding the attack since it was targeting a part of his body which was "physical" instead of the parts of himself which were turned into flames.

Naamah did not turn intan to avoid the attack because he is already in that state and that didn't work. He simply disappeared, Nacht is even surprised by this and says they vanished and appeared elsewhere.

Yes he did, Nacht literally said "Their PHYSICAL BODIES VANISHED" this is Nacht referencing both Lilith and Naamah turning both their bodies into their respective elements to become intangible, not Naamah simply vanishing, re-read Nacht's statement again and the context of the entire panel and you'll see my interpretation is the correct one.

Negating their magic with Destroyer makes it very convenient and less time-consuming. Proceeds to kill one of them in a single strike with ease. This is the most logical interpretation for someone who is running out of time.

No it isn't as i previously explained, he couldn't actively hit them with his normal Anti-Magic attacks so he had to use Demon Destroyer to negate both of their intangibility. Like i'm fine with conceding this was an aspect of why Asta used it but the main reason why he used it was because he couldn't hit them whilst they were both intangible.

This may not even count for Intan but rather some form of limited or short-range Teleportation since they disappear, travel in form of their elements and appear elsewhere on the same page

That's Naamah turning intangible to phase through Nacht's attack, like that shit is extremely blatant and you're telling me it "may" not even count for Intang but rather short-range Teleportation......

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Because Naamah turned his torso into flames which caused Nacht's attack to basically phase right through him, that literally proves my point that Naamah's and Lilith's intang isn't passive by any-means and has to actively be turned on.

Except they didn't, there is nothing that indicates a form of activation. Like I said Nacht attempt to hit them but he phases through. They turn to their elements when they are hit. Nacht reinforces this idea twice by saying his attacks don't work on them and he literally can't touch them.

No they aren't as proven by the entire context of their fights against Nacht and Asta.

This context is due to how you interpreted the fight.

Homie this scan literally proves they aren't passively intangible, they have to ACTIVELY turn their bodies into their specific element for the intangibility to work, which is what Naamah did and he was avoiding the attack since it was targeting a part of his body which was "physical" instead of the parts of himself which were turned into flames.

How does the scan disprove anything when the person performing the "Active intan" feat doesn't trust Asta's attack will phase through?

Naamah vanished in a successful attempt to dodge Asta's strike. With your argument Naamah should've just turned his body to flames and take the attack head on instead of vanishing.

Instead he vanished and he is all the way over here. Don't forget to scroll down for a zoom in

There was no reason for him to leave the area if he activated his intan right? He should stayed there and let that slash phase through like a man hehe.

Yes he did, Nacht literally said "Their PHYSICAL BODIES VANISHED" this is Nacht referencing both Lilith and Naamah turning both their bodies into their respective elements to become intangible, not Naamah simply vanishing, re-read Nacht's statement again and the context of the entire panel and you'll see my interpretation is the correct one.

Now that I have shown you my reasoning above can you now see that Nacht meant their physical bodies literally just vanished? He was referring to their ability to vanish into flames. How is Asta supposed to locate the heart and slash it when their bodies blend within the fire and ice? How is asta even supposed to attack? It's not because they are intangible that he used Demon destroyer. It is because they were simply a hassle, a nuisance to deal with.

That's Naamah turning intangible to phase through Nacht's attack, like that shit is extremely blatant and you're telling me it "may" not even count for Intang but rather short-range Teleportation......

I used the wrong scan lmao. My bad

Im meant to send a cropped version of the Asta vs Naamah situation

But i'll still make this Nacht-Naamah scan useful to the point I'm about to make now.

Nacht attacked him from their blind spot and he still phased through Naamah due to his body automatically going intan. This is why i said Naamah and Lillith are passive intan in the first place

 

[CloverDragon03]

This seems more like a weakness of Lucifero himself than Anti-Magic just negating all durability.

I agree with this. Also, Yami was able to hurt Lucifero and Nacht says that both Yami and Asta have a chance against Lucifero. Arcane Stage mages are the most effective against Lucifero, and both Yami and Asta are the strongest in the group (Yuno is Saint Stage and Nacht is Arcane Stage, but Yuno's Saint Spirit of Zephyr did absolutely nothing to Lucifero and Nacht is even weaker)

 

[CloverDragon03]

The profile should go like this:
Asta: Durability Negation with Anti Magic slashes in Union Mode (capable of cutting Lucifero with a slash, forcing him to be wary of all his Anti-Magic attacks, despite being utterly outmatched in strength).

Disagree for reasons I just mentioned

Secondly, Non-physical Interaction

Asta is capable of slashing Naamah and Lillith who both have intangible bodies.

Disagree, Asta had to actively use his Demon-Destroyer Sword to negate their elemental intangibility in order to make them tangible to cut them

Thrid we have Power Nullification.

Yuno is capable of nullifying Lucifero's gravity magic in a short radius, The stars are also unaffected by the gravity

Lastly, Stealth and Clone creation with Kid's Playground

This spell is used to create an environment where the casters and their teammates literally hide in the shadows and sneak up on a target from any angle for an attack, it also creates distractions in form of clones which take the form of those within the shadows, physically attack the opponent.

This should be added to Unite Mode Canis Natch and Yami's profiles

sigh, Weakness for Asta:

Due to Asta's passive power nullification in Devil Union mode, he is ineffective in a team with other mages as any magical advantages offered by a mage would not work on him. As shown with Natch and Yami's Kid's playground

Lucifero: Body Control, manipulated his wings into arms to impale yami and nacht

The rest of this is fine, though Lucifero's Body Control is already on his profile. I added that myself.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I agree with this. Also, Yami was able to hurt Lucifero and Nacht says that both Yami and Asta have a chance against Lucifero. Arcane Stage mages are the most effective against Lucifero, and both Yami and Asta are the strongest in the group (Yuno is Saint Stage and Nacht is Arcane Stage, but Yuno's Saint Spirit of Zephyr did absolutely nothing to Lucifero and Nacht is even weaker)

Arcane and Saint Stage are only effective for dealing with the heart's invulnerability. The dilemma is how to actually get to the heart through Lucifero's durability. Yami's new sword combined with his sudden burst in magic power was enough to damage Lucifero. It wasn't because he was simply Arcane. It was because his net magic power was just high enough to slightly damage a casual Lucifero. In the next chapter Yami definitely couldn't damage him anymore when Luci got serious. The same goes for Yuno cuz he has less magic power than Yami, he definitely isn't going to damage Lucifero.

Nacht is arcane? Do devil rituals automatically make you arcane? Hmm... Idk. I'll assume Nacht isn't but it begs the question if devil powers can kill other devils. Probably. Still, Nacht needs to get past any devil's durability and actually affect the devil heart for that question to be answered. He cant cuz he has the least magic power in the 4 apart from Asta.

What do you think about Limited durability negation to devils and magical beings?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Durability negation against devils ain't happening because Incomplete Devil Union Asta is superior to Post-Second Grimoire Spirit Dive Yuno to begin with, which explains why he can actually somewhat hurt Lucifero. It's a matter of Asta's strength, and the fact that Nacht considers Asta and Yami to be the only ones capable of beating Lucifero supports this.

Devils also aren't made of magic, and that'd be the only way in which Anti-Magic would negate durability.

 

[KingTempest]

Can we give these forms nicknames?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Can we give these forms nicknames?

Hehe.

abbreviations maybe?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Spirit Dive Yuno
Devil Union Asta
Unite mode {insert devil here} Nacht
Yami

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Durability negation against devils ain't happening because Incomplete Devil Union Asta is superior to Post-Second Grimoire Spirit Dive Yuno to begin with, which explains why he can actually somewhat hurt Lucifero. It's a matter of Asta's strength, and the fact that Nacht considers Asta and Yami to be the only ones capable of beating Lucifero supports this.

Devils also aren't made of magic, and that'd be the only way in which Anti-Magic would negate durability.

Why Yuno? Why didn't you compare to this amped Yami who was capable of blocking a punch from Lucifero? Same punch that sends Asta flying any day. But if you compare the damages done to Luci by both of them, Yami deals the least damage of the two right? but we know he is superior to asta at that point in time yes? but it's Asta Lucifero fears more right? It is heavily implied that any one of those antimagic slashes will go through Lucifero like it's nothing effectively leaving him in a critical state or even killing him. Lucifero considers Asta the most dangerous and the easiest to kill. He sees Yami as the second most dangerous because dark magic could kill him too only if Yami gets strong enough to get through his durability and to his devil heart. Yami is superior to Asta and he is unable to strike fear into Lucifero nor can he damage Lucifero as much as Asta did.

It is heavily implied that Asta can go through Luci despite both Yami and Lucifero being superior at that moment. Asta should have durability negation against devils.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Disagree, Asta had to actively use his Demon-Destroyer Sword to negate their elemental intangibility in order to make them tangible to cut them

Sigh, Plan B

Ahem...

Asta is capable of negating magic that lacks substance.

He is also capable of undoing or partially undoing magical fusions

As shown here

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The rest of this is fine, though Lucifero's Body Control is already on his profile. I added that myself.

Thank you Thank you,

Also, The information of Arcane stage you, or someone, gave on their profiles is incorrect. Please let us review it as it is misleading people.

It also irks me

I have made an in-depth explanation of it I'd like you to consider. I typed it out in another thread I can copy and paste here if that's fine.

 

[Majinere566]

Didn't read the whole thing but happy late birthday

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Thank You Thank You

 

[CloverDragon03]

Sigh, Plan B

Ahem...

Asta is capable of negating magic that lacks substance.

He is also capable of undoing or partially undoing magical fusions

As shown here

This makes more sense. Something like:

Non-Physical Interaction (Erased Nacht's magic, which is stated to lack physical substance)

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Finally... I'm fine with that

 

[Gumball_Ushiromiya]

So what's the verdict
Is everybody in agreement with everything mentioned in this thread?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It sure seems like it. Everything has been ironed out.

 

[Maxeez]

Do we need some staff input then ?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Just to Reiterate

Asta: Limited Durability Negation (Ignores conventional durability against magical beings and Devils) & Non-physical interaction (Erased Nacht's magic, which is stated to lack physical substance) Passive power nullification in black mode (Capable of erasing magic in his immediate surrounding) higher with Devil Union (Asta's presence erases mana zone and magic in the surrounding areas)

Note: Due to Asta's improved passive power nullification in Devil Union mode, he is ineffective in a team with other mages as any magical advantages offered by a mage would not work on him. As shown with Natch and Yami's Kid's playground. However, he seems to work well with others in Black mode.

Yuno: Power nullification with Star magic (capable of nullifying, within a short radius, Lucifero's presence, which exerts intense gravitational pressure on everything in his surroundings)

Yami: Stealth and Cloning with Kids playground ( with Unite Mode Canis Natch, Yami creates a dark environment where he and his allies travel within the darkness concealing their presence allowing them to attack from several angles in the air and ground. This spell simultaneously creates shadow clones of those within the darkness to attack the enemy.)

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Do we need some staff input then ?

Staff has given input. Its just to finalize things now

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Just to Reiterate

Asta: Limited Durability Negation (Ignores conventional durability against magical beings and Devils) & Non-physical interaction (Erased Nacht's magic, which is stated to lack physical substance) Passive power nullification in black mode (Capable of erasing magic in his immediate surrounding) higher with Devil Union (Asta's presence erases mana zone and magic in the surrounding areas)

Note: Due to Asta's improved passive power nullification in Devil Union mode, he is ineffective in a team with other mages as any magical advantages offered by a mage would not work on him. As shown with Natch and Yami's Kid's playground. However, he seems to work well with others in Black mode.

Yuno: Power nullification with Star magic (capable of nullifying, within a short radius, Lucifero's presence, which exerts intense gravitational pressure on everything in his surroundings)

Yami: Stealth and Cloning with Kids playground ( with Unite Mode Canis Natch, Yami creates a dark environment where he and his allies travel within the darkness concealing their presence allowing them to attack from several angles in the air and ground. This spell simultaneously creates shadow clones of those within the darkness to attack the enemy.)

@Epsilon_R @CloverDragon03 Hi

Can you guys apply the changes? or do you have any thoughts on how to move forward from here or on anything done here?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’ve mentioned before that the limited Durability Negation doesn’t work for devils. For beings made of magic, yeah that makes sense because Asta would just erase the magic that comprises their being, but devils are a different story

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’ve mentioned before that the limited Durability Negation doesn’t work for devils. For beings made of magic, yeah that makes sense because Asta would just erase the magic that comprises their being, but devils are a different story

You didn't address the argument I made the other time.

I'm guessing you missed it, here it is.

Why Yuno? Why didn't you compare to this amped Yami who was capable of blocking a punch from Lucifero? Same punch that sends Asta flying any day. But if you compare the damages done to Luci by both of them, Yami deals the least damage of the two right? but we know he is superior to asta at that point in time yes? but it's Asta Lucifero fears more right? It is heavily implied that any one of those antimagic slashes will go through Lucifero like it's nothing effectively leaving him in a critical state or even killing him. Lucifero considers Asta the most dangerous and the easiest to kill. He sees Yami as the second most dangerous because dark magic could kill him too only if Yami gets strong enough to get through his durability and to his devil heart. Yami is superior to Asta and he is unable to strike fear into Lucifero nor can he damage Lucifero as much as Asta did.

It is heavily implied that Asta can go through Luci despite both Yami and Lucifero being superior at that moment. Asta should have durability negation against devils.

This argument was for your reason behind why Asta shouldn't have this.

Basically, an amped Yami with his blade of Mistleteinn is superior to Asta but Asta is still more dangerous than Yami who is a stronger arcane.

It is a misconception that Antimagic is Arcane, because Anti Magic is not magic. Lolo just needed a way to classify Antimagic.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

ALSO, WE NEED TO NUKE OUR EXISTING EXPLANATION ON ARCANE MAGIC, IT SUCKS!!

Arcane magic isnt related to forbidden magic at all!

I have made a draft on this i would like you to read. @Epsilon_R liked it when i first typed it out.

Arcane stage is a stage where mages can use inexplicable and irregular magic that has the potential to defeat a devil. Irregular magic are types of magic that are created due to losing connection and protection from natural magic, which is why some magic types like steel magic, chain magic and even spatial magic are not natural or considered not to be. Some of these irregular magic types have the ability to change the specific law(s) of nature. These irregulars are arcane stage. Arcane stage is separate from the magic power stages as weaker mages can also be arcane stage mages although their magic can still be passively nullified and these mages can be overwhelmed with sheer magic power alone. This is why arcane stage mages like Nero, Vanessa, and Grey are still weak against high-ranking and supreme devils and need to amp their magic power or stamina somehow to use their arcane abilities more efficiently against these devils. Examples of arcane stage mages apart from those I've mentioned earlier include Yami, Vengeance, Asta, and Julius Novachrono.

Forbidden magic are forms of magic that enhance magic power with negative mana with the risk of being corrupted. If a lot of negative mana is used you will become a massive demon made up of it or if you use some of it the situation is less severe similar to Nero's situation. The less severe drawbacks can be offset by those loved by mana such as Yuno and Litch but they suffer if they use tremendous amounts of it. Negative mana is somewhat effective against devils as having such mana in sufficient amounts simply resists devil possession. However, It cant be used to destroy a devil's heart but it can be used to at least to temporarily compete with one before suffering the consequences of its use or if one is a weak arcane mage that person can enhance their magic power with it to defeat a devil.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You didn't address the argument I made the other time.

I'm guessing you missed it, here it is.


This argument was for your reason behind why Asta shouldn't have this.

Basically, an amped Yami with his blade of Mistleteinn is superior to Asta but Asta is still more dangerous than Yami who is a stronger arcane.

It is a misconception that Antimagic is Arcane, because Anti Magic is not magic. Lolo just needed a way to classify Antimagic.

The problem is that against Full Power Lucifero, it was shown that Yami was completely unable to cut Lucifero, yet he was still deemed (along with Asta) as someone that Yuno and Nacht should bet on to take him down.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

it was shown that Yami was completely unable to cut Lucifero, yet he was still deemed (along with Asta) as someone that Yuno and Nacht should bet on to take him down.

This is because of Yami's potential. Yami's power has been swelling ever since his body was modified. Not to mention he has more power infused within his sword from Vengeance. Yuno and Nacht are gambling on Yami to be able to get through his durability and through Lucifero's heart because of this.



Yami can use Dimension slash to get past Lucifero's durability and then to his heart, so Yuno and Nacht aren't exactly wrong still.