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BLACK CLOVER CRT: EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED

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CloverDragon03 said:
It's a statement of what Salamander is capable of, so I don't see the argument here.

Also, being honest, I think we're a bit too harsh on world-destroying statements. Mitch mentioned All For One, but the reason he wouldn't qualify is because in context, he's planning to rule over the world rather than destroy it. Lucifero is a different ballpark, so I really don't think it's comparable, and this really seems like the authorial intent is for Lucifero to be a world destroyer
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I'm not being harsh...

We didn't consider those "World-Ending" statements valid as it's own before and we shouldn't now... I mean I'm guilty of using loose statements like these to support a meta, but they are in fact loose and don't hold much weight... Authorial intent for Lucifero to be a planet level being would be better for him to perform a feat that's actually well... Planet level... Could have been anything, like the entire planet suffering from his gravity, but we don't get any of that, so all these statements chalk up to is hype statements for Lucifero being really strong, that's about it. Countless verses have these kinds of statements, I was just using AFO as a good example, but we don't just hand out Planet level to someone with a "World-Destroying" statement

"The sigh of the firedrake heats 1000 ri, one swing of its talons also dries the ocean!!"

Also this can be interepreted as hyperbole. For one thing, the feat says that Salamander can heat 1000 ri, not that it can vaporize 1000 ri of water, that has no given volume, it just means that you can feel Salamander's heat even at 1000 ri away. And "One swing of its talons also dries the ocean!!" is also questionable as it seems VERY flowery. We've never seen Fana interact with a body of water as large as the Artic Ocean. Does BC have any of it's own known Oceans? Maybe the statement means an Ocean smaller than one IRL. And even more than that, by drying the Ocean, does it mean the entirety of one? Or does it mean only a section of an Ocean? Is it hyping up Salamander by saying it can dry an Ocean only in regards to part of one?

Just none of this is solid to me. I can't in good conscious upgrade this verse all the way to 5-B off of a calc I don't think is solid, statements I don't think are solid, a meta I don't think is solid, and a verse that's best in-manga feat, statement or otherwise, is Low 6-B

So I consider the Salamander feat both hyperbole and an outlier. I consider the moon creation laughably wrong. And I don't think any of the Lucifero statements help the OP's argument at all. So maybe I will lose out in the votes and it will be applied, but as it stands, this CRT does not have my agreement or support with it. If any time soon, the Manga drops a solid Tier 5 statement or feat, then I would feel much more confident in this meta being accurate, but until then, I've said my peace and will leave the CRT
 
chosen said:
Yeah the 28 pettaton end is What i am talking about
Unless i misread it 1000 ri is from where 28 pettaton comes from
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Oh that comes from using 1000 ri wide ocean with minimum ocean depth, both low ends are accepted so either is fine to me, I have 0 preference over 11 or 28 peta if they get used
 
I already said this to OP but he is not answering my question: how do we know that it's size is the same as the real one? When we don't even know if she fully understand how big the moon is in close distance? And this is an important question cause there is so many proofs that suggest, that when it comes to sizes it depends on how big she visually imagine it to be, e.g: The cat, thrones, candies, beach balls, bed, fruits, snakes, etcetera, them sizes are out of the ordinary which led me to believe that she only re-create its very nature and not the size, cause that depends on how big she imagine it.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
I'm not being harsh...

We didn't consider those "World-Ending" statements valid as it's own before and we shouldn't now... I mean I'm guilty of using loose statements like these to support a meta, but they are in fact loose and don't hold much weight... Authorial intent for Lucifero to be a planet level being would be better for him to perform a feat that's actually well... Planet level... Could have been anything, like the entire planet suffering from his gravity, but we don't get any of that, so all these statements chalk up to is hype statements for Lucifero being really strong, that's about it. Countless verses have these kinds of statements, I was just using AFO as a good example, but we don't just hand out Planet level to someone with a "World-Destroying" statement

"The sigh of the firedrake heats 1000 ri, one swing of its talons also dries the ocean!!"

Also this can be interepreted as hyperbole. For one thing, the feat says that Salamander can heat 1000 ri, not that it can vaporize 1000 ri of water, that has no given volume, it just means that you can feel Salamander's heat even at 1000 ri away. And "One swing of its talons also dries the ocean!!" is also questionable as it seems VERY flowery. We've never seen Fana interact with a body of water as large as the Artic Ocean. Does BC have any of it's own known Oceans? Maybe the statement means an Ocean smaller than one IRL. And even more than that, by drying the Ocean, does it mean the entirety of one? Or does it mean only a section of an Ocean? Is it hyping up Salamander by saying it can dry an Ocean only in regards to part of one?

Just none of this is solid to me. I can't in good conscious upgrade this verse all the way to 5-B off of a calc I don't think is solid, statements I don't think are solid, a meta I don't think is solid, and a verse that's best in-manga feat, statement or otherwise, is Low 6-B

So I consider the Salamander feat both hyperbole and an outlier. I consider the moon creation laughably wrong. And I don't think any of the Lucifero statements help the OP's argument at all. So maybe I will lose out in the votes and it will be applied, but as it stands, this CRT does not have my agreement or support with it. If any time soon, the Manga drops a solid Tier 5 statement or feat, then I would feel much more confident in this meta being accurate
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Literally anything can be interpreted as hyperbole. But for it to be considered hyperbole, you need to provide evidence to support that. These are all possible alternatives. Arguing from possibility doesn't get you anywhere, though. Scaling is based on probability and the preponderance of the evidence. Average Ocean is used. Other verses have feats where planets, stars, etc. are done off-screen but are used in scaling. They typically use an average size of said body. This follows the same logic and uses an ocean of average sized. Arguing that it instead dried a part of the ocean is, again, arguing from possibility. And isn't in congruence with what the statement actually says. If someone was said to have destroyed a planet, it's typically assumed that they actually destroyed it instead of a small part of it.
 
BlackAstaSenpai said:
Literally anything can be interpreted as hyperbole. But for it to be considered hyperbole, you need to provide evidence to support that. These are all possible alternatives. Arguing from possibility doesn't get you anywhere, though. Scaling is based on probability and the preponderance of the evidence. Average Ocean is used. Other verses have feats where planets, stars, etc. are done off-screen but are used in scaling. They typically use an average size of said body. This follows the same logic and uses an ocean of average sized. Arguing that it instead dried a part of the ocean is, again, arguing from possibility. And isn't in congruence with what the statement actually says. If someone was said to have destroyed a planet, it's typically assumed that they actually destroyed it instead of a small part of it.
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Isn't the lack of supporting feats around High 6-A indicative of hyperbole?
 
Cyberblader90 said:
i dont see why its hyperbole
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Well, by feats this Salamander is apparently in the High 7-A / 6-C range. And the statement comes out to High 6-A.... That's a pretty big disparity between on-screen appearance and databook lore.
 
Damage3245 said:
Well, by feats this Salamander is apparently in the High 7-A / 6-C range. And the statement comes out to High 6-A.... That's a pretty big disparity between on-screen appearance and databook lore.
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The salamander not showing destructive feats is moot because the OP already says the Forest was protected by nature's mana and magic from a character even stronger than Fana.
 
Damage3245 said:
Well, by feats this Salamander is apparently in the High 7-A / 6-C range. And the statement comes out to High 6-A.... That's a pretty big disparity between on-screen appearance and databook lore.
Click to expand...

Data book is regarded as volume 16.5 written by Tabata himself. The feats you’re showing us are from an underdeveloped Salamander that could destroy a forest under heavy protection as explained in the OP.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
It's a statement of what Salamander is capable of, so I don't see the argument here
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I literally debated this topic to you before and you rejected it, so why accept it now? Not to mention the salamander claw I'm proposing back then are just low 6B and you are using 3245 arguments to debunked it
 
Worthless said:
I literally debated this topic to you before and you rejected it, so why accept it now? Not to mention the salamander claw I'm proposing back then are just low 6B and you are using 3245 arguments to debunked it
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People can and are allowed to change their positions on certain things over a period of time, which is what Clover did. Previously he disagreed with using the Salamander calc for x reasons, but now after multiple days of debating in discord, more feats which support the High 6-A calc being brought to light and the High 6-A calc itself being accepted mathematically by multiple different calc members, he decided that he agrees more with using the calc than disagrees with using the calc.

Simple as.
 
Worthless said:
I literally debated this topic to you before and you rejected it, so why accept it now? Not to mention the salamander claw I'm proposing back then are just low 6B and you are using 3245 arguments to debunked it
Click to expand...
People can change their minds, you know that right?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
1) The fact that the Salamander is stated to be able to evaporate oceans and is far weaker than Reve and Lucifero provides narrative support for their feats/statements being interpreted as Moon/Planetary.
Click to expand...
Having High 6-A feats feats is not grounds for wacky statements becoming 5-B, none of those statements point to planetary destruction, and that is simple.
Besides I am not a calc guru but what timeframe was used for the ocean vapourization?
Arc7Kuroi said:
2) There are numerous instances where we take celestial satellites that look like the moon and treat it like the moon.
Click to expand...
Except we can clearly see this ones are smaller, like literally smaller
 
Eseseso said:
Wouldn't Reve be 2x baseline 5-C for creating 2 moons?
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the creation of all of those objects were from Dorothy and Reve clashing, Reve would just be baseline 5-C if we assume Dorothy and Reve created a moon each
Eseseso said:
Also, how is Lucifero 6000x Reve's power, and which form of his would scale to 6000x her power (since he has multiple forms)?
Click to expand...
Half-Manifested Lucifero at Full Power is scaled to Complete Manifestation Megicula who is 3x stronger than the Lilith-Naamah fusion (Incomplete Megicula, which was 1/3 of her true power, was comparable to the Llith-Naamah fusion) which would make Lucifero 3000x stronger than the High 6-C+ characters (e.g. Spade Kingdom Raid Arc Magna) and Complete Lucifero would be 2x stronger than Half Lucifero which put Complete Lucifero at 6-A+ (3.9 Petatons: 6000x stronger than the High 6-C+ characters) and Reve is currently 6-C+ (53 Gigatons) which would actually make Complete Lucifero 73584.9x stronger than Reve
 
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Deceived3596 said:
火竜の吐息は千里を焼き鉤爪の一振りは大海をも干す!!

"The sigh of the firedrake heats 1000 ri, one swing of its talons also dries the ocean!!"

The statement heavily implies Salamander would instantly dry up an ocean with a strike of his talon, which is why Arc assumed an instant time-frame.
Click to expand...
This sounds like an Hype text, especially the fact that none of this happened or something remotely close happened in the manga or anime.
Again after this country busters that would stomp the salamander were seen to be very stronk.

Note: I disagreed, why is my vote not counted or any one else who disagreed votes?
 
Pain_to12 said:
This sounds like an Hype text, especially the fact that none of this happened or something remotely close happened in the manga or anime.
Again after this country busters that would stomp the salamander were seen to be very stronk.

Note: I disagreed, why is my vote not counted or any one else who disagreed votes?
Click to expand...
"This sounds like a hype text," not an argument.

The "Counry Buster" Demon Licht is far above country. Since Lumiere said even if he blocked the attack it would destroy Clover, that means a small portion of his power was country. ANd the narrator said Demon Licht nearly wiped out humanity, but Lumiere saved humankind. This means that Demon Licht was going to do far more than just destroy the kingdom. This also means he needed to destroy the magically-reinforced ocean to get to the people that live in the seabed temple.
 
Pain_to12 said:
This sounds like an Hype text, especially the fact that none of this happened or something remotely close happened in the manga or anime.
Again after this country busters that would stomp the salamander were seen to be very stronk.

Note: I disagreed, why is my vote not counted or any one else who disagreed votes?
Click to expand...
Does it not seems a bit detailed to not be hype? It's giving us a feat that would happen if it was to do so but obviously vaporizing an entire ocean isn't something that would happen in the story and ofc other's wouldnt have performed such a feat either if it just wasn't optimal in the series i.e the devil who was gonna destroy the kingdom didn't happen but its stated and it also follows that the devil would be that big of a thread.

I do agree that others not doing remotely the same is a bit odd but not out of the ordinary for one character to perform a massive feat compared to the other one's.
 
BlackAstaSenpai said:
"This sounds like a hype text," not an argument.

The "Counry Buster" Demon Licht is far above country. Since Lumiere said even if he blocked the attack it would destroy Clover, that means a small portion of his power was country. ANd the narrator said Demon Licht nearly wiped out humanity, but Lumiere saved humankind. This means that Demon Licht was going to do far more than just destroy the kingdom. This also means he needed to destroy the magically-reinforced ocean to get to the people that live in the seabed temple.
Click to expand...
Not trynna be mean but did You take the argument from broku?
It seems weirdly similar to his
 
Pain_to12 said:
This sounds like an Hype text, especially the fact that none of this happened or something remotely close happened in the manga or anime.
Again after this country busters that would stomp the salamander were seen to be very stronk
Click to expand...
You have to provide actual valid contentions on why you believe it's most likely hype text, the fact this feat or statement wasn't shown in the manga isn't a counter to it being true, statements are valid just like feats, until you can find an actual valid contradiction with it you can't claim it it's unusable. Also things remotely close to it do happen, like Dorthy creating moons within her dimension.

You're trying to cap their AP with their DC, which isn't correct since destructive capability isn't an inherent limiter to one's AP, someone with massively more AP can have massively lower DC. This could easily be the case, you have to prove why this would be a cap for their AP.
 
BlackAstaSenpai said:
"This sounds like a hype text," not an argument.

The "Counry Buster" Demon Licht is far above country. Since Lumiere said even if he blocked the attack it would destroy Clover, that means a small portion of his power was country. ANd the narrator said Demon Licht nearly wiped out humanity, but Lumiere saved humankind. This means that Demon Licht was going to do far more than just destroy the kingdom. This also means he needed to destroy the magically-reinforced ocean to get to the people that live in the seabed temple.
Click to expand...

Technically the narrator said "decimate humanity", not completely kill off humanity, right?
 
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