Bill Cipher Precognition Buff

[ShionAH]

Acasuality 4 Stuff​

• Bill has

• • Acausality (Types 1 and 4)
    • Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
• Yet Bill is able to use both his Causality and Precognition haxes on himself which would give him Acasuality 4 Negation

 

[StrymULTRA]

• Yet Bill is able to use both his Causality and Precognition haxes on himself which would give him Layers and Acasuality 4 Negation

Ok

Though I'd remove that "outside time scan" in the Nightmare realm, I am not saying it isn't, but it just is a reference to Bill not aging under time.

Since they are capable of building a machine that can shake an entire 2-A structure with its raw power and the fact that Stanford made a weapon that could kill Bill (A 2-A being) they should gain a Supergenius Rating

No, Supergenius is about stuff that straight up reality warps, killing a Tier 2 is not enough.

 

[ShionAH]

No, Supergenius is about stuff that straight up reality warps, killing a Tier 2 is not enough.

If your technology is higher than 3-A then you can get Supergenius though

 

[StrymULTRA]

If your technology is higher than 3-A then you can get Supergenius though

That from where does it come from? This is genuinely the 1st time I hear about it.

Take note that for a Supergenius rating to be given based on technological prowess, the character in question should be able to essentially warp reality as they wish on an at least universal (3-A) scale with their inventions, or even use them to overpower tier 1 entities for higher cases. Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well. Basically there should be a very extreme amount of versatility combined with a high or extremely high degree of scale.

Killing a Tier 2 being =/= Warping reality on a Tier 2 scale.

 

[ShionAH]

That from where does it come from? This is genuinely the 1st time I hear about it.

Anos has it because of creating his Low 2-C weapon

Rimuru has it because of nullifying a Tier 2 system

He has it for understanding his cosmology that is Tier 2

Even anaylsing a 2-A cosmology is Supergenius feat

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anos has it because of creating his Low 2-C weapon

A weapon with a fuckload of hax that are well beyond just reality warping.

Rimuru has it because of nullifying a Tier 2 system

A Tier 2 system that actually recreated the world.

He has it for understanding his cosmology that is Tier 2

That profile is genuinely shit and needs a rework. Like it's as bad as PMMM profiles about being outdated.

 

[ShionAH]

A weapon with a fuckload of hax that are well beyond just reality warping.

Haxes only give Extraordinary Genius unless they can be used on Tier 1 scale according to the Genius rating

A Tier 2 system that actually recreated the world.

So? It still only a Tier 2 AP feat. Which is leagues below Portals 2-A feat

 

[StrymULTRA]

Haxes only give Extraordinary Genius unless they can be used on Tier 1 scale according to the Genius rating

Are you now trolling? SuperGenius requires 3-A or above Reality Warping, which is technology. And Venuzdonoa has that: It can reform the order of the world and rewrite concepts and laws, including Jerga[3], who is the concept of hatred for demons that will still exist even if this hate ceases to exist in the world

So? It still only a Tier 2 AP feat. Which is leagues below Portals 2-A feat

AP feat done with reality warping, what else do you expect from recreating cosmology?

 

[ShionAH]

Are you now trolling? SuperGenius requires 3-A or above Reality Warping, which is technology. And Venuzdonoa has that: It can reform the order of the world and rewrite concepts and laws, including Jerga[3], who is the concept of hatred for demons that will still exist even if this hate ceases to exist in the world

AP feat done with reality warping, what else do you expect from recreating cosmology?

Okay whatever, I will remove the Intelligence Ig

 

[Chariot190]

Causality and Precognition haxes on himself

Yeah, on himself

He has it for understanding his cosmology that is Tier 2

Also that's wrong, it's actually Low 1-C, maybe 1-C? (JJ specifically, canon JoJo is 2-A, comp JoJo is like 1-B due to Rohan novels tho), and also not really why he should have it to begin with
Kars profile is DOGSHIT btw, like I think he should have it but sure as **** not for the justification given

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, on himself

I mean, sure, but it means he should be able to precogn another Type 4 Acasual like himself as well. It's not even him, more like alternate versions.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh wait, Shion did not even use the right scan.

Here:

 

[Chariot190]

I mean tbf, I don't even like the way it's worded. Mostly because I see this leading to dudes saying Bill can precog or whatever any Type 4, which obviously is dumb. Type 4 is simply having ****** up causality, the mechanics behind why it's ****** can vary greatly. If we limit it to only Types 4 similar to him ig I could be neutral leaning toward agree.
also, is it established in context that precog and stuff wouldnt work on him normally?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean tbf, I don't even like the way it's worded. Mostly because I see this leading to dudes saying Bill can precog or whatever any Type 4, which obviously is dumb. Type 4 is simply having ****** up causality, the mechanics behind why it's ****** can vary greatly. If we limit it to only Types 4 similar to him ig I could be neutral leaning toward agree.

That's a problem with any hax involving Type 4 Acausality. We just assume that hax that bypasses Type 4 acausality will work on "baseline" ones, then higher degrees of it won't be affected.

It's how it works here iirc.

 

[Chariot190]

Then unfortunately I'll have to disagree. That's just wanking for the sake of it even though we clarify that with any other sort of hax based on mechanics, and we really have no reason to assume Bill's hax is all-encompassing instead of just enabling it because that's how he himself works.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's how the wiki works with that though.

Sorry but your personal beliefs do not override on how hax works.

 

[ShionAH]

Aca 4 is gained by Nature

 

[Chariot190]

That's how the wiki works with that though.

Sorry but your personal beliefs do not override on how hax works.

It isn't even though? Where's the rule that says as much?
In fact from what I've seen we don't treat any hax like that and differ between mechanics, so much so that we even sometimes prefix it with "unconventional", enabling i to often bypass res, and vice versa.

I'd like to see a rule that says that's how we treat all aca 4 as the same with no room otherwise.
and the **** do you mean "how hax works", this addition is grasping as it is let alone touching on entirely arbitrary standards that have no real rules

Aca 4 is gained by Nature

Well aware, that's the issue. The "why" some have it could be completely different.
Type 4 is just an umbrella term, why would someone whose Type 4 is completely different from Bill's, with completely different reasons as to why, not even remotely the same, work for him? It wouldn't, he'd need feats like anyone else. Type 4 is just having non-standard causality, by no means is all differing standards interchangeable.

It's like saying red and blue are both colors, so someone who can manipulate the color red only, can manipulate blue too. That shit's just dumb. Or for actual practices, the difference between mind manip, simply resisting mind manip doesn't mean you can res all types, say you res Poison Ivy's bio mind manip, that's cool, but that's biological and wouldn't stop say Prof X from mindfucking you and vice versa.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It isn't even though? Where's the rule that says as much?
In fact from what I've seen we don't treat any hax like that and differ between mechanics, so much so that we even sometimes prefix it with "unconventional", enabling i to often bypass res, and vice versa.

It's more a convention. Here we assume that a character that can affect a random Aca 4 can affect all the rest, it was always like this in vs threads.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm asking to see an actual rule and standard, I saw this precisely because I've seen hax, even layered functions like this. Most commonly with hax in cases where like, yeah a dude could have 1000+ mind mental layers res, but that doesn't mean shit if the mind in question is fundamentally different and is done by say, KLK wires or spores.
We do often treat abilities, hax, and more as sometimes not working, simply based on fundamental aspects or the mechanisms behind them being too widely different.

I see no reason why Type 4, something that inherently is just "as long as they don't adhere to normal causality they get this" (which means, of course, there are numerous specifics involved that can differ). To give an example, imagine if someone had Type 4 simply because for them, the effect happens before the cause, that's it, nothing major really but that's still having ****** up causality and thus Type 4 even if bad. And then some dude precogs him.

Why would you wank that dude's precog to working on completely different Type 4's? Like do you think his ass could precog Bill now because of that? **** no, bro don't got feats even remotely close to that, yet he still precog'd a Type 4. Same here.


I just want to index it accurately is all. Hence why I want to see an actual rule on this if true.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Rimuru has it because of nullifying a Tier 2 system

Chapter 192
Chapter 242
Chapter 248
Rimuru can rewrite the laws that control the fate, causality, space-time continuums, the cycle of reincarnation of the cosmology, which includes several parallel universes and dimensions and can recreate the nihility energy/turn null/nihility collapse that creates the entire cosmology and precedes all that exists in the verse, devoid of all essential elements.

So it's much more comprehensive than you think, but I have to be honest that at some point I have to rewrite the description and add scans.

 

[ShionAH]

Seems like Chariot just disagrees with Acasuality 4 Negation even existing in the wiki rather than Bill having it specifically

 

[StrymULTRA]

Seems like Chariot just disagrees with Acasuality 4 Negation even existing in the wiki rather than Bill having it specifically

Yeah, I just ignore him on that as it's a convention on the wikia, if a character affects a Type 4 acausal, then they can do that with any baseline Type 4. It always worked like this, by his logic Type 4 Acausality Negation can't exist on this wiki outside of suggs-like characters.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, I just ignore him on that as it's a convention on the wikia, if a character affects a Type 4 acausal, then they can do that with any baseline Type 4. It always worked like this, by his logic Type 4 Acausality Negation can't exist on this wiki outside of suggs-like characters.

Show rule my dude, hell show where it was accepted as a convention? We don't treat anything else like this yet suddenly this fine? Even his, if anything, has the most reasons for not adhering to your mentality than any other ability on the wiki?

This isn't even acausality negation, it's just "yeah his precog works on himself", no explanation given. We don't extrapolate.

As it stands, all this leads to is admitted wank.

Seems like Chariot just disagrees with Acasuality 4 Negation even existing in the wiki rather than Bill having it specifically

No? It's fine for things it's shown to work on, like anything else.

Actually index shit properly, that's what the wiki is for, the unga bunga match pissing contests are the side thing, not what we actually do.

 

[ShionAH]

This isn't even acausality negation, it's just "yeah his precog works on himself", no explanation given. We don't extrapolate.

His precog works on himself

And he has Acasuality 4 which is supposed to protect him from it

Yet his Precog negates it

Character A resists Hax B

Character A uses Hax B on himself

Hax B works = Hax B is layered/Negated his Resistance

 

[Chariot190]

His precog works on himself

And he has Acasuality 4 which is supposed to protect him from it

Yet his Precog negates it

Character A resists Hax B

Character A uses Hax B on himself

Hax B works = Hax B is layered/Negated his Resistance

That isn't even how we treat other haxes, see the mind hax example.

You could have 1000 layers of mind hax res, but if it's all like mental type, something as simply as Ragyo's wires from KLK is gonna work. Layered hax is fine and all, but you still need to actually factor in how shit works. You aren't, all for the sake of wanking.

That's it, I don't disagree with him having it, as long as it's clarified how it functions and what it works so we don't have dudes wanking it.

 

[ShionAH]

That isn't even how we treat other haxes, see the mind hax example.

You could have 1000 layers of mind hax res, but if it's all like mental type, something as simply as Ragyo's wires from KLK is gonna work. Layered hax is fine and all, but you still need to actually factor in how shit works. You aren't, all for the sake of wanking.

That's it, I don't disagree with him having it, as long as it's clarified how it functions and what it works so we don't have dudes wanking it.

So what kind of clarification do you want on the profile may I ask?

 

[Chariot190]

Just like, "It works on this and like this", just index it accurately so it's clear in what it did

 

[StrymULTRA]

We don't treat anything else like this yet suddenly this fine?

Yep.

As it stands, all this leads to is admitted wank.

Cope.

 

[Chariot190]

Yep

Sorry but your personal beliefs do not override on how hax works. I want to see the rule.

Cope.

Literally who? Where's the rule.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sorry but your personal beliefs do not override on how hax works. I want to see the rule.

The rule is how it works on vs threads. Won't stop me from arguing it in vs matchups with Bill, or other characters.

Literally who? Where's the rule.

Acausality Type 4 can indeed cover other shit like CM level hax or Plot Hax, but these are just additional stuff. By default they always give a resistance to precognition, fate and causality hax, because it's the bare minimum, the source of it does not matter if the effects on fights are the same.

So you're overthinking, and I am wasting time.

 

[Chariot190]

The rule is how it works on vs threads. Won't stop me from arguing it in vs matchups with Bill, or other characters.

Where's the rule? Show.
also why admit to wanking dude

Acausality Type 4 can indeed cover other shit like CM level hax or Plot Hax, but these are just additional stuff. By default they always give a resistance to precognition, fate and causality hax, because it's the bare minimum, the source of it does not matter if the effects on fights are the same.

Correct, they can. Not always, but usually.

And what? Where's the rule that says that's ALWAYS the case? Like usually the reason why they get Type 4 would entail that so 99% of the time that shit won't yeah, but as said, someone could just have Type 4 via something as mundane as the cause and effect is simply swapped for them, precog would still work on them there.
You're taking what is usually the case to be the hard standard when we don't have any such actual standard.

So you're overthinking, and I am wasting time.

More like the only person here who wants to actually do what the wiki is for and index things properly

 

[StrymULTRA]

I am talking to a brick at this point, calling staff, I am not repeating my points.

 

[Chariot190]

You don't have a point tho, you're just saying you want it listed as all-encompassing neg and that you're going use it as such in matches because of a"rule" that doesn't exist that magically treats all Type 4's as being the same, even if they're fundamentally and mechanically different
The only way you'd have a point is if it WAS a rule, which it isn't.

Like yeah i's fine if Bill faces someone with the Type 4 that works kinda like his, that's obviously fine but as with everything.

I'm honestly baffled you'd even out yourself by saying

The rule is how it works on vs threads. Won't stop me from arguing it in vs matchups with Bill, or other characters.

This right here is why I'm even pushing for it to be properly explained to avoid massive extrapolation in matches, you proved my doubts true.
And when no rule exists, and you basically admit to just wanting a funny meme power for matches...

Index it as it is, no more, no less, and then don't turn around to wank it on matches like how hard is that?

 

[Edutyn]

Even anaylsing a 2-A cosmology is Supergenius feat

I think a better example would be Kusuke.

Created a time machine.
Created a dimensional teleport device
Created a parallel universe

 

[StrymULTRA]

My problem here is that Bill's Type 4 is out of existing outside the multiverse as a natural inhabitant of the Nightmare Realm, which is essentially outside the multiverse bewteen all the universes, and because of this it lacks physics, laws and causality (and all of those are explicit in-verse if you see the justification).

This right here is why I'm even pushing for it to be properly explained to avoid massive extrapolation in matches, you proved my doubts true.
And when no rule exists, and you basically admit to just wanting a funny meme power for matches...

Just because you don't like how the vs threads work it does not mean it's untrue plus I think you'd argue what I am saying if Bill is a Jojo character.

Created a parallel universe

If this isn't Reality Warping idk wtf it is

 

[Chariot190]

My problem here is that Bill's Type 4 is out of existing outside the multiverse as a natural inhabitant of the Nightmare Realm, which is essentially outside the multiverse bewteen all the universes, and because of this it lacks physics, laws and causality (and all of those are explicit in-verse if you see the justification).

Ok? Just describe it as it is, use it as it is, I'm not saying this wouldn't be useful against most anyway, just that most isn't all, and treating it as such is dumb, wrong and wank.

Just because you don't like how the vs threads work it does not mean it's untrue plus I think you'd argue what I am saying if Bill is a Jojo character.

Sorry but your personal beliefs do not override on how hax works. I want to see the rule.

 

[Thelastmlg]

while i agree with precog buff, i don't see acausality negation there, bill is saying that he is going to change the laws of causality, but we don't assume characters doing that kind of thing are affecting themselves without evidence, especially those with acausality as they have even less reason to be assumed, also that would be potency, not negation, i think, honestly i'm not sure anymore

and yeah acausality type 4 and 5 in this wiki are pretty dumb with how they are handled

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok? Just describe it as it is, use it as it is, I'm not saying this wouldn't be useful against most anyway, just that most isn't all, and treating it as such is dumb, wrong and wank.

Almost any Acasual 4 is either like Bill or has a worse version of his acausality lmfao. Now you're just overthinking.

and yeah acausality type 4 and 5 in this wiki are pretty dumb with how they are handled

Ok? You can make a CRT about it though.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Ok? You can make a CRT about it though.

thinking something is dumb =/= threatning to do anything about it, if i wanna comment about it after answering the thread properly, i will