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You know i had to bait with the title, no, this isn't some super massive upgrade which makes all pokemon 6-A, but it is damn good for starter.

The feat
The feat i will provide you with is this
Piloswine destroys Ecruteak city with an earthquake
the feat is Piloswine violently shaking Ecruteak city and destroying it completely in one move.
The reasons behind the magnitude and distance i used is already in the blog and here's evidence of Piloswine being the one who actually did it:
Page_07-me.jpg


So piloswine was the one who made the earthquake.

The piloswine kept up with Politoad for a bit before getting tricked and beaten, it was somewhat bigger than usual and it was a final evo in gen 2 and thus the Piloswine feat should scale only to final evolutions.
Thus all final evos will scale to High 7-A (2.9 gigatons)

But Arceus, the feat is an outlier! we have no supporting evidence of any other feats of that level!

Well i could argue about pokemon having tons of 7-A feats but i ain't gonna

and i will pull out my second card

Feat 2: Tyranitar yoinks a mountain with an earthquake
Not only a feat that is consistent with the general statements about Tyranitars, but also with the feat i provided above
Tyranitar causes an earthquake that wipes out a great mountain

this one comes out at 3.1 gigatons or High 7-A+ (i think)
and is only 165 megatons away from the Piloswine feat which makes it consistent.

What would this mean for pokemon?

Time to scale
let's begin with who scales and how.

Option 1: everyone scales to 3.1gt
Option 2: Normal final evos scale to 2.9gt and Pseudo-legendaries scale to 3.1

Option 1 scaling:

Final evos: 3.1gt High 7-A
Mega evos: >6.2gt 6-C
Gigantamax: >15.5gt 6-C
Marrowak with the bone: 6.2gt 6-C

The scaling for G-max pokemon was accepted on this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/pokemon-gigantamax-revision.123300/#post-4090742
there was also a slightly different version accepted before already, this just added +1x

Option 2 scaling:
The main issue with the scaling is deciding who scales to pseudo-legendary pokemon.
Anyways here it is:

Final evos: 2.9gt High 7-A
Pseudo-legend final evos: 3.1gt High 7-A
Mega evos: >5.8gt 6-C
Pseudo mega evos: >6.2gt 6-C
Gigantamax: >14.5gt 6-C
Pseudo Gigantamax: >15.5gt 6-C
Marrowak with the bone: 5.8gt 6-C

So overall: final evos high 7-A, any transformation is 6-C

Speed upgrade:
Pokemon final evolutions speed CRT

not mine, but it got accepted and it was decided that they'll wait for this thread to come out so if everything got accepted this would be edited in as well.
So if this gets accepted please do the necessary upgrades shown in that thread as well

Overall:
I believe that there shouldn't be any concerns of it being an outlier given the consistency of pokemon such as Tyranitar and Dugtrio causing earthquakes and causing changes in geography, Copperajah terraforming land and wiping out mountains and more feats of pokemon just wrecking entire environments with their attacks (i mean the fights between fully evolved ice type pokemon can literally cause a snow storm strong enough to completely cancel flights for a day).
This should bring pokemon up a notch and it would help its case when it comes to high end feats.

That is all, i would like your opinions.
 
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probably the fact that it can even be learned by a geodude
Even Solar Beam can be dodged from base mons, so? Magnitude for obvious levels can't be used at all the levels, but is depending on the stage. We have now a proof that Magnitude 9 can be used canonically from Stage 1 mons, so for obvious reasons the 10 can be used from Fully evolved mons.
 
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Even Solar Beam can be dodged from base mons, so? Magnitude for obvious levels can't be used at all the levels, but is depending on the stage. We have now a proof that Magnitude 9 can be used canonically from Stage 1 mons, so for obvious reasons the 10 can be used from Fully evolved mons.
i'll let the experts decide. For now what's important to me is my calcs and the upgrades
 

DragonGamerZ913

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If you want my honest opinion, we should just scale them all to Tyranitar’s calc. All final evolutions are comparable to one another.

Also, where did the 5x multiplier for Gigantamax come from?
 

DragonGamerZ913

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I don’t agree, as it’s pretty much an outlier especially with the fact that even Diglett can learn it. The Tyranitar feat is fine.
 
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I don’t agree, as it’s pretty much an outlier especially with the fact that even Diglett can learn it. The Tyranitar feat is fine.
It's an outlier for base/stage 1, but since Magnitude 9 is canonically a thing from stage 1, why wouldn't 10 be legit for fully evolved ones at this point?
 
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Actually, read it bad, though Piloswine was for Stage 1 lmfao.

Anyway, I still think Magnitude 10 should be used as it actually has feats supporting it this time.
 

ElixirBlue

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Question: the Piloswine being referenced is trained by an expert Gym Leader. Does this scaling apply to Wild Pokémon?
 

ElixirBlue

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Giving it has feats of matching a fully evolved Pokémon and being notably strong amount the species, then yes.
The fully evolved Pokémon the OP referenced, Tyranitar, is a stage 3 evolution while Piloswine is a stage 2. Both are fully evolved but I’m not familiar with the VSBW standards for the stage 2 and stage 3 final evolution scaling.

Do they scale naturally?
 
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The fully evolved Pokémon the OP referenced, Tyranitar, is a stage 3 evolution while Piloswine is a stage 2. Both are fully evolved but I’m not familiar with the VSBW standards for the stage 2 and stage 3 final evolution scaling.

Do they scale naturally?
The Piloswine mentioned isn't as much of a threat as it got taken care of easily by a mid-trained Politoad and murkrow.
Piloswine is a stage 2 but the thing is, it was indeed more powerful than usual, but not to any crazy extent, still, it was swinub's last evolution at that time, a weak one none the less. For a first evolution the mon is strong scaling above the likes of pupitar but way below fully evolved starters and such. So overall, not only is the piloswine in question somewhat comparable to 3rd stages but also somewhat stronger than average. Thus this one doesn't scale to other 2nd stages.

Tryranitar is indeed a 3rd stage. And scales to other 3rd stages.

Basically this is a stage 3 upgrade, not stage 2
 

GyroNutz

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Magnitude got retconned out of existence since SwSh

I think it's safer to avoid using moves like Magnitude and Defog that any stage Pokemon can learn naturally simply for final stage scaling. Magnitude in particular is very consistently learned at low levels, for what it's worth.

OP is fine, we have two accepted High 7-A+ calcs, one which is performed by a 3rd stage and one which could be argued to be final stage level. There's also several 7-A feats to support this (the Copperajah one is its Gmax form). I would prefer more agreement on the gmax multiplier thread, since a staff member (Yuri) disagreed with it initially.
 

ElixirBlue

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The Piloswine mentioned isn't as much of a threat as it got taken care of easily by a mid-trained Politoad and murkrow.
Piloswine is a stage 2 but the thing is, it was indeed more powerful than usual, but not to any crazy extent, still, it was swinub's last evolution at that time, a weak one none the less. For a first evolution the mon is strong scaling above the likes of pupitar but way below fully evolved starters and such. So overall, not only is the piloswine in question somewhat comparable to 3rd stages but also somewhat stronger than average. Thus this one doesn't scale to other 2nd stages.

Tryranitar is indeed a 3rd stage. And scales to other 3rd stages.

Basically this is a stage 3 upgrade, not stage 2
Alrighty. I was wondering how the scaling was working out, but if Piloswine (stage 2) is used as supporting evidence for Stage 3 Pokémon, I see little issue with that.
 

GyroNutz

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We should explain that this Piloswine is more powerful than usual, so it's clear this isn't a repeat of all final stages scaling above Pupitar to hide the outlier for mid-stages.
 

ElixirBlue

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We should explain that this Piloswine is more powerful than usual, so it's clear this isn't a repeat of all final stages scaling above Pupitar to hide the outlier for mid-stages.
I thought of that but Piloswine’s calc is lower than Tyranitar’s. Even if it’s an outlier for Stage 2, I thought Piloswine could still act a support for Stage 3.
 

GyroNutz

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I thought of that but Piloswine’s calc is lower than Tyranitar’s. Even if it’s an outlier for Stage 2, I thought Piloswine could still act a support for Stage 3.
Yeah it's fine to support 3rd stages, just that the Pokemon who performed the feat isn't just a typical 2nd stage.
 
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I think it's safer to avoid using moves like Magnitude and Defog that any stage Pokemon can learn naturally simply for final stage scaling. Magnitude in particular is very consistently learned at low levels, for what it's worth.
It's learned at low levels from low stages. However, since Team Rocket's Piloswine and Tyranitar feats are actually pretty close to the 10, I don't think it's an immense screech to make the 10 usable, since this time is actually supported.
There's also several 7-A feats to support this (the Copperajah one is its Gmax form)
If you mean this "So much power is packed within its trunk that if it were to unleash that power, the resulting blast could level mountains and change the landscape.", then is prolly calc-worth.

EDIT: There's also the Charizard feat that needs to be recalculated, so I'll do it.
 
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It's learned at low levels from low stages. However, since Team Rocket's Piloswine and Tyranitar feats are actually pretty close to the 10, I don't think it's an immense screech to make the 10 usable, since this time is actually supported.

If you mean this "So much power is packed within its trunk that if it were to unleash that power, the resulting blast could level mountains and change the landscape.", then is prolly calc-worth.

EDIT: There's also the Charizard feat that needs to be recalculated, so I'll do it.
It isn't. Leveling british mountains is like 7-B. I used it to support the concept of wiping out terrain and terraforming entire environments
 
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Ik it is early but bump.

C'mon i need more opinions, thoughts. This is a big upgrade so I'd like some more people agreeing so nobody tries shiz when they see it
 
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Though i guess i already do have the agreement of 4 mods and many experienced members...
 

DragonGamerZ913

VS Battles
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There's also some specific anime stuff that'll need scaling adjustments, such as Pikachu being High 7-A+ for its first key and 6-C in its next 2 keys, and its Gigantamax being 5x that 6-C value. Leon's team would be 6-C, and Gigantamax Charizard would scale above Gigantamax Pikachu.

Also worth mentioning is that base Eternatus would now be 988.25 petatons (above G-Max Urshifu which is 5x regular Urshifu which scales above Regice), and Eternamax Eternatus would be 4.94 exatons (5x its base form)
 
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There's also some specific anime stuff that'll need scaling adjustments, such as Pikachu being High 7-A+ for its first key and 6-C in its next 2 keys, and its Gigantamax being 5x that 6-C value. Leon's team would be 6-C, and Gigantamax Charizard would scale above Gigantamax Pikachu.

Also worth mentioning is that base Eternatus would now be 986 petatons (above G-Max Urshifu which is 5x regular Urshifu which scales above Regice), and Eternamax Eternatus would be 4.93 exatons (5x its base form)
I do not agree with the last part.
Gigantamax multiplier was only meant for the normal pokemon, not legendaries as we don't actually know how it affects legendaries. The reason why 5x is acceptable for final evos is because G-max Centiskorch would scale to other G-max mons, but legendaries wouldn't scale and thus their multiplier is unquantifiable (could be anywhere from 2x to 1000x)
 

DragonGamerZ913

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I do not agree with the last part.
Gigantamax multiplier was only meant for the normal pokemon, not legendaries as we don't actually know how it affects legendaries. The reason why 5x is acceptable for final evos is because G-max Centiskorch would scale to other G-max mons, but legendaries wouldn't scale and thus their multiplier is unquantifiable (could be anywhere from 2x to 1000x)
Eternamax is a strictly superior transformation to Gigantamax, so it's going to at the very least have that 5x multiplier. It'd be an "at least 5x" multiplier.
 
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Yeah, is not a Mega Evo situation where only Mewtwo and Rayquaza have a jump from Tier 5 to 3. Eternamax is literally a power-upped version of whatever Dynamax variant, saying it gives a lower multipler is nonsense.

It's learned at low levels from low stages. However, since Team Rocket's Piloswine and Tyranitar feats are actually pretty close to the 10, I don't think it's an immense screech to make the 10 usable, since this time is actually supported.
And please someone answer to this.
 

DragonGamerZ913

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I don't think we can simply make a feat an outlier for some and not for others, it's either an outlier or it's not.
 
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I don't think we can simply make a feat an outlier for some and not for others, it's either an outlier or it's not.
Magnitude 10 is a thing in the verse and we all know it already. But there are extensions of the move as well. Charizard's Flametrower is 7-A+. Does that mean that is an outlier because it would mean that "anyone can learn it so it would be an outlier"? Obviously not, there are clearly extensions of the move. Another example is Solar Beam, where despite even base mons can learn it, only fully evolved have feats of scaling in speed from such. This applies to Magnitude too. They have feats of magnitude amplitude depending on the stage, and Magnitude 10 for fully evolved mons is supported from having feats really close to such.
 

DragonGamerZ913

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Solar Beam, sure you could use that as an example for what you're saying, but Charizard isn't good support given that the statement was that his Flamethrower specifically can melt mountains.

Also Magnitude got yeeted out of existence in Sword and Shield
 
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Idk man i feel like the magnitude move is problematic, is there a single instance where we see good range for it? Because earthquake has actual distance and evidence for the distance while magnitude just has a number planted there and that's that.
 
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but Charizard isn't good support given that the statement was that his Flamethrower specifically can melt mountains.
...yeah, I didn't have a better example in my mind. We can use Defog tho, since only Fully evolved mons have feats comparable to it, like Tyranitar changing the surroundings like Defog does. Scrapping away a move just because "everyone can learn it" while they have feats comparable to the results of said move help thinking about which stage apply said feat to.
Idk man i feel like the magnitude move is problematic, is there a single instance where we see good range for it? Because earthquake has actual distance and evidence for the distance while magnitude just has a number planted there and that's that.
We have a chart for the baseline magnitudes, so not much of a problem.
 

DragonGamerZ913

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It is true that Magnitude 10 is consistent in its value, but I'm still not sure about using it due to the aforementioned issues. I'm neutral.
 
I agree with the OP. However since I don't know Pokémon as well as everyone else (been ages since I played any Pokémon games) I won't take part in the debate. If my vote is the last remaining vote in favor then I'll take it back
 
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I tried making a calc

Magnitude 10 right? The max distance in Mystery dungeon is a room.
Ill use this room as it is the biggest one i've seen anywhere
29-Image15.png

The big blue square is, of course, the room map, thus it's length is the max distance one magnitude attack can reach. Note that a single pixel in the screenshot doesn't equal the same as a pixel in the image's resolution so i am using a pixel scaling site for this.

squirtle is 38px but 50.8cm
1px is 1.33684210526cm

a wonder tile is the size of one general tile so it should be equal to the stairwell in size
A wonder tile is 49px thus it is 65.5052631579cm

now for the map
a stairwell is 8px
the room is 414px
the room is 3389.89736842cm or 33.8989 meters

let's get on with the calc

10+(0.0238*0.03389)= 10.000806582
10^((1.5*10.000806582)+4.8)= 6.3271754e+19 joules
6.3271754e+19 joules = 15122312141.49139595 tons of tnt or 15.122gt which is 6-C

my main issue would be the fact that we see no visible destruction to support the suggested strength for the earthquake so i feel like mag 10 may be an overstatement. Though i never did get to see the animation for the 3d games
 
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btw i just decided to see what would happen if i used mag 9.5 for my piloswine calc as the desruction could be easily argued to be of that level
9.5+(0.0238*22.11)=10.026218
10^((1.5*10.026218)+4.8)= 6.9075971e+19 joules
6.9075971e+19 joules is 16509553298.279159546 tons of tnt or 16.5gt

any thoughts?
 
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Piloswine feat was blatantly 9 as such magnitude is even described bringing such levels of Destruction irl.

However, this just supports even more 10 being supported imo.
 
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Piloswine feat was blatantly 9 as such magnitude is even described bringing such levels of Destruction irl.

However, this just supports even more 10 being supported imo.
i mean he turned ectrueak city into a soup of torn off rocks from the roads and torn off buildings. it significantly affected the earth's tectonic plates and as i see it did more damage than the earthquake of chile... i mean i looked at the images and i don't see cities and roads turned into a rocky soup so..
 
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i mean he turned ectrueak city into a soup of torn off rocks from the roads and torn off buildings. it significantly affected the earth's tectonic plates and as i see it did more damage than the earthquake of chile... i mean i looked at the images and i don't see cities and roads turned into a rocky soup so..
And that's what 9 would do. So?
 
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there was far superior damage to the roads and such but whatever i guess.
From Wikipedia on the "9 and above"

At or near total destruction – severe damage or collapse to all buildings. Heavy damage and shaking extends to distant locations. Permanent changes in ground topography.

And since we go with low ends we make 9 as minimum.
 

Starter_Pack

The Forgotten, Yet Destined
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From what I can see, Tyranitar's feat looks pretty acceptable from where I'm standing, and Piloswine's whole deal here would be fine as a support for the Tyranitar feat. I'm fine with this.

Neutral on the usage of Magnitude as well, since everyone has fair points on that regarding scaling, but I'm leaning towards approving on that.
 

DragonGamerZ913

VS Battles
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I think I'm leaning more toward agree on using Magnitude, but only for final evolutions. This would mean they'd be 15.08 gigatons, Megas would be 30.16 gigatons, Gigantamaxes would be 75.4 gigatons, and Leon's G-Max Charizard would be 150.8 gigatons (as it's 5x its base form, which scales above Ash's Pikachu, which scales to Megas).

However, I'm mostly neutral still.
 
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Leon's G-Max Charizard would be 150.8 gigatons (as it's 5x its base form, which scales above Ash's Pikachu, which scales to Megas).
Doesn't Leon's Base Charizard scale to Gigantamaxes? (Easily stomped a Dynamax Perrserker and a G-max Centiscorch) So wouldn't Leon's G-Max Charizard be 377 gigatons?
 
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Lemme write it out in case we decide to use magnitude

Final evos: 15gt
Marrowak with bone: 30gt
Mega evos: >30gt
G-max: >75gt
Champion level pokemon (like pikachu): >30gt
Champion level mega evos: 60gt
Champion level g-max: 150gt
Leon's charizard: 1/2 of g-max and thus 45gt
G-max leon's charizard: 225gt
 
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Dudes, that Piloswine should be treated as a full evolution mon because:
  • It's not only of Team Rocket, but is also stronger than the other Piloswines as it's bigger than the average one.
  • Was able to contend with a Politoed.
  • At the time it was a full evolution.
 
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Dudes, that Piloswine should be treated as a full evolution mon because:
  • It's not only of Team Rocket, but is also stronger than the other Piloswines as it's bigger than the average one.
  • Was able to contend with a Politoed.
  • At the time it was a full evolution.
He literally said that it should scale to final evolution
 
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So, other than this we have also to:
  • Make Stage 1 mons only MHS+ via upscaling from base, the calc they're based on is a joke calc and yet was taken seriously.
  • Update the Lifting Strenght to the following:
    • Peak Human for Baby (Upscaling from Chuck)
    • Class 25 for Base (Coz Mantyke)
    • Class 25 for Stage 1 via upscaling (Class 50 feats are non-existent, but I can get more if I calc this)
    • Class K for Stage 2 and Legendaries (Due of Ash's Gible, who is consistently shown at such level)
 

DragonGamerZ913

VS Battles
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A have a good news about LS:

LGPE Dex is this

One arm alone can move mountains. Using all four arms, this Pokémon fires off awesome punches.

And Class T is the one that is related to Mountain level LS on the page.

So Fully evolved mons should at very least be on these levels in LS.

Last thing that really remains imo is just to check the Machoke feat to see if Stage 1 are Class M or still on 25.
I did a calc on this, and it was Class T, but it wouldn't scale to all final evos. Machamp is among the best in terms of LS, so the only ones who'd scale are Machamp, Grimmsnarl, and Megas and Gigantamaxes.

Also, gotta agree with Bambu about the Class M calc
 
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Also, Centiskorch hasn't a profile, so scaling from someone who hasn't a profile is eeeeeeeh.
Time to make one then
I don't think 2x is accepted for super-effective moves outside the games.
Darn. Still we shouldn't scale him directly to 5x as he still used a super effective move and thus should scale notably above 2x, he did take hits from g-max pikachu.

Also can you ping the other mods like i asked you to so they can agree or disagree to magnitude?
 

DragonGamerZ913

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Time to make one then

Darn. Still we shouldn't scale him directly to 5x as he still used a super effective move and thus should scale notably above 2x, he did take hits from g-max pikachu.
We can scale him notably above Ash's Pikachu at least, which is essentially scaling notably above 2x
 
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I currently won't be able to create profiles for the time being, can someone do it when the changes will be applied?
 
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btw i am tryna make a centiskorch profile, do we add tm moves? cause i am seeing lots of them in the profiles for the likes of charizard
 

DragonGamerZ913

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Wouldn't Leon scale directly to the 5x by being stronger than Raihan? (Raihan's Base Duraludon could keep up with a Dynamaxed Kommo-o and defeated all of Oleana's Pokémon when they were Dynamaxed)
Gigantamax is strictly superior to Dynamax. We can't apply the 5x multiplier to Dynamax, so the answer is no. In addition, with Oleana's Pokemon, we can't assume that Duraludon was in its base form when it defeated them.
 
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guys how about we wait with some stuff.

I want to get ap out of the way and also the speed thread i linked. We need an AP agreement and that's that atm, it is gonna be hard changing the entirety of the ap and striking strength
let's do ls later
 
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also imma be real i gave up on trying as i never made a profile page for pokemon
here's the sandbox to make your life easier, you can add up to it.
 

DragonGamerZ913

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Alright, here's my full opinion on how I believe things should be for AP scaling:

Final evolutions: 15.08 gigatons (6-C)
Mega Evolutions/Marowak with Bone: 30.16 gigatons (6-C)
Leon's Charizard: At least 30.16 gigatons (At least 6-C)
Gigantamaxes: 75.4 gigatons (6-C+)
Leon's G-Max Charizard: 150.8 gigatons (High 6-C)

This is all assuming that Magnitude is accepted. If not, I think it should look like this:

Final evolutions: 3.1 gigatons (High 7-A+)
Mega Evolutions/Marowak with Bone: 6.2 gigatons (6-C)
Leon's Charizard: At least 6.2 gigatons (At least 6-C)
Gigantamaxes: 15.5 gigatons (6-C)
Leon's G-Max Charizard: 31 gigatons (6-C)
 
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So we have for LS:
  • Baby: At least Peak Human
  • Base: Class 25
  • Stage 1: At least Class 25
  • Stage 2: Class 100 (Heracross and Snornal)
  • Machamp and Grimmsnarl: Class T
  • Mega, Gigantamax and Legendaries: At least Class T
I'm a bit disappointed but that's what it is.
 
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i would personally scale her to 1st stages (or mid evos or whatever you call it) but whatever

anyways COULD ANYONE PLEASE PING THE REST OF THE MODS SO THEY CAN GIVE THEIR THOUGHTS ON MAGNITUDE 10 AP?
 
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i would personally scale her to 1st stages (or mid evos or whatever you call it) but whatever

anyways COULD ANYONE PLEASE PING THE REST OF THE MODS SO THEY CAN GIVE THEIR THOUGHTS ON MAGNITUDE 10 AP?
Tbh, if they didn't counter the new points, I guess that it's good to go. Many CRT went like this.
 
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Tbh, if they didn't counter the new points, I guess that it's good to go. Many CRT went like this.
They never saw the new points bro. We gotta call em so they can give their opinion otherwise this might get retconned. They saw G-maxes becoming 15gt, not G-maxes becoming 75gt
 
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