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KieranH10

VS Battles
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The OP generally makes sense to me.

I'm still unsure about using Magnitude in general as justification for AP. As has been said, stage 1 Pokemon can also use that and potentially get Magnitude 10. But the calculations are fine so I can agree with that at least.
 
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I'm still unsure about using Magnitude in general as justification for AP. As has been said, stage 1 Pokemon can also use that and potentially get Magnitude 10. But the calculations are fine so I can agree with that at least.
I've already answered why it should be used:
  • Not using it would mean that Solar Beam should be dismissed as well as even Base Pokémon can dodge Solar Beam in gameplay, which is untrue.
  • Defog can be used from anyone too, but its results are applied to only full evos.
  • Magnitude 10 can be used from fully evos as their feats are >Magnitude 9, making 10 actually supported now.
 

KieranH10

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Two, or Four wrongs don't make a right.

Either the higher feats scale to everyone, or they don't scale to anyone. We cant arbitrarily scale moves that all Pokemon can learn only to higher tiers because they give high results. If a first stage Pokemon can use Defog, it either scales to that first stage Pokemon, or is disregarded. Same applies to Magnitude.
 
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Game Mechanics are a thing for one. It obviously is wrong scaling Pidgey to Defog, but since Pidgeot has scaling to comparable feats, then scaling Defog to it is legit.

Same with Magnitude, it gives random values between 1 and 10. We can perfectly use feats to decide which degree of magnitude they scale of. Base and Stage 1 scale to lower degrees, Fully evolved scale to higher ones because they have feats supporting them being actually able to use such. It's simple as that.
 

KieranH10

VS Battles
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I'm neutral on this general subject, leaning towards disagreeing with the Magnitude argument. We're accepting that first stage Pokemon can use magnitude, but ignoring how the move actually works.
 
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They can use it, but only on lower degrees as even supported from the lore. Since fully evolved have feats of using higher ones, disregarding it would as bad as disregarding Solar Beam because of this, and I rest my case.
 
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Anyway, I found 2 LS feats for Poké Humans

1) Wulfric lifts Avalugg with Bonnie on it, with Avalugg being 505 kg heavy and Bonnie being 25.8 Kg (as she's 8 yo) making the total weight 530.8 Kg (Peak Human)
tumblr_o7fx3rqL8I1rduh3zo2_500.gif


2) Alder trowing Gigalith (Peak Human)

3) Ash's log trow calc, who is both 206,480.59103 Joules (9-B) and 4164.09 Kg (Class 5)

Every Human should scale from this and Baby Pokémon upscale too.
 
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What is the scaling everyone is settling on?
In AP:
Alright, here's my full opinion on how I believe things should be for AP scaling:

Final evolutions: 15.08 gigatons (6-C)
Mega Evolutions/Marowak with Bone: 30.16 gigatons (6-C)
Leon's Charizard: At least 30.16 gigatons (At least 6-C)
Gigantamaxes: 75.4 gigatons (6-C+)
Leon's G-Max Charizard: 150.8 gigatons (High 6-C)

This is all assuming that Magnitude is accepted. If not, I think it should look like this:

Final evolutions: 3.1 gigatons (High 7-A+)
Mega Evolutions/Marowak with Bone: 6.2 gigatons (6-C)
Leon's Charizard: At least 6.2 gigatons (At least 6-C)
Gigantamaxes: 15.5 gigatons (6-C)
Leon's G-Max Charizard: 31 gigatons (6-C)
In LS:
  • Humans: Class 5
  • Baby: At least Class 5
  • Base: Class 25
  • Stage 1: At least Class 25
  • Stage 2: Class M
  • Machamp and Grimmsnarl: Class T
  • Mega and Gigantamax: At least Class T
  • Legendaries: At least Class T, likely far higher
Edit: Speed for Stage 1 will be just "At least Massively Hypersonic+", the Sub-Rel+ was based on a joke calc which was seriously applied. Agreed on the FTL final stages thread.
 

GyroNutz

VS Battles
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So, other than this we have also to:
  • Update the Lifting Strenght to the following:
    • Peak Human for Baby (Upscaling from Chuck)
    • Class 25 for Base (Coz Mantyke)
    • Class 25 for Stage 1 via upscaling (Class 50 feats are non-existent, but I can get more if I calc this)
    • Class K for Stage 2 and Legendaries (Due of Ash's Gible, who is consistently shown at such level)
I made this calc for Pokemon lifting strength. Yet to be accepted, but it could potentially make all Pokemon that learn Strength (HM) Class K.

It's learned at low levels from low stages. However, since Team Rocket's Piloswine and Tyranitar feats are actually pretty close to the 10, I don't think it's an immense screech to make the 10 usable, since this time is actually supported.
Why not just use the calcs that we have though? The calcs support High 7-A+ from Magnitude 9 earthquakes, it's not a big leap to assume they can cause Magnitude 10 earthquakes but it's a leap nonetheless.

For the Defog and Solar Beam counter arguments, Defog has already been contested on several occasions for these same reasons though this was never resolved since it was just a support feat anyway. Also iirc it uses map scaling, which would be a no-no anyways. Solar Beam has already been resolved in the OP, though if the argument is to give first stage Pokemon SoL attack speed I wouldn't mind that.
 
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If im being honest we never see any fully evolved pokemon (unless extremely well trained or a legendary) blitz any lower stages. They are faster but never have they been shown to move that fast
 

GyroNutz

VS Battles
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I mean, with the exception of notably fast Pokemon like Ninjask, everyone in Pokemon appears to move at comparable speeds, from Baby Pokemon to Legendaries. I guess that's why Solar Beam was never too problematic.
 

ElixirBlue

VS Battles
Content Moderator
9,397
2,121
In AP:

In LS:
  • Humans: Class 5
  • Baby: At least Class 5
  • Base: Class 25
  • Stage 1: At least Class 25
  • Stage 2: Class M
  • Machamp and Grimmsnarl: Class T
  • Mega and Gigantamax: At least Class T
  • Legendaries: At least Class T, likely far higher
Edit: Speed for Stage 1 will be just "At least Massively Hypersonic+", the Sub-Rel+ was based on a joke calc which was seriously applied. Agreed on the FTL final stages thread.
If there are no further need to discuss, I say it good to apply. Nothing I can tell immediately seems out of place.

What about Magnitude 10?
I dunno about Magnitude 10. If its still in discussion, you could make a thread dedicated to it while applying the things accepted.
 
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I dunno about Magnitude 10. If its still in discussion, you could make a thread dedicated to it while applying the things accepted.
Uhm, no. This is about AP, we can talk about it here.
Why not just use the calcs that we have though? The calcs support High 7-A+ from Magnitude 9 earthquakes, it's not a big leap to assume they can cause Magnitude 10 earthquakes but it's a leap nonetheless
They can canonically use it. Discarding it as they never did is nonsense.
 
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So in general it seems that mag 10 is mostly rejected. I'll make a calc and add it to calc list but unless this argument goes anywhere we're just gonna need to apply the 3.1gt one
 
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Btw i messed up a little.

The feat is 3.18 not 3.1 gigatons so the scaling would be higher such as 6.2gt becoming 6.4
 

DragonGamerZ913

VS Battles
Calculation Group
2,954
1,664
The High 7-A+ seems fine. Good thing I mentioned how scaling probably will be in a post so it's all compiled right there.
 
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High 7-A

High 7-A
| 6-C

High 7-A
| 6-C | 6-C

Large Mountain level+
(comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club) | Island level (Far stronger than before. Should be comparable to other Gigantamax pokemon such as Centiscorch)

Large Mountain Class

Large Mountain Class
| Island Class

Large Mountain Class
| Island Class | Island Class

Large Mountain level+
(comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club)

Large Mountain level+ (Can tank hits from other fully evolved pokemon) | Island level (Can take hits from other mega evolved Pokemon) | Island level (Far stronger than before. Should be comparable to other Gigantamax pokemon such as Centiscorch)

LS:
Class M (should be superior to Brock's Happiny) | Class M
Class M
(should be superior to Brock's Happiny) | Class M | Class T (superior to the likes of Machamp)

Speed:
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc)
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc) | FTL (faster than before)
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc) | FTL (faster than before) | FTL


Marrowak:

Only ap with thick club reaches 6-C, not dura

Pikachu: ill edit him myself

i prepared the text already
 
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GyroNutz

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
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They can canonically use it. Discarding it as they never did is nonsense.
I don't see how this is relevant? We weren't discussing whether the move (or "feat") exists or not, it's whether it makes sense to scale it to fully evolved Pokemon given that it's commonly learned at lower levels and can be used by first stage Pokemon. Our calculations suggest High 7-A+, which is the most reliable tiering.

Anyways, should we agree on lifting strength changes too? It will affect a lot of profiles so may as well add it in with the other changes. I think any Pokemon that learns Strength should get Class K lifting strength based on my calc above and the Gible calc (since apparently it was wild + used strength). Class M fully evolved Pokemon and Class T legendaries were also brought up.
 
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Magnitude should be scaled to last stage pokemon because:
1: they can use it
2: it makes sense
3: idk I wanted to make a list of reasons because I think it should be counted
 

KieranH10

VS Battles
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2,933
2,392
I don't see how this is relevant? We weren't discussing whether the move (or "feat") exists or not, it's whether it makes sense to scale it to fully evolved Pokemon given that it's commonly learned at lower levels and can be used by first stage Pokemon. Our calculations suggest High 7-A+, which is the most reliable tiering.
I agree with this.
 
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Ok so, let me go straight and debunk these points.

It can be learned even from Geodude, tanked from Baby mons and is consistently learned at low levels across all stages.

Game Mechanics exist. I'm not arguing that now even Babies have 6-C stats because of this, as with like this everyone and their mothers would be 2-B/2-A. I'm arguing that we should use feats to decide which degree of Magnitude we should use. If feats for fully evolution mons are close to 10, then what exactly stops us from using it? It got beyond Magnitude 9 feat wise, saying that 10 can't be used when they have feats supporting them being able to use such amount of power even lore wise is nonsense.

Also because I got this 6-C Alakazam calc (should still be evaluated), to make it even more supported.

It is arbitrary to make scale only higher stages, we either apply it to everyone or to no one.

This is already fails since, in the case of Strength which was mentioned before, Gible, a base mon, has feats of having such LS levels in lore, and thus anyone who has Strength scales. However, in Magnitude case, only full evos showed similar degrees to such power level.

It would be safer to use just the High 7-A+ results since they can use at very least that.

That's right, if we didn't have a proof of them being even higher because Magnitude 10 is canonically a thing. They can use it in the games, they have shown >9 levels more times in lore, I'd say that is more than supported and that rejecting it is just nitpicking.
 

KieranH10

VS Battles
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Game Mechanics exist. I'm not arguing that now even Babies have 6-C stats because of this, as with like this everyone and their mothers would be 2-B/2-A. I'm arguing that we should use feats to decide which degree of Magnitude we should use. If feats for fully evolution mons are close to 10, then what exactly stops us from using it?
Because that's making up rules for a verse that simply aren't true. We cant say "Only fully evolved pokemon can use Magnitude 10" because it simply isn't true.
It got beyond Magnitude 9 feat wise, saying that 10 can't be used when they have feats supporting them being able to use such amount of power even lore wise is nonsense.
Keep it to the feats we actually see. We cant scale a move all pokemon to use and tank to only some pokemon.
This is already fails since, in the case of Strength which was mentioned before, Gible, a base mon, has feats of having such LS levels in lore, and thus anyone who has Strength scales. However, in Magnitude case, only full evos showed similar degrees to such power level.
This is a completely different scenario.
That's right, if we didn't have a proof of them being even higher because Magnitude 10 is canonically a thing. They can use it in the games, they have shown >9 levels more times in lore, I'd say that is more than supported and that rejecting it is just nitpicking.
Babies can use it in the games too, that isn't a point either way.
They have shown >9 levels in-lore, yes. But a High 7-A calculation is High 7-A.
 
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Because that's making up rules for a verse that simply aren't true. We cant say "Only fully evolved pokemon can use Magnitude 10" because it simply isn't true.
It actually is. Fully evolved mons have feats close to 10, Baby not, ergo is an outlier for whoever isn't a full evo.
Keep it to the feats we actually see. We cant scale a move all pokemon to use and tank to only some pokemon
Did I say it? I said that we should use feats to see which ones can it be applied to. I don't think is too hard to get.
This is a completely different scenario.
Nope, I'm just using the logic used behind Strength to make Magnitude 10 usable.
Babies can use it in the games too, that isn't a point either
They can tank Creation Trio attacks too, so what exactly?
They have shown >9 levels in-lore, yes. But a High 7-A calculation is High 7-A.
Read above. I'm saying that they should be used to support Magnitude 10 being a thing for Full evos.
 

KieranH10

VS Battles
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It actually is. Fully evolved mons have feats close to 10, Baby not, ergo is an outlier for whoever isn't a full evo.
But it's the same move?
Did I say it? I said that we should use feats to see which ones can it be applied to. I don't think is too hard to get.
Yes. You said that we should only use Magnitude 10 for third stage Pokemon and above... Even though First stages can use and tank it.
Nope, I'm just using the logic used behind Strength to make Magnitude 10 usable.
No, Gible is a first stage Pokemon for starters. Saying that another first stage and above Pokemon with the same move should scale to the calc is not an unreliable assumption.

On the other hand you are arguing that Magnitude, a move most notable for it's differing variable attack power, that can be learned by any stage of Pokemon, should only scale to top tiers.
They can tank Creation Trio attacks too, so what exactly?
And how do we treat that?
Read above. I'm saying that they should be used to support Magnitude 10 being a thing for Full evos.
We're either taking Magnitude 10 into account in general, or not. We cant have an in-between for the same move at the same stated power.
 
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But it's the same move?
Same move that is used at different degrees and scale. It's from 4 to 10, and I'm arguing that higher levels are legit only for higher stages due of having feats comparable to these.
Yes. You said that we should only use Magnitude 10 for third stage Pokemon and above... Even though First stages can use and tank it.
Throught game mechanics and not lore.
No, Gible is a first stage Pokemon for starters. Saying that another first stage and above Pokemon with the same move should scale to the calc is not an unreliable assumption.

On the other hand you are arguing that Magnitude, a move most notable for it's differing variable attack power, that can be learned by any stage of Pokemon, should only scale to top tiers.
I said for the ones who can learn Strenght tho...
And how do we treat that?
Game mechanics, as said above.
We're either taking Magnitude 10 into account in general, or not. We cant have an in-between for the same move at the same stated power.
Said power is absolutely not the same when Magnitude has canonically a scale of degrees which are from 4 to 10.

And BTW, I checked the Alakazam feat and that wasn't KE at all in the ep, making that calc unusable.
 

KieranH10

VS Battles
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Same move that is used at different degrees and scale. It's from 4 to 10, and I'm arguing that higher levels are legit only for higher stages due of having feats comparable to these.
And ignoring the main function of the attack in the process, Pokemon cannot control the level at which Magnitude is used. A Stage 3 has just as much a chance to use Mag10 than a stage 1 does.
Throught game mechanics and not lore.
Stage 3's cant use Magnitude 10 through lore.
I said for the ones who can learn Strenght tho...
So did I? The ones who can learn strength scaling to Gibles strength calc is not a large assumption, because Gible is a stage 1 who should be comparable to other stage 1s, and inferior to higher stages.
Game mechanics, as said above.
Then why bring up the point?
Said power is absolutely not the same when Magnitude has canonically a scale of degrees which are from 4 to 10.
Which can all be used by all Pokemon, and varies the same between all Pokemon.
considering no new arguments have risen, should we just get on with the upgrade?
I'm fine with the Upgrade to the High 7-A Calc. Not using Magnitude 10.
 

KieranH10

VS Battles
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Somebody who knows about Centiscorch 👀

I'd do it if I cared at all for anything past Black and White 2
 
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Somebody who knows about Centiscorch 👀

I'd do it if I cared at all for anything past Black and White 2
Thing is we need one for scaling G-max mons and idk anything about the rules behind making poke-profiles. It really isn't that hard for someone who made profiles before, and idk who else to ask. Ik that you don't wanna but i would really appreciate if you could make one, heck, i even posted my small attempted sandbox of the profile in the messages above (i think) and all you have to do is add any TM moves or what ever is allowed on a profile and add in some of the moves in G-max form
 

GyroNutz

VS Battles
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So to clarify:

High 7-A+ fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Tyranitar and manga Piloswine's feat.

6-C pure/huge power Pokemon (+ thick club Marowak), via being 2x Tyranitar's feat, and megas via being > the former.

5x multiplier for Dynamax, Gigantamax and Eternamax due to Dragonite, Pikachu and Riolu's combined attack matching a G-Max Centiskorch (resulting in 6-C gigantamax Pokemon).

FTL fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Golem and anime Lycanroc, and megas etc, scaling from Ash Greninja

Class K strength users, via scaling to Gible and via pushing the blocks in the Abyssal Ruins.

Class M fully evolved Pokemon, via scaling above Brock's Happiny

Class T legendaries (and gigantamax Pokemon?), via scaling above Machamp

Anything I missed?
 
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So to clarify:

High 7-A+ fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Tyranitar and manga Piloswine's feat.

6-C pure/huge power Pokemon (+ thick club Marowak), via being 2x Tyranitar's feat, and megas via being > the former.

5x multiplier for Dynamax, Gigantamax and Eternamax due to Dragonite, Pikachu and Riolu's combined attack matching a G-Max Centiskorch (resulting in 6-C gigantamax Pokemon).

FTL fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Golem and anime Lycanroc, and megas etc, scaling from Ash Greninja

Class K strength users, via scaling to Gible and via pushing the blocks in the Abyssal Ruins.

Class M fully evolved Pokemon, via scaling above Brock's Happiny

Class T legendaries (and gigantamax Pokemon?), via scaling above Machamp

Anything I missed?
Class T for Certain Pokemon like Grimmsnarl who is superior to Machamp as well as Megas and Gigantamax
but everything else looks correct
 

DragonGamerZ913

VS Battles
Calculation Group
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I'll start making the Centiskorch profile and then we can apply changes going from that profile.

Last thing: Do Gigantamaxes scale to Ash-Greninja's speed?
 
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Sorry for not doing this once again. I had some shiz coming up.
Anyways tomorrow i will actually have time and around up to sunday.
 
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I can help with updating some profiles tomorrow hopefully.
great! it ain't gonna be easy for poor ol me here to upgrade every single one of em.
Anyways i wanna take gen 1-2. In fact ill do the beginning of the upgrade right now and update tyranitar and swinub
 
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So to clarify:

FTL fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Golem and anime Lycanroc, and megas etc, scaling from Ash Greninja
Actually, Ash-Greninja fought Toe-to-Toe with Alain's Mega Charizard X, who easily blocked a heat wave from Trevor's Mega Charizard Y in Base, which was boosted by drought. That same Mega Charizard X also one shotted this Mega Charizard Y with a flamethrower

So: Alain's Mega Charizard X >>> Base Charizard >> Trevor's Mega Charizard Y with drought >> Mega Charizard Y >>> Base Charizard

Ash Greninja < Alain's Mega Charizard X, but only slightly, as they were almost on equal footing for a long time in their match

Both Ash's Greninja and Alain's Mega Charizard X fought toe to toe with the Champion's Ace Pokemon (Charizard against Steven's Metagross, and Ash against Diantha's Gardevoir)
 

DragonGamerZ913

VS Battles
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ok but what speed to i use?
Like what calc and to whom should i add it?
To be honest, I'm not sure. Like, you would definitely link Lycanroc's feat in Lycanroc's profile and Golem's feat on Golem's profile, but after that, you don't really need to link directly to the calc on anyone since all final evolutions are relative to each other.
 
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To be honest, I'm not sure. Like, you would definitely link Lycanroc's feat in Lycanroc's profile and Golem's feat on Golem's profile, but after that, you don't really need to link directly to the calc on anyone since all final evolutions are relative to each other.
I'll upgrade Lycanroc and i'll do the rest tommorow
 
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Actually, Ash-Greninja fought Toe-to-Toe with Alain's Mega Charizard X, who easily blocked a heat wave from Trevor's Mega Charizard Y in Base, which was boosted by drought. That same Mega Charizard X also one shotted this Mega Charizard Y with a flamethrower

So: Alain's Mega Charizard X >>> Base Charizard >> Trevor's Mega Charizard Y with drought >> Mega Charizard Y >>> Base Charizard

Ash Greninja < Alain's Mega Charizard X, but only slightly, as they were almost on equal footing for a long time in their match

Both Ash's Greninja and Alain's Mega Charizard X fought toe to toe with the Champion's Ace Pokemon (Charizard against Steven's Metagross, and Ash against Diantha's Gardevoir)
Just saying that Ash Greninja scales above Regular Megas and not to them
 

GyroNutz

VS Battles
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Both Ash's Greninja and Alain's Mega Charizard X fought toe to toe with the Champion's Ace Pokemon (Charizard against Steven's Metagross, and Ash against Diantha's Gardevoir)
Toe to toe is an exaggeration imo, Ash-Gren lost that fight and Steven's Metagross was able to keep up with Mega Zard in its base form. Also remember that Alain's Zard X would have been boosted by Zard Y's drought too. Though I do agree that Ash-Gren is above regular megas. Perhaps downscaling megas from Ash Greninja's feat would work?
 
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Toe to toe is an exaggeration imo, Ash-Gren lost that fight and Steven's Metagross was able to keep up with Mega Zard in its base form. Also remember that Alain's Zard X would have been boosted by Zard Y's drought too. Though I do agree that Ash-Gren is above regular megas. Perhaps downscaling megas from Ash Greninja's feat would work?
They'd all still be FTL so
 
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Toe to toe is an exaggeration imo, Ash-Gren lost that fight and Steven's Metagross was able to keep up with Mega Zard in its base form. Also remember that Alain's Zard X would have been boosted by Zard Y's drought too. Though I do agree that Ash-Gren is above regular megas. Perhaps downscaling megas from Ash Greninja's feat would work?
You can also add that it's later implied that Diantha's Mega-Gardevoir was holding back against Ash-Greninja, which would explain why she didn’t use Moonblast instead of spamming Shadow Ball.
 
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High 7-A

High 7-A
| 6-C

High 7-A
| 6-C | 6-C

Large Mountain level+
(comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club) | Island level (Far stronger than before. Should be comparable to other Gigantamax pokemon such as Centiscorch)

Large Mountain Class

Large Mountain Class
| Island Class

Large Mountain Class
| Island Class | Island Class

Large Mountain level+
(comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club)

Large Mountain level+ (Can tank hits from other fully evolved pokemon) | Island level (Can take hits from other mega evolved Pokemon) | Island level (Far stronger than before. Should be comparable to other Gigantamax pokemon such as Centiscorch)

LS:
Class M (should be superior to Brock's Happiny) | Class M
Class M
(should be superior to Brock's Happiny) | Class M | Class T (superior to the likes of Machamp)

Speed:
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc)
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc) | FTL (faster than before)
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc) | FTL (faster than before) | FTL


Marrowak:

Only ap with thick club reaches 6-C, not dura

Pikachu: ill edit him myself

i prepared the text already
aight let's roll out. This is the rough draft of all things to copypaste
 
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Toe to toe is an exaggeration imo, Ash-Gren lost that fight and Steven's Metagross was able to keep up with Mega Zard in its base form. Also remember that Alain's Zard X would have been boosted by Zard Y's drought too. Though I do agree that Ash-Gren is above regular megas. Perhaps downscaling megas from Ash Greninja's feat would work?
Ash-Greninja literally only "lost" becasue Ash himself fainted since they did not master the form yet. And Greninja managed to overpower Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball after they briefly entered the completed form, and damage it, though Ash passed out moments later from the strain which caused them to stop the battle. And Gardevoir did used a moonblast which Greninja tanked just fine

As for Steven and Alain, they barely fought at base at all. However, Mega Charizard X survived a meteor mash from Metagross just fine and both continued fighting until the battle was interrupted with neither having the advantage

For Zard Y VS Zard X, while yes, Alain's Zard flamethrower was also boosted by drought, Base Charizard still blocked a full power boosted heat wave from Trevor's Zard Y with just a tail splash. It also easily dodged a Dragon Tail from Zard Y, so it makes sense that Alain's Charizard > Trevor's Mega Charizard Y

Supporting feat for that would also be that Base Charizard took a draco meteor from Mega Garchomp relatively unscathed, and then he one shotted it with Dragon Claw when he Mega Evolved
 
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Ash-Greninja literally only "lost" becasue Ash himself fainted since they did not master the form yet. And Greninja managed to overpower Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball after they briefly entered the completed form, and damage it, though Ash passed out moments later from the strain which caused them to stop the battle. And Gardevoir did used a moonblast which Greninja tanked just fine
Later in the episode, when Team Rocket captures Diantha's Gardevoir, Diantha orders her Gardevoir to stop restraining, and she went from being unable to break TR's restraints to shattering them easily. So it seems like Diantha was holding back against Ash.
 
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btw can we change the icon for Alakazam in the verse page? Not only is official art considered to have more priority over fanart but also, wth is that satanic stuff bro? Like there ain't no satanism and dark magic in pokemon, why does he have a pentagram at his feet?
 
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Ash-Greninja literally only "lost" becasue Ash himself fainted since they did not master the form yet.
No one said otherwise.
And Greninja managed to overpower Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball after they briefly entered the completed form, and damage it
See above.
That's Base Gardevoir against Base Greninja. And he didn’t tanked anything. He dodged the blast but the force of the explosion knocked him against the tree.
 

DragonGamerZ913

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Ash-Gren lost that fight
Ash-Greninja was honestly smacking Mega Gardevoir around, it landed a couple of hits while Gardevoir couldn't touch it, especially when it got the shuriken on its back and its Water Shuriken flat-out overpowered Gardevoir's Shadow Ball. Ash only lost because he passed out due to a lack of mastery of the form.
 
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guys i need your help and opinion.

Do we have any way to scale psychics to class M/T?

Cause Metagross scales at least physically for brushing off Brock's Happiny but what about the others?
 
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Ash-Greninja was honestly smacking Mega Gardevoir around, it landed a couple of hits while Gardevoir couldn't touch it, especially when it got the shuriken on its back and its Water Shuriken flat-out overpowered Gardevoir's Shadow Ball. Ash only lost because he passed out due to a lack of mastery of the form.
Exactly
 
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gen 1 is fully done, except someone needs to nerf all second stages LS back where it belongs
 

GyroNutz

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As for Steven and Alain, they barely fought at base at all. However, Mega Charizard X survived a meteor mash from Metagross just fine and both continued fighting until the battle was interrupted with neither having the advantage
Steven's Metagross completely stopped Zard X's flamethrower with Psychic, and continued to have the upper hand throughout the entire fight despite the type disadvantage when it mega evolved. It took a direct hit from Blast Burn, Zard X's strongest attack, without a scratch. Steven's Megagross is 100% superior to Alain's Zard X.

Others have already covered the Ash-Gren vs Mega Garde fight, but however you look at it, there's no sign that Mega Garde was close to losing.
 

GyroNutz

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gen 1 is fully done, except someone needs to nerf all second stages LS back where it belongs
Make sure your grammar + formatting is correct, I've noticed some missing capital letters + spaces. Not major, but still
 
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Make sure your grammar + formatting is correct, I've noticed some missing capital letters + spaces. Not major, but still
alright then but could you deal with the 1st stage LS? cause i made it class M and it is supposed to be whatever it is. Basically, please revert them
 
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it seems someone is already doing it. Idk if it is you Gyro updating the LS or not but thanks
 
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anyways i am done for today. I'll update more tommorow, if anyone wants to/can help i would be happy if you helped out.
I will need help with LS doe
 

GyroNutz

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it seems someone is already doing it. Idk if it is you Gyro updating the LS or not but thanks
I'm going through the gen 4 profiles rn

Neither was Greninja, and again, he "lost" only because Ash passed out, not becuase Greninja was ko-ed by her
They were over-exerting themselves and passed out because of it. And as people have said above, all signs point towards Diantha holding back.
 
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I'm going through the gen 4 profiles rn


They were over-exerting themselves and passed out because of it. And as people have said above, all signs point towards Diantha holding back.
thanks mate.
I'll deal with gen 6-7 either today or tommorow
 

GyroNutz

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Would the "At least 7-A, likely High 7-A" Trainers become "At least High 7-A, likely 6-C"?
Could honestly take a separate look at trainer scaling tbh. But the gap between the previous 7-A feat and baseline High 7-A is similar to the gap between the new High 7-A feat and baseline 6-C, so it should be fine in principle.
 
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So which scaling chain that was agreed for? The option 1 or the option 2? Because i don't have much motivation reading the whole thread lel
 
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