- 16,960
- 4,860
Well, here we are again folks, with everything that is good in the next chapter of Ben 10 VSBW revisions. Yaaaaaaay.
Anyways, it's been a while since my last Ben 10 thread, but yes, we are here once again for a new revision thread, and as I’m sure you can see from the title, you already know the drill of where this is heading. So, let’s get right to it.
To summarize and debrief why we're here again with a new thread, last year I made a downgrade thread attempting to address issues I had with the state of the Ben 10 verse at the time, as a follow up to the thread Zamasu_chan had made himself that was addressing this first. His thread was addressing both Alien Xs scaling and the Cosmology at the same time and it got cluttered with different topics at once, which the discussion then got moved to this thread, but then it died out due to Zamasu’s inactivity. I revived the topic with my own downgrade thread to first talk about Ben 10’s Cosmology specifically. After a significant amount of back and forth discussion on the matter, my thread in its attempt to downgrade the Cosmology was eventually rejected.
After my thread finished, I specified that I would then make a separate thread at some point later to address issues I had with Alien X specifically. I’m revisiting this topic because the recent arguments I see justifying Alien X’s tier I find very problematic, don’t agree with them, and think they should be reviewed yet again under a new lens. The points Zamasu already raised against this last time appear to be very reasonable too, the only reason the discussion on this was dropped was because the person making them became inactive at the time, and lost interest. Which doesn't defeat said arguments. So im bringing them back. However, I never got the chance to make this thread sooner because of my own inactivity from then to…pretty much now. But since I’m (at least somewhat) back to being active now, the time for said thread to be made is also now.
So the purpose of this thread is now to follow up on addressing the issues with Alien X’s scaling like I said I would. Just like before, this thread here will be piggybacking off of points Zamasu already made about this, while adding in some of my own thoughts.
So let’s dive right into this.
The Chronosapien Timebomb is rated “at most” 2-A & the Chrono Navigator is 2-A / Possibly 1-B for having the power of nuking the whole Ben 10 Multiverse / Cosmology. With Alien X being > them, he’s also 1-B as of now.
So when you first look at this, this seems like very solid reasoning for scaling Alien X's power above them, right? Except, when you look at the actual deeper context behind this, not just on a surface level, it should be easy to see why this is problematic. Zamasu in his original thread already raised a bunch of points against this, so I’ll just start by quoting his arguments first.
As you can see, we have several things to re-examine here. But the overall point here should be clear. The context behind Alien X's “Greatest power” statements don't refer to his actual raw power, but purely his abilities. Abilities that wouldn’t scale to your Attack Potency. And some of these claims are being taken to the highest level interpretation possible when said evidence for them doesn't quite match up.
Firstly, this. Like Zamasu previously explained, Alien X can't do “anything” and everything. When the Annihilarrgh was destroying the universe, Ben tried getting Serena and Bellicus to let him use Alien X to stop it from doing that, but they both straight up confirm that it's too late for Alien X to stop the Annihilarrgh. Then Ben asks them if Alien X is able to fix the problem. Serena, one of Alien X's main sources of power, responds to him by saying Alien X can do many things, so long as both she and Bellicus agree to doing it.
Key words: many things. Not anything.
This point gets supported further when Ben confirms he was too late to save the universe from being destroyed and, as we learn later on, was forced to make a whole new universe, a replica of the old one. Ben needing to create a copy of the universe demonstrates Alien X's limitations, such as not being able to stop the universe's on-going destruction and not remaking it in the exact manner it previously was. Otherwise, doing this would not have been a requirement.
No
I've seen this response brought up often as a counterpoint when discussing Alien X's popular Universe Recreation feat. I firmly see this as headcanon with little to no basis to it. Why?
When we see the Annihilarrgh activate to commence with destroying the universe, it releases a dark-purple destroying wave that spans from itself. Upon releasing it, it quickly destroys the earth, then outer space and then everything it spreads over in every direction, except for Alien X, who is left in the void that gets left behind in the waves destruction.
But when Ben arrives inside Alien X to speak with Serena and Bellicus, we immediately see the Annihilarrgh's dark-purple destroying wave still commencing with the process of destroying the universe. Multiple dark-purple ring shaped waves appear behind Ben, then around Serena & Bellicus, that all span and combine together to destroy the universe.
We literally see and hear this process going on, point blank, from inside Alien X. If one is going to claim that the universe had already been completely destroyed by this point, then explain this. Why would we still see the Annihilarrghs waves continue to expand and wipe out everything? Why else would the show bother animating this if the destruction supposedly already finished? Doing that, at that point, makes no sense and serves no purpose as an added detail, unless…the Annihilarrgh wasn’t finished doing what it was doing.
Not to mention, Ben himself even notices the process in the middle of it happening and asks:
He doesn’t ask if the universe was destroyed, but if it is being destroyed.
IS BEING destroyed means the process was still happening at that moment. For us to dismiss what the show goes through the effort in stating to us through the characters, and straight up showing to us clearly happening on screen through animating it, is ludicrous logic and a weak justification against an anti-feat / inconsistency.
Case end point, the universe’s destruction wasn’t finished, the Annihilarrgh was commencing with the process of destroying the universe, with no one being able to stop it. Not even Alien X, whose only alternative was to recreate what was getting destroyed. Even with being generous and somehow looking past this issue, 2 aspects of Alien X himself never state he can do anything in the first place, so it still suggests limitations to Alien X’s capabilities are present.
As a matter of fact, there is only one time ever in the show, to my knowledge, that Alien X is ever said to be able to “do anything”. And by only one character in the show, Azmuth. You’ll see in the very next section why Azmuths judgement on Alien X is completely irrelevant.
This point next. We are given statements on Celestialsapiens, like Alien X, having “omnipotence” & possessing the greatest power in the universe, from those like Azmuth, Paradox and Serena / Bellicus themselves.
As you can see, several statements on this matter of the “greatest power” are made. Except, the problem here, is that none of these statements are referring to raw power (Attack Potency) being the greatest power. We’re literally given context and clarification as to what each of these statements are talking about, every time they are brought up, and this said context doesn’t cover Alien X’s raw strength in any way. They’re talking about his abilities. His hax. Being able to change the nature of space and time and bringing your thoughts into reality are what the greatest power in the universe is, not having the greatest raw power.
“Change the very nature of space and time” = Space-Time Manipulation (Alteration)
“It is where ideas become real” = Reality Warping by making thoughts reality.
As well as the fact that, without any inference, Aggregor would have stolen the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien. Despite being a non-Celestialsapien and not physically as powerful as one, he was still considered “omnipotent” (pay attention to this point please because this will be brought up later as well for another issue)
And these clarifications are both made by someone with extensive knowledge on Celestialsapiens and one who literally IS an aspect of a Celestialsapien.
Because the very show itself gives that information directly to us? As was just explained, the context behind these statements is given to us, straight from the source(s). We don’t have to take details from the show and interpret them ourselves to determine what they mean on our own. It’s right there for us to see, point blank.
Serena/Bellicus & Paradox are the biggest in-universe sources of information for Celestialsapiens, closest things to W.o.G. right from in the show, specifying to us that making ideas become reality and altering the nature of space-time is what’s considered the greatest power in the universe. Not their raw power, not their strength, but these abilities. Each time we are given insight on Alien X’s power, this is what they specify along with it.
The only other character used as a source of information for Alien X is Azmuth, whos words would carry no weight compared to the aforementioned characters, since they are objectively far superior forms of judgement on Alien X than he is, and for self-explanatory reasons. Paradox has personally experienced and dealt with Celestialsapiens much longer than Azmuth (who’s never met one before that point AFAIK), and Serena/Bellicus ARE a part of Alien X. It is their powers they’re commenting on. Azmuth certainly wouldn’t know more than they would.
What I don’t even understand is what specific part of this context could even mean raw power? Honest genuine question, as I don’t understand or see given evidence to verify this, but just a lazily given generalization that it should refer to it and then handwaiving skepticism for that. We don’t do this for any other character or series on the site without next to always requiring solid clarified evidence, feats more preferably. Assuming a Celestialsapiens raw power gets covered by these statements is something that’s never suggested in the show and takes a lot more assumptions to argue for rather than just taking the context for what it is and as it is presented.
Also, Bonus point: I was rewatching scenes from Alien Force while searching for the evidence to link and found this. When we’re introduced to Serena and Bellicus after Ben uses Alien X for the first time, they say this to him:
This is interesting, because Serena and a Bellicus didn’t even initially consider themselves to be the most powerful being ever during Alien X’s introduction, but ONE of the most powerful beings (being also being pluralized) from the looks of this. That would further suggest that they’re giving the implication of other beings in the universe existing that could rival them, setting the precedent that they’re not superior to literally everything in raw power. Just something interesting I thought I should point out.
This scan or databook entry that cites Alien X having unlimited powers doesn’t say he has unlimited power, but power(S). “Powers” here is pluralized here to represent a number of capabilities. In this context, this speaks to Alien X’s set of abilities. As in him having an unlimited or vast amount of abilities and the ability to bring thoughts into reality. Which is speaking about Alien X’s hax. Abilities =/= raw power as a lot of us here should already know. How this also got equated to cover physical raw strength is beyond me.
Just as already pointed out before also, when someone has the ability to make their thoughts reality, then they can imagine that as being able to have the potential to have unlimited abilities, depending on your imagination & what that allows.
“It is the source of the universe’s greatest power. It is where ideas become real.”
Paradox’s own statement on Alien X gives us the context right here. The greatest power is turning thoughts into reality with imagination, not having raw strength.
Based on…what? I saw this point raised before and I’m failing to see how this is really a counter argument. If this meant actual raw power, the scan would just straight up say “Unlimited Power” instead of pluralizing it to specify a set of abilities. Or it would say “Unlimited Strength”. It’s possible and not difficult to clarify what you mean with the right terms, if that’s actually what you meant. If the text fails to convey the correct terminology for what it’s argued to mean in a certain context, then it’s just not good evidence and likely means something else. Pointing that out to correct it isn’t nitpicking, rather that those making this argument aren’t providing sufficient enough evidence to match the actual claims they’re making.
Also want to briefly mention that this scan comes from a Ben 10 DVD database on Alien X, which while fine as acceptable evidence, should be a reminder on its level of canonicity when compared to the actual shows material.
And this leads me to the next point.
I also noticed this scan that was posted a while back to push the idea of Alien X having limitless raw power. This wasn’t brought up before, but there are problems with this as well.
The first problem is one I’ve called out before, so nothing new, but I’ll be doing it again. This particular scan, the only specific piece of evidence out of this that even mentions Alien X having limitless power, is a social media post and/or comment. Some of you already know where I’m going with this.
Social media responses you see on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc etc to answer fan questions are almost never allowed as acceptable evidence for upgrades here, ever. Not without giving damning evidence at the very least that the verse’s author(s) or creator(s) uses social media as their official “out-of-series” platform to give serious answers to fan questions that their series doesn’t already answer. Majority of the time, actual official interviews (when it’s the interviewers job to ask authors questions about their series and get feedback) is the more acceptable form of evidence when it comes to this. Otherwise, social media is generally disregarded as bad evidence in attempts to upgrade a character or series, especially by drastic levels like this. We even have this written and outlined in our editing rules page, and for a reason:
So as you can see, using social media as evidence for revisions, rather than information from the actual source material in-universe, is extremely scrutinized and must meet a number of minimum checkpoints to be considered passable. Ben 10 threads have a history with using this type of evidence for revisions, so this is naturally a concern.
After some back and forth in my previous thread, some raised the point that as long as social media posts from the creators support what’s done in the series, they should be passable to use as evidence, since they’re backing up what the series establishes (not the biggest fan of this, but sure?). This is also noted on the editing rules page as well. That’s why this time, I have a little bit more to argue with on why this is still a problem here, which leads me to the second problem.
If you look at the statement made for Alien X in the screenshot, you’ll notice that this is not even something stated by any of Ben 10’s creators. This is a post made by Cartoon Network, on their social media (or website?), done to promote the Ben 10 Ultimate Alien series at that time by giving a short promo of S1E16 of UA, “Forge of Creation”. Let’s break this down.
First of all, Cartoon Network is simply only a tv network that airs shows like Ben 10 on their channel/streaming services. While I argue adamantly against using social media as evidence, I would at the very least see the logic in accepting statements made by authors who hold actual authority over their fictions, since it’s their series they work on. But that doesn’t seem to even be the case here when it’s not any author making this statement, but a tv network. Unless im missing something, Cartoon Network has absolutely no level of authority whatsoever over the series. Not the shows source material or its context like a creator could have. So this shouldn’t even be evidence.
Second, the purpose & context of this comment by CN puts into question the level of seriousness behind what they’re saying. As I mentioned, this short statement appears to have been made only for promotional purposes to promote Ultimate Alien. “Watch more Ben 10 Ultimate Alien on Cartoon Network” is…as blatant as it gets on that. “Tapping into the limitless power of Alien X” appears to have been said only as an episode description to reference the “Forge of Creation” episode of UA when Ben, Professor Paradox and the others travel to the Forge of Creation to stop Aggregor from obtaining the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien. Which is literally the plot of said episode. In other words, CNs statement here is just shortly describing what the plot of the episode is while promoting the show. I would highly doubt CN would be giving a serious clarification about Alien X’s power with this when they’re only promoting the show they are airing on their network, and doing just that.
And finally, even if by some chance that I’m wrong on this, that CN does have a level of authority over the series and we can use their statements, why would this be “new evidence” to then prove Alien X physically upscales above everything in the Ben 10 verse, like the Timebomb or Navigator? Cartoon Network briefly describing the episode’s events can just be them parroting what was already established in-universe in the show, about a Celestialsapiens abilities being the greatest power in the universe and Aggregor threatening to tap into those abilities, not suggesting some other context like Alien X being physically superior to everything in raw power. And if it was suggesting that, then I would just argue that the scan and Cartoon Network contradicts the show & it should be disregarded. “Limitless power” is never, at any point, ever actually said in the show in the first place. That only comes from this “out-of-universe” comment from CN rather than being stated in-universe by any of the actual characters. The opposite effect is what’s done far more if anything. What’s stated in-universe is Celestialsapiens having “the greatest power in the universe”, and context upon examination points much more to the greatest power not being a Celestialsapiens raw physical power, but their abilities, as it was explained why earlier. Again, we don’t have to use any details from the show to figure out the context behind this for ourselves. The context is given right to us, and straight from the horses mouth. By Paradox, an expert who’s dealt with Celestialsapiens a number of times & by Serena/Bellicus, 2 literal aspects and power sources of Alien X themselves commenting on their very own powers. Not to mention, the cartoon series is also primary canon and absolutely takes precedence over an out-of-universe social media comment here, especially one not even made by the shows creators but from Cartoon Network. So if we’re going to make exceptions of allowing social media statements for revisions here on our site, this shouldn’t be meeting the bare minimum criteria for said exception.
Point being, this “limitless power” scan shouldn’t be “new” evidence to add in to suggest Alien X’s AP scales above everything. Its suggestion on Alien X being physically stronger than everything in power, and not just abilities, is largely unfounded and isn’t a foundation built within the show. It shouldn’t even be acceptable as evidence to begin with when it’s not even something said by any creator of Ben 10 anyway. Either it’s just referring to Celestialsapiens abilities being superior like the show establishes already, or it’s contradictory and it’s not evidence at all.
There’s some other points I want to bring back up here as well.
So in Zamasu’s AX downgrade thread, the failsafe was brought up as one of the downgrading arguments since the failsafe didn’t select Alien X as a viable alien for Ben when faced with the Chronosapien Timebomb. The opposition then argued against this saying that the failsafe wouldn’t always select the alien Ben would need to fix any given situation he faces, and that it’s “NLF” to assume it would.
I’m not really understanding why this can be considered a No Limits Fallacy. Unless I’m misinterpreting the argument, the argument for the Omnitrix’s failsafe isn’t even that it’s perfect and would just give Ben the perfect alien to fix every & any predicament he’s in. The argument is simply that the failsafe would just give Ben the BEST Alien with the best chances of handling the given situation, so he doesn’t die. AN answer, but not a perfect flawless solution that would fix any problem without fail. Only the latter would be considered an actual NLF.
So while it would be obviously wrong to say the Omnitrix gives a perfectly flawless “way out” for Ben with his aliens, it also doesn’t take rocket science to figure out that you should go with the most powerful and capable alien in your arsenal to face the biggest metaphysical, destructive & existence ending threat you would be facing before you, if that Alien actually held the capabilities to stop it of course. So why wouldn’t Alien X just get chosen by the failsafe if the Omnitrix felt he had any chance against the Timebomb? It wouldn’t have just straight up switched to be in No Watch Ben’s possession if it felt it could end the threat itself.
There’s also the fact that, as previously mentioned, even if we dismiss this instance of the failsafe, the failsafe also didn’t choose Alien X when a big bang went off in Ben’s face, but the Omnitrix very much knew well enough to choose Feedback instead. Something not being perfect doesn’t dismiss the possibility of anti feats existing also.
This alien fusion is always a controversial point to talk about when discussing Alien X’s tier, but there’s a few things about this that need to be addressed and re-addressed too. Being frank, I don’t even agree with how the site treats fusion Aliens in general for a few reasons in and of itself, but that’s not the biggest issue with this that I want to address for this thread, so I’ll just be referencing what Zamasu already spoke about on this point for now.
Since the site wants to go with this notion on fusion aliens being physically weaker than the individual aliens who make them up, then Atomic X is yet another reason why Alien X’s scaling is a problem.
Just as Zamasu took the liberty of explaining before, whether or not Atomic X is considered to be as physically strong as Alien X, or is physically weaker than him, that should have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Atomic X should still very much be considered “Omnipotent” in the same way Celestialsapiens are. And why is that? Since the point being made here is that their abilities are what makes them considered omnipotent instead of their raw physical power, what further strengthens this argument is the fact that, as previously explained, Aggregor, who isn’t even a Celestialsapien and is not as physically strong as one, was going to take the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien had Ben and company not offered any interference, and he too was still considered “omnipotent” after the fact.
If someone like Aggregor, a non-Celestialsapien, can take the powers of one and still be considered “Omnipotent” with said powers, then there’s absolutely no reason why Atomic X, with more Celestialsapien DNA by virtue of literally being half of Alien X himself, can’t be considered the same thing.
This would go to show even more that raw power isn’t what makes Celestialsapiens hold the greatest power, but simply their abilities are considered to be that level, and that a Celestialsapiens said abilities also don’t get “depowered” when their DNA is fused with other alien beings. Or when their powers are used by non-Celestialsapiens.
Regardless of however you interpret this, Aggregor is proof that a Celestialsapiens “omnipotence” doesn’t get taken away when their powers are in another beings hands for any reason, and the very same thing should be applied to Atomic X too, even if his raw power isn’t as strong as Alien X’s by site rules on fusion aliens.
For several different laid out reasons, the evidence used to justify Alien X physically upscaling above the Timebomb, Chrono Navigator and everything in the verse with raw power to be 1-B is taken largely out of context and is just not sufficient enough proof to match the claim that he’s physically the strongest being in the universe. It’s been repeatedly explained what the context of this evidence actually means, and its isnt power / AP.
So Alien X should be downgraded to whatever the next suitable tier for him is. My guess is that would be 2-A because of his fear of recreating the Prime Universe.
Agree (7): @CurrySenpai, @Setsuna_tenma, @Dark_Soul20189, @Spectra_Schiffer, @Benimōru, @AKUTO123, @Pedonar
Disagree (27): @Firestorm808, @DarkDragonMedeus, @LordGriffin1000, @Reiner04, @Greenshifter, @Ghengiroo115, @zaraus, @OMNIVERSAL-KING, @MintyBoi1, @ProfectusInfinity, @Killerdrone123, @DonkeySlayer06, @Lynieryz, @LuffyRuffy46307, @SatellaTheWoE, @Robo432343, @Quantu, @AdamVhenJP, @Boyinluv2002, @DemonicDude, @Spectral69420 , @Electro7101, @Gendolfgg1, @Lovemovies14, @Ednaxel2, @Spilxson2, @Hellformer
Anyways, it's been a while since my last Ben 10 thread, but yes, we are here once again for a new revision thread, and as I’m sure you can see from the title, you already know the drill of where this is heading. So, let’s get right to it.
The Thread’s Purpose & Why We’re Here
To summarize and debrief why we're here again with a new thread, last year I made a downgrade thread attempting to address issues I had with the state of the Ben 10 verse at the time, as a follow up to the thread Zamasu_chan had made himself that was addressing this first. His thread was addressing both Alien Xs scaling and the Cosmology at the same time and it got cluttered with different topics at once, which the discussion then got moved to this thread, but then it died out due to Zamasu’s inactivity. I revived the topic with my own downgrade thread to first talk about Ben 10’s Cosmology specifically. After a significant amount of back and forth discussion on the matter, my thread in its attempt to downgrade the Cosmology was eventually rejected.
After my thread finished, I specified that I would then make a separate thread at some point later to address issues I had with Alien X specifically. I’m revisiting this topic because the recent arguments I see justifying Alien X’s tier I find very problematic, don’t agree with them, and think they should be reviewed yet again under a new lens. The points Zamasu already raised against this last time appear to be very reasonable too, the only reason the discussion on this was dropped was because the person making them became inactive at the time, and lost interest. Which doesn't defeat said arguments. So im bringing them back. However, I never got the chance to make this thread sooner because of my own inactivity from then to…pretty much now. But since I’m (at least somewhat) back to being active now, the time for said thread to be made is also now.
So the purpose of this thread is now to follow up on addressing the issues with Alien X’s scaling like I said I would. Just like before, this thread here will be piggybacking off of points Zamasu already made about this, while adding in some of my own thoughts.
So let’s dive right into this.
Alien X’s Tier & Why
To kick this off, let’s first examine why Alien X is rated the way he is. Alien X is currently being scaled above the Chronosapien Time Bomb and Chrono Navigator due to statements like these:- Possessing the greatest power in the universe
- Can do "anything"
- Having unlimited/limitless power
The Chronosapien Timebomb is rated “at most” 2-A & the Chrono Navigator is 2-A / Possibly 1-B for having the power of nuking the whole Ben 10 Multiverse / Cosmology. With Alien X being > them, he’s also 1-B as of now.
So when you first look at this, this seems like very solid reasoning for scaling Alien X's power above them, right? Except, when you look at the actual deeper context behind this, not just on a surface level, it should be easy to see why this is problematic. Zamasu in his original thread already raised a bunch of points against this, so I’ll just start by quoting his arguments first.
As you can see, we have several things to re-examine here. But the overall point here should be clear. The context behind Alien X's “Greatest power” statements don't refer to his actual raw power, but purely his abilities. Abilities that wouldn’t scale to your Attack Potency. And some of these claims are being taken to the highest level interpretation possible when said evidence for them doesn't quite match up.
"Can do anything"
Firstly, this. Like Zamasu previously explained, Alien X can't do “anything” and everything. When the Annihilarrgh was destroying the universe, Ben tried getting Serena and Bellicus to let him use Alien X to stop it from doing that, but they both straight up confirm that it's too late for Alien X to stop the Annihilarrgh. Then Ben asks them if Alien X is able to fix the problem. Serena, one of Alien X's main sources of power, responds to him by saying Alien X can do many things, so long as both she and Bellicus agree to doing it.
Key words: many things. Not anything.
This point gets supported further when Ben confirms he was too late to save the universe from being destroyed and, as we learn later on, was forced to make a whole new universe, a replica of the old one. Ben needing to create a copy of the universe demonstrates Alien X's limitations, such as not being able to stop the universe's on-going destruction and not remaking it in the exact manner it previously was. Otherwise, doing this would not have been a requirement.
"The universe was already destroyed by the Annihilarrgh, so there was nothing to stop"
No
I've seen this response brought up often as a counterpoint when discussing Alien X's popular Universe Recreation feat. I firmly see this as headcanon with little to no basis to it. Why?
When we see the Annihilarrgh activate to commence with destroying the universe, it releases a dark-purple destroying wave that spans from itself. Upon releasing it, it quickly destroys the earth, then outer space and then everything it spreads over in every direction, except for Alien X, who is left in the void that gets left behind in the waves destruction.
But when Ben arrives inside Alien X to speak with Serena and Bellicus, we immediately see the Annihilarrgh's dark-purple destroying wave still commencing with the process of destroying the universe. Multiple dark-purple ring shaped waves appear behind Ben, then around Serena & Bellicus, that all span and combine together to destroy the universe.
We literally see and hear this process going on, point blank, from inside Alien X. If one is going to claim that the universe had already been completely destroyed by this point, then explain this. Why would we still see the Annihilarrghs waves continue to expand and wipe out everything? Why else would the show bother animating this if the destruction supposedly already finished? Doing that, at that point, makes no sense and serves no purpose as an added detail, unless…the Annihilarrgh wasn’t finished doing what it was doing.
Not to mention, Ben himself even notices the process in the middle of it happening and asks:
He doesn’t ask if the universe was destroyed, but if it is being destroyed.
IS BEING destroyed means the process was still happening at that moment. For us to dismiss what the show goes through the effort in stating to us through the characters, and straight up showing to us clearly happening on screen through animating it, is ludicrous logic and a weak justification against an anti-feat / inconsistency.
Case end point, the universe’s destruction wasn’t finished, the Annihilarrgh was commencing with the process of destroying the universe, with no one being able to stop it. Not even Alien X, whose only alternative was to recreate what was getting destroyed. Even with being generous and somehow looking past this issue, 2 aspects of Alien X himself never state he can do anything in the first place, so it still suggests limitations to Alien X’s capabilities are present.
As a matter of fact, there is only one time ever in the show, to my knowledge, that Alien X is ever said to be able to “do anything”. And by only one character in the show, Azmuth. You’ll see in the very next section why Azmuths judgement on Alien X is completely irrelevant.
“Has the greatest power in the universe”
This point next. We are given statements on Celestialsapiens, like Alien X, having “omnipotence” & possessing the greatest power in the universe, from those like Azmuth, Paradox and Serena / Bellicus themselves.
As you can see, several statements on this matter of the “greatest power” are made. Except, the problem here, is that none of these statements are referring to raw power (Attack Potency) being the greatest power. We’re literally given context and clarification as to what each of these statements are talking about, every time they are brought up, and this said context doesn’t cover Alien X’s raw strength in any way. They’re talking about his abilities. His hax. Being able to change the nature of space and time and bringing your thoughts into reality are what the greatest power in the universe is, not having the greatest raw power.
“Change the very nature of space and time” = Space-Time Manipulation (Alteration)
“It is where ideas become real” = Reality Warping by making thoughts reality.
As well as the fact that, without any inference, Aggregor would have stolen the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien. Despite being a non-Celestialsapien and not physically as powerful as one, he was still considered “omnipotent” (pay attention to this point please because this will be brought up later as well for another issue)
And these clarifications are both made by someone with extensive knowledge on Celestialsapiens and one who literally IS an aspect of a Celestialsapien.
“Why would all references of “greatest power” only mean hax abilities? Why is it referring to that when there’s already a proof they aren’t just invincible in reality warping, but in raw power as well?”
Because the very show itself gives that information directly to us? As was just explained, the context behind these statements is given to us, straight from the source(s). We don’t have to take details from the show and interpret them ourselves to determine what they mean on our own. It’s right there for us to see, point blank.
Serena/Bellicus & Paradox are the biggest in-universe sources of information for Celestialsapiens, closest things to W.o.G. right from in the show, specifying to us that making ideas become reality and altering the nature of space-time is what’s considered the greatest power in the universe. Not their raw power, not their strength, but these abilities. Each time we are given insight on Alien X’s power, this is what they specify along with it.
The only other character used as a source of information for Alien X is Azmuth, whos words would carry no weight compared to the aforementioned characters, since they are objectively far superior forms of judgement on Alien X than he is, and for self-explanatory reasons. Paradox has personally experienced and dealt with Celestialsapiens much longer than Azmuth (who’s never met one before that point AFAIK), and Serena/Bellicus ARE a part of Alien X. It is their powers they’re commenting on. Azmuth certainly wouldn’t know more than they would.
What I don’t even understand is what specific part of this context could even mean raw power? Honest genuine question, as I don’t understand or see given evidence to verify this, but just a lazily given generalization that it should refer to it and then handwaiving skepticism for that. We don’t do this for any other character or series on the site without next to always requiring solid clarified evidence, feats more preferably. Assuming a Celestialsapiens raw power gets covered by these statements is something that’s never suggested in the show and takes a lot more assumptions to argue for rather than just taking the context for what it is and as it is presented.
Also, Bonus point: I was rewatching scenes from Alien Force while searching for the evidence to link and found this. When we’re introduced to Serena and Bellicus after Ben uses Alien X for the first time, they say this to him:
This is interesting, because Serena and a Bellicus didn’t even initially consider themselves to be the most powerful being ever during Alien X’s introduction, but ONE of the most powerful beings (being also being pluralized) from the looks of this. That would further suggest that they’re giving the implication of other beings in the universe existing that could rival them, setting the precedent that they’re not superior to literally everything in raw power. Just something interesting I thought I should point out.
“Has Unlimited Powers”
This scan or databook entry that cites Alien X having unlimited powers doesn’t say he has unlimited power, but power(S). “Powers” here is pluralized here to represent a number of capabilities. In this context, this speaks to Alien X’s set of abilities. As in him having an unlimited or vast amount of abilities and the ability to bring thoughts into reality. Which is speaking about Alien X’s hax. Abilities =/= raw power as a lot of us here should already know. How this also got equated to cover physical raw strength is beyond me.
Just as already pointed out before also, when someone has the ability to make their thoughts reality, then they can imagine that as being able to have the potential to have unlimited abilities, depending on your imagination & what that allows.
“It is the source of the universe’s greatest power. It is where ideas become real.”
Paradox’s own statement on Alien X gives us the context right here. The greatest power is turning thoughts into reality with imagination, not having raw strength.
“This is Nitpicking, this would still mean unlimited power in general”
Based on…what? I saw this point raised before and I’m failing to see how this is really a counter argument. If this meant actual raw power, the scan would just straight up say “Unlimited Power” instead of pluralizing it to specify a set of abilities. Or it would say “Unlimited Strength”. It’s possible and not difficult to clarify what you mean with the right terms, if that’s actually what you meant. If the text fails to convey the correct terminology for what it’s argued to mean in a certain context, then it’s just not good evidence and likely means something else. Pointing that out to correct it isn’t nitpicking, rather that those making this argument aren’t providing sufficient enough evidence to match the actual claims they’re making.
Also want to briefly mention that this scan comes from a Ben 10 DVD database on Alien X, which while fine as acceptable evidence, should be a reminder on its level of canonicity when compared to the actual shows material.
And this leads me to the next point.
“Has Limitless Power”
I also noticed this scan that was posted a while back to push the idea of Alien X having limitless raw power. This wasn’t brought up before, but there are problems with this as well.
The first problem is one I’ve called out before, so nothing new, but I’ll be doing it again. This particular scan, the only specific piece of evidence out of this that even mentions Alien X having limitless power, is a social media post and/or comment. Some of you already know where I’m going with this.
Social media responses you see on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc etc to answer fan questions are almost never allowed as acceptable evidence for upgrades here, ever. Not without giving damning evidence at the very least that the verse’s author(s) or creator(s) uses social media as their official “out-of-series” platform to give serious answers to fan questions that their series doesn’t already answer. Majority of the time, actual official interviews (when it’s the interviewers job to ask authors questions about their series and get feedback) is the more acceptable form of evidence when it comes to this. Otherwise, social media is generally disregarded as bad evidence in attempts to upgrade a character or series, especially by drastic levels like this. We even have this written and outlined in our editing rules page, and for a reason:
So as you can see, using social media as evidence for revisions, rather than information from the actual source material in-universe, is extremely scrutinized and must meet a number of minimum checkpoints to be considered passable. Ben 10 threads have a history with using this type of evidence for revisions, so this is naturally a concern.
“Social media comments should be fine to use as long as they back up what’s provided in the series”
After some back and forth in my previous thread, some raised the point that as long as social media posts from the creators support what’s done in the series, they should be passable to use as evidence, since they’re backing up what the series establishes (not the biggest fan of this, but sure?). This is also noted on the editing rules page as well. That’s why this time, I have a little bit more to argue with on why this is still a problem here, which leads me to the second problem.
If you look at the statement made for Alien X in the screenshot, you’ll notice that this is not even something stated by any of Ben 10’s creators. This is a post made by Cartoon Network, on their social media (or website?), done to promote the Ben 10 Ultimate Alien series at that time by giving a short promo of S1E16 of UA, “Forge of Creation”. Let’s break this down.
First of all, Cartoon Network is simply only a tv network that airs shows like Ben 10 on their channel/streaming services. While I argue adamantly against using social media as evidence, I would at the very least see the logic in accepting statements made by authors who hold actual authority over their fictions, since it’s their series they work on. But that doesn’t seem to even be the case here when it’s not any author making this statement, but a tv network. Unless im missing something, Cartoon Network has absolutely no level of authority whatsoever over the series. Not the shows source material or its context like a creator could have. So this shouldn’t even be evidence.
Second, the purpose & context of this comment by CN puts into question the level of seriousness behind what they’re saying. As I mentioned, this short statement appears to have been made only for promotional purposes to promote Ultimate Alien. “Watch more Ben 10 Ultimate Alien on Cartoon Network” is…as blatant as it gets on that. “Tapping into the limitless power of Alien X” appears to have been said only as an episode description to reference the “Forge of Creation” episode of UA when Ben, Professor Paradox and the others travel to the Forge of Creation to stop Aggregor from obtaining the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien. Which is literally the plot of said episode. In other words, CNs statement here is just shortly describing what the plot of the episode is while promoting the show. I would highly doubt CN would be giving a serious clarification about Alien X’s power with this when they’re only promoting the show they are airing on their network, and doing just that.
And finally, even if by some chance that I’m wrong on this, that CN does have a level of authority over the series and we can use their statements, why would this be “new evidence” to then prove Alien X physically upscales above everything in the Ben 10 verse, like the Timebomb or Navigator? Cartoon Network briefly describing the episode’s events can just be them parroting what was already established in-universe in the show, about a Celestialsapiens abilities being the greatest power in the universe and Aggregor threatening to tap into those abilities, not suggesting some other context like Alien X being physically superior to everything in raw power. And if it was suggesting that, then I would just argue that the scan and Cartoon Network contradicts the show & it should be disregarded. “Limitless power” is never, at any point, ever actually said in the show in the first place. That only comes from this “out-of-universe” comment from CN rather than being stated in-universe by any of the actual characters. The opposite effect is what’s done far more if anything. What’s stated in-universe is Celestialsapiens having “the greatest power in the universe”, and context upon examination points much more to the greatest power not being a Celestialsapiens raw physical power, but their abilities, as it was explained why earlier. Again, we don’t have to use any details from the show to figure out the context behind this for ourselves. The context is given right to us, and straight from the horses mouth. By Paradox, an expert who’s dealt with Celestialsapiens a number of times & by Serena/Bellicus, 2 literal aspects and power sources of Alien X themselves commenting on their very own powers. Not to mention, the cartoon series is also primary canon and absolutely takes precedence over an out-of-universe social media comment here, especially one not even made by the shows creators but from Cartoon Network. So if we’re going to make exceptions of allowing social media statements for revisions here on our site, this shouldn’t be meeting the bare minimum criteria for said exception.
Point being, this “limitless power” scan shouldn’t be “new” evidence to add in to suggest Alien X’s AP scales above everything. Its suggestion on Alien X being physically stronger than everything in power, and not just abilities, is largely unfounded and isn’t a foundation built within the show. It shouldn’t even be acceptable as evidence to begin with when it’s not even something said by any creator of Ben 10 anyway. Either it’s just referring to Celestialsapiens abilities being superior like the show establishes already, or it’s contradictory and it’s not evidence at all.
There’s some other points I want to bring back up here as well.
Omnitrix’s Failsafe
So in Zamasu’s AX downgrade thread, the failsafe was brought up as one of the downgrading arguments since the failsafe didn’t select Alien X as a viable alien for Ben when faced with the Chronosapien Timebomb. The opposition then argued against this saying that the failsafe wouldn’t always select the alien Ben would need to fix any given situation he faces, and that it’s “NLF” to assume it would.
I’m not really understanding why this can be considered a No Limits Fallacy. Unless I’m misinterpreting the argument, the argument for the Omnitrix’s failsafe isn’t even that it’s perfect and would just give Ben the perfect alien to fix every & any predicament he’s in. The argument is simply that the failsafe would just give Ben the BEST Alien with the best chances of handling the given situation, so he doesn’t die. AN answer, but not a perfect flawless solution that would fix any problem without fail. Only the latter would be considered an actual NLF.
So while it would be obviously wrong to say the Omnitrix gives a perfectly flawless “way out” for Ben with his aliens, it also doesn’t take rocket science to figure out that you should go with the most powerful and capable alien in your arsenal to face the biggest metaphysical, destructive & existence ending threat you would be facing before you, if that Alien actually held the capabilities to stop it of course. So why wouldn’t Alien X just get chosen by the failsafe if the Omnitrix felt he had any chance against the Timebomb? It wouldn’t have just straight up switched to be in No Watch Ben’s possession if it felt it could end the threat itself.
There’s also the fact that, as previously mentioned, even if we dismiss this instance of the failsafe, the failsafe also didn’t choose Alien X when a big bang went off in Ben’s face, but the Omnitrix very much knew well enough to choose Feedback instead. Something not being perfect doesn’t dismiss the possibility of anti feats existing also.
Atomic X
This alien fusion is always a controversial point to talk about when discussing Alien X’s tier, but there’s a few things about this that need to be addressed and re-addressed too. Being frank, I don’t even agree with how the site treats fusion Aliens in general for a few reasons in and of itself, but that’s not the biggest issue with this that I want to address for this thread, so I’ll just be referencing what Zamasu already spoke about on this point for now.
Since the site wants to go with this notion on fusion aliens being physically weaker than the individual aliens who make them up, then Atomic X is yet another reason why Alien X’s scaling is a problem.
Just as Zamasu took the liberty of explaining before, whether or not Atomic X is considered to be as physically strong as Alien X, or is physically weaker than him, that should have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Atomic X should still very much be considered “Omnipotent” in the same way Celestialsapiens are. And why is that? Since the point being made here is that their abilities are what makes them considered omnipotent instead of their raw physical power, what further strengthens this argument is the fact that, as previously explained, Aggregor, who isn’t even a Celestialsapien and is not as physically strong as one, was going to take the abilities of a baby Celestialsapien had Ben and company not offered any interference, and he too was still considered “omnipotent” after the fact.
If someone like Aggregor, a non-Celestialsapien, can take the powers of one and still be considered “Omnipotent” with said powers, then there’s absolutely no reason why Atomic X, with more Celestialsapien DNA by virtue of literally being half of Alien X himself, can’t be considered the same thing.
This would go to show even more that raw power isn’t what makes Celestialsapiens hold the greatest power, but simply their abilities are considered to be that level, and that a Celestialsapiens said abilities also don’t get “depowered” when their DNA is fused with other alien beings. Or when their powers are used by non-Celestialsapiens.
Regardless of however you interpret this, Aggregor is proof that a Celestialsapiens “omnipotence” doesn’t get taken away when their powers are in another beings hands for any reason, and the very same thing should be applied to Atomic X too, even if his raw power isn’t as strong as Alien X’s by site rules on fusion aliens.
Conclusion
For several different laid out reasons, the evidence used to justify Alien X physically upscaling above the Timebomb, Chrono Navigator and everything in the verse with raw power to be 1-B is taken largely out of context and is just not sufficient enough proof to match the claim that he’s physically the strongest being in the universe. It’s been repeatedly explained what the context of this evidence actually means, and its isnt power / AP.
So Alien X should be downgraded to whatever the next suitable tier for him is. My guess is that would be 2-A because of his fear of recreating the Prime Universe.
Agree (7): @CurrySenpai, @Setsuna_tenma, @Dark_Soul20189, @Spectra_Schiffer, @Benimōru, @AKUTO123, @Pedonar
Disagree (27): @Firestorm808, @DarkDragonMedeus, @LordGriffin1000, @Reiner04, @Greenshifter, @Ghengiroo115, @zaraus, @OMNIVERSAL-KING, @MintyBoi1, @ProfectusInfinity, @Killerdrone123, @DonkeySlayer06, @Lynieryz, @LuffyRuffy46307, @SatellaTheWoE, @Robo432343, @Quantu, @AdamVhenJP, @Boyinluv2002, @DemonicDude, @Spectral69420 , @Electro7101, @Gendolfgg1, @Lovemovies14, @Ednaxel2, @Spilxson2, @Hellformer
Last edited by a moderator:
