Big Alien X Downgrade (Wait…haven't we been here before?)

[DivineAura44]

Alright, have a ton of responses to respond back to.

First up, @Ghengiroo115



How so if I may ask? Also, from what I’m noticing, wouldn’t AX getting physically overpowered by Galactic Gladiator further strength my argument on this?



You’re kind of missing the point of the Annihilarrgh part of this. It’s to convey the argument that Alien X’s reality warping is capable of doing some things, like recreating a universe and replicating it, but not being able to stop an on-going universe destroying wave. To knock against the “can do anything” point, suggesting even Alien X’s reality warping has its limits on what he can make happen.

Alien X isn’t inferior to the Annihilaarghs 2-A feat. We see it didn’t harm him in the slightest.



I’m not seeing why the latter quote would suggest this? Serena specifying that was her re-specifying Alien X’s deliberative nature of being capable of many things, but needing his personalities to agree to do them. Plus at first, neither of them appeared to have any concern about the universe getting destroyed, so this does appear as a cop-out.




What does being / not being bound by time have to do with Alien X being superior to the Timebomb in raw power?



Not really? I thought this might’ve been brought up and it doesn’t necessarily work like this.

For one thing, Alien X’s power can be already seen as superior for it being a lot more versatile. Changing the nature of space-time and how it operates across reality is certainly a superior way of manipulating it than to just destroy it.

Alien X also doesn’t have time manipulation in the way of being able to reverse time like Clockwork can, anyway. Even his page as it currently stands reflects that. All Celestialsapiens space-time manipulation is specified to do is change the nature of it. Cross-scaling different forms of hax applications is not a thing.

Even with the benefit of the doubt, this would at best just mean Alien X’s hax operates on a 1-B scale, not give him 1-B attack potency.



Yes, but if the Omnitrix has to go through the effort in attaching itself to a version of Ben that the Timebomb isn’t targeting in order to survive, that would suggest that it wouldn’t be able to survive against the bomb in any other scenario.



Feedback was brought up to showcase more of Alien X’s limitations. Also, Feedback specifically stopped the Big Bang from creating the time stream with his energy absorbing and redirecting abilities, not with raw physicals. There’s a difference between someone having greater abilities than someone else and someone having a greater version of the same abilities.

But the failsafe isn’t the most important problem here, so this doesn’t concern me that much.



Going to address the DNA stuff at the end of the reply.



Um….when have we considered Alien X to have the abilities of all the other aliens in the Omnitrix? I’ve never heard of this. This is also not something even listed currently on Alien X’s page also.

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@ByArrow



To clarify, I’m arguing that Alien X should have his physical stats be downgraded from 1-B entirely, as in him not being 1-B in raw attack potency and physicals.

His abilities can probably stay at operating on a 1-B level in hax potency.



I’m guessing 2-A would be the next suitable tier for him for having the feat of recreating the Prime Universe, which the site treats as 2-A at the moment (I’ll update the OP to specify this)
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@Reiner04



I’m arguing that these statements specifically refer to hax precisely because of what the characters themselves explain the greatest power to be whenever they make those claims. That isn’t semantics or me making my own assumptions, it’s all laid out in the show for us. That’s the point.

If Paradox says “the universe’s greatest power”, and then follows it up with “it’s where ideas become real”, then that’s saying making ideas become real is the greatest power in the universe. The context is given right here.
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@Greenshifter



Mental gymnastics? Your point here Green enters the territory of being a False Equivalence.

Your point makes specific and very clear reference to a character being physically capable of blowing up their verses cosmology. A straight up power feat, and that character directly comparing their strength to be inferior to another’s. That context clear cut specifies a comparison of raw power.

None of that kind of context is contextualized here in Alien X’s case, when the very characters who speak on behalf of Alien X’s power being “the greatest power in the universe” clarify what they mean by that. Paradox specified ideas becoming real to be the greatest power, and Serena specified altering the nature of space-time to be a power greater than any other in the universe, right afterwards.



It’s a broad term because Reality Warping is a broad versatile power with a large number of different uses and applications.

As I said above, cross scaling different applications of haxes doesn’t work. Alien X uses his imagination to make thoughts reality, the Chrono Navigator tears reality apart via space-time destruction.

Scaling one above the other would also require you to prove Alien X can use his thoughts to strengthen himself by that extent, a feat that he also doesnt have.
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@OMNIVERSAL-KING



This point seems to be about the whole “AX DNA cut through the Contimelia barrier” thing. I’ll address this as the very last thing layer below since it seems to be an important aspect of this discussion.



You’re missing the point for this. The point in mentioning this was to demonstrate that there are limits to Alien X’s abilities and that he can’t literally do “anything” since he was confirmed to be incapable of reversing the Annihilaarghs destruction wave and was forced to recreate what got destroyed.

I also already addressed that even if we ignore this entirely, Serena and Bellicus never state Alien X can do “anything” in the first place, just “many things”. Azmuth is the only character who makes that claim, and his word is objectively an inferior form of judgement compared to them.

Overall, the point for this isnt that Alien X is inferior to the Annihilarrgh (he’s not), it’s that there are limits set to his capabilities.



This has absolutely nothing to do with scaling one’s tier and attack potency. This is just Atomic X lacking a resistance to an ability.



I see what you are saying on this, but this sounds like an attempt to ignore something that straight up happened.

This argument only works by going off of the assumption of Alien X being above the CTB in the first place and treating that as factual to go off of this being a PIS, when it happening can also be interpreted as the Omnitrix recognizing it can’t survive and it hops to NW Ben, a version of Ben that wouldn’t be targeted by the bomb, in order to survive.
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@Spilxson2



Not really, no. The big problem here is that Aggregor is living proof that a Celestialsapiens “Omnipotence” doesn’t get removed or depowered when their abilities are in another beings hands, or when Celestialsapiens DNA gets mixed.

Despite not being considered as physically powerful as a Celestialsapien, Aggregor was still going to be considered “Omnipotent” in the exact same way. How would you explain this?

And based on what I’m seeing regarding the DNA part of this, I’m really not a fan of how selective we are being when it comes to applying a Celestialsapiens DNA (but I’ll address this in more detail later)
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@Forthegood




From what I’m seeing the Annihilarrghs 1-B portion only comes from when it’s used inside that void, not something it can naturally do outside of that.
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Alright, so to end this response, I’m now aware of the whole “Skurd using Celestialsapien DNA to breech the Contimelias barrier” point being used as a justification for Alien X’s tier (I wasn’t before). I can add this to the OP later if necessary, but I have a number of problems with this.

First off, why would this be treated as an AP feat? Is the notion that Skurd got its physical raw stats augmented by Alien X’s DNA? Why would being given DNA correlate to a physical power boost? What would prevent me from just claiming the DNA being added to Skurd gave it the hax component of being able to bypass the barrier rather than using the strange notion of “DNA added = strength boost” ?

Second of all, as I mentioned before, I am really not a fan of how we are selectively applying Celestialsapien DNA and when not applying it to suit the narrative of scaling. We can treat Skurd getting Alien X’s DNA (a small amount actually since only Skurds arm got infused with it) as a feat, but dismiss it when beings like Atomic X or Aggregor obtain it? One or the other should be picked and then stick with it. If you can take Skurd being somehow augmented by a small amount of Alien X DNA, then beings who would literally have at least half of Alien X infused with them should absolutely get the same treatment, not getting dismissed because one or both can bring anti feats against the scaling.

Thirdly, not to mention, even if this scaling holds up, why and how exactly can this actually scale? The Big Bang isn’t destroying the time stream, but creating it, jumpstarting it in the void. This is not a destruction feat, but a creation feat. How can you….”survive” creation being made, exactly?

The fact that Kukui has to respond to all of this by themselves in a timely manner is clearly an issue, whether or not you disagree with the arguments.

 

[Reiner04]

I’m arguing that these statements specifically refer to hax precisely because of what the characters themselves explain the greatest power to be whenever they make those claims. That isn’t semantics or me making my own assumptions, it’s all laid out in the show for us. That’s the point.

If Paradox says “the universe’s greatest power”, and then follows it up with “it’s where ideas become real”, then that’s saying making ideas become real is the greatest power in the universe. The context is given right here.

As i said before, being capable doing anything you want is a broad term not limited to cringe vsbw specific reality warping hax. He can think and whole cosmology would be gone can comes under this and thus AP. Creating Universe with thought is AP as well as his omnipotence. So in all, I don't see why "Infinite power", "Greatest power" "Unlimited power", "Omnipotence" wouldn't scale to his general statistics aka AP. So Agree to disagree. Not upto arguing semantics.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

As i said before, being capable doing anything you want is a broad term not limited to cringe vsbw specific reality warping hax. He can think and whole cosmology would be gone can comes under this and thus AP.

Yes, but I can also argue that you have this backwards as a reverse burden of proof. Because “capable of doing anything” (which I also argued against being the case too) can be so broad, it also wouldn’t mean it has to refer to AP either. That’s why it’s a context that needs to be proven sufficiently to be the case, something that I dont see this evidence meeting the standard of.

Thinking something gone by using imagination to make thoughts reality isn’t AP in the same vein of applying force or energy to an attack. Let alone scaling to your durablity or physical strength.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I agree with DivineAura and Reiner


However, i am overall neutral leaning towards disagree for now

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ok. I’ll update the votes accordingly

 

[Reiner04]

Yes, but I can also argue that you have this backwards as a reverse burden of proof. Because “capable of doing anything” (which I also argued against being the case too) can be so broad, it also wouldn’t mean it has to refer to AP either. That’s a context that needs to be proven sufficiently to be the case, something that I dont see this evidence meeting the standard of.

Thinking something gone by using imagination to make thoughts reality isn’t AP.

I see omnipotence linked to all his statistics rather than what you're trying to limit it to. As argued before he was said to hold infinite power (infinite power as in reality warping is cringe), limitless power (again AP), greatest power (go for whatever). I see his omnipotence scaling to general statistics unless you prove it is not. Saying that paradox thousands years before said that "He can do anything, he's greatest power in the Universe" means he just have reality warping and all statements ever used that called him having "Limitless power", "Infinite power", "Greatest power", "Omnipotence", "destroy all of existence " stands for only hax "Because paradox once said he can do anything " is nothing but meh imo. As for that, I don't think you will be convincing me with same argument as in OP stated billions times. So try convincing others with that.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Goku beats Saitama due to having kids with Emilia's father aka the great spirit Veldora, and for those reasons feedback fra

I read that fanfic somewhere.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well in any case, we are at the point where we both have made our cases on what we think the evidence’s interpretation means. To prevent a circular cycle of repeating the same thing, we should probably wait for others to chime in and see where this goes for now.

 

[Reiner04]

As for that, I don't think you will be convincing me with same argument as in OP stated billions times. So try convincing others with that.

Agree to disagree. Not upto arguing semantics

That's basically what i said. Waiting for firestorm and getting thread result is all that needed now.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

How so if I may ask? Also, from what I’m noticing, wouldn’t AX getting physically overpowered by Galactic Gladiator further strength my argument on this?

If their hax was massively above their physical strength then it would’ve been as simple as Alien X or Galactic Gladiator using their abilities a single time to win the fight. However instead the Galactic Gladiator didn’t do that (despite having more than enough experience to know if it would work or not) and Ben believed the only way to win was to confuse the Galactic Gladiator.

The only time the Galactic Gladiator overpowered Alien X in any way after he started fighting back was by growing in size, which is solely an amp on the user’s own strength. The two were portrayed as equals while he was normal sized.

You’re kind of missing the point of the Annihilarrgh part of this. It’s to convey the argument that Alien X’s reality warping is capable of doing some things, like recreating a universe and replicating it, but not being able to stop an on-going universe destroying wave. To knock against the “can do anything” point, suggesting even Alien X’s reality warping has its limits on what he can make happen.

Alien X isn’t inferior to the Annihilaarghs 2-A feat. We see it didn’t harm him in the slightest.

Ah I see, it was just to argue that Azmuth’s statement shouldn’t be taken literally. That’s fair.

I’m not seeing why the latter quote would suggest this? Serena specifying that was her re-specifying Alien X’s deliberative nature of being capable of many things, but needing his personalities to agree to do them. Plus at first, neither of them appeared to have any concern about the universe getting destroyed, so this does appear as a cop-out.

Since it was a response to Ben saying “but Alien X can fix this, right?” I assumed that she was suggesting Alien X could fix the universe if she and Bellicus agreed on it. It’s kinda a weak argument though now that I think about it so we can just drop it.

What does being / not being bound by time have to do with Alien X being superior to the Timebomb in raw power?

It doesn’t, but it does mean that the CTB shouldn’t be able to affect Alien X the same way it didn’t affect Professor Paradox. As such that means the Omnitrix turning into Alien X would’ve protected Ben, so using the failsafe as an argument against Alien X’s strength doesn’t really work imo. At most it would just be a limitation for the failsafe.

Not really? I thought this might’ve been brought up and it doesn’t necessarily work like this.

For one thing, Alien X’s power can be already seen as superior for it being a lot more versatile. Changing the nature of space-time and how it operates across reality is certainly a superior way of manipulating it than to just destroy it.

Alien X also doesn’t have time manipulation in the way of being able to reverse time like Clockwork can, anyway. Even his page as it currently stands reflects that. All Celestialsapiens space-time manipulation is specified to do is change the nature of it. Cross-scaling different forms of hax applications is not a thing.

Even with the benefit of the doubt, this would at best just mean Alien X’s hax operates on a 1-B scale, not give him 1-B attack potency.

It comes back to the “he can do anything” and “omnipotent” statements. While Azmuth may not be the 100% best source of info on Celestialsapiens, he is still very knowledgeable on both the Omnitrix aliens and the structure of the Omniverse so it’s clear that the intention of that quote was “he can do anything I could imagine”. This would logically mean he can do anything that the Chronosapiens can do, as their DNA is within the Omnitrix. Professor Paradox’s statement is even more blatant as he’s an even more trustworthy source on space-time matters.

Feedback was brought up to showcase more of Alien X’s limitations. Also, Feedback specifically stopped the Big Bang from creating the time stream with his energy absorbing and redirecting abilities, not with raw physicals. There’s a difference between someone having greater abilities than someone else and someone having a greater version of the same abilities.

I think you’re assuming all my points are specifically to argue that Alien X scales to something physically. For my first reply I was operating under the assumption that his physicals didn’t scale to his hax as I was initially neutral on the topic. The argument is much the same as before, being that Alien X scales above Feedback from the “he can do anything” and “omnipotent” statements.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I’ll be responding to the Skurd stuff in a moment. My webpage reloaded partway through and I lost everything I wrote lol

 

[Firestorm808]

Alright, so to end this response, I’m now aware of the whole “Skurd using Celestialsapien DNA to breech the Contimelias barrier” point being used as a justification for Alien X’s tier (I wasn’t before). I can add this to the OP later if necessary, but I have a number of problems with this.

First off, why would this be treated as an AP feat? Is the notion that Skurd got its physical raw stats augmented by Alien X’s DNA? Why would being given DNA correlate to a physical power boost? What would prevent me from just claiming the DNA being added to Skurd gave it the hax component of being able to bypass the barrier rather than using the strange notion of “DNA added = strength boost” ?

Busy atm. I will go over the rest later.

Did Skurd get its physical raw stats augmented by Alien X’s DNA? Why would being given DNA correlate to a physical power boost?

Yes. Skurd feeds on DNA and can replicate it, growing limbs from that DNA. If he turned into a Tetramand arm (which it did prior), it would hit with the same force as one. I'm pretty sure an Adult Chromastone would have more physical AP than an Adult Human.

What would prevent me from just claiming the DNA being added to Skurd gave it the hax component of being able to bypass the barrier rather than using the strange notion of “DNA added = strength boost” ?

We don't have a clear showing or statements of hax occurring, so we don't assume hax happened.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’ll be responding to the Skurd stuff in a moment. My webpage reloaded partway through and I lost everything I wrote lol

Yeah take your time. I’m a little busy atm so I’ll respond in a bit, and yeah for some reason the page reloading keeps happening to me too, making responding to stuff take even longer time

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

I'm sorry, but there really is no logical explanation for these articles you wrote. Disagree. The reason he beat Galactic Gladiator is because he was more determined. Ben also stated this during the fight.
During the events of Maltraunt, Ben was the only one who had a chance to fix this because the other Celestialsaphiens didn't care.
The fusion called Atomic X has a very small part of the powers of Alien X. We learned that Atomic X has a single personality, but it was Serena and Bellicus who gave Alien X his powers.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Did Skurd get its physical raw stats augmented by Alien X’s DNA? Why would being given DNA correlate to a physical power boost?

Yes. Skurd feeds on DNA and can replicate it, growing limbs from that DNA. If he turned into a Tetramand arm (which it did prior), it would hit with the same force as one. I'm pretty sure an Adult Chromastone would have more physical AP than an Adult Human.

What would prevent me from just claiming the DNA being added to Skurd gave it the hax component of being able to bypass the barrier rather than using the strange notion of “DNA added = strength boost” ?

We don't have a clear showing, mention, or statements of hax occurring, so we don't assume hax happened.

This is basically what I was gonna say, however I also wanted to add that acquiring DNA is consistently shown to boost a character's stats in Ben 10 even outside of Skurd.

Second of all, as I mentioned before, I am really not a fan of how we are selectively applying Celestialsapien DNA and when not applying it to suit the narrative of scaling. We can treat Skurd getting Alien X’s DNA (a small amount actually since only Skurds arm got infused with it) as a feat, but dismiss it when beings like Atomic X or Aggregor obtain it? One or the other should be picked and then stick with it. If you can take Skurd being somehow augmented by a small amount of Alien X DNA, then beings who would literally have at least half of Alien X infused with them should absolutely get the same treatment, not getting dismissed because one or both can bring anti feats against the scaling.

Osmosian absorption and Biomnitrix fusions work differently. Osmosians have a tenth of the power of the thing they absorb which is still enough for Aggregor to be considered "omnipotent". Atomic-X is supposedly half Alien X yet both his unimpressive showings and a lack of an "omnipotent" statement show that he's much weaker. Since these two methods work so differently you can't really compare any method of Celestialsapien DNA usage to each other.

Thirdly, not to mention, even if this scaling holds up, why and how exactly can this actually scale? The Big Bang isn’t destroying the time stream, but creating it, jumpstarting it in the void. This is not a destruction feat, but a creation feat. How can you….”survive” creation being made, exactly?

If Ben can be killed by creation being made, then someone or something can survive it too.

Also the Big Bang isn't a "creation feat" in a literal sense. It's an immense burst of energy that then causes the creation of the Timestream. That's why the Annihilaargh destroys the universe when it's set off within it, and also why Feedback can absorb and contain its energy. A more literal creation feat would be something like Alien X's feat.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Not agreeing or disagreeing yet but after reading the OP, there is stuff I agree with and find some of the counterpoints unconvincing. However I'm not finished looking over all the arguments, just wanted to get my current stance in at the moment.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Neutral leaning towards disagree fra

 

[Lynieryz]

Disagree FRA

 

[Greenshifter]

Can all of you collaborate on a Discord server or something before wasting my time yet again.

Actually sure, I should have done this a long time ago… @Kukui I have a Ben 10 Powerscaling server with the best Ben 10 scalers in the world in it. Care to join?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree FRA

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If their hax was massively above their physical strength then it would’ve been as simple as Alien X or Galactic Gladiator using their abilities a single time to win the fight. However instead the Galactic Gladiator didn’t do that (despite having more than enough experience to know if it would work or not) and Ben believed the only way to win was to confuse the Galactic Gladiator.

This would tie into my point, however. AX and Galactic Gladiator were considered equals, physically speaking, until the latter increased his size to gain the upper hand. If confusing Gladiators thoughts was believed to be the only method of winning, that should demonstrate their abilities or “Omnipotence” being virtually even.

I’m also not seeing the point of saying they would just use their abilities once to win. They both would have access to the same powers.

It doesn’t, but it does mean that the CTB shouldn’t be able to affect Alien X the same way it didn’t affect Professor Paradox. As such that means the Omnitrix turning into Alien X would’ve protected Ben, so using the failsafe as an argument against Alien X’s strength doesn’t really work imo. At most it would just be a limitation for the failsafe.

I mean I get that, but the problem here that I’m getting confused on now is the tiering of the Timebomb. How exactly is the Timebombs 2-A feat treated here on the site? Do we not treat it as a raw power feat (like it using an energy blast to nuke the whole multiverse)? Or is it just something like time erasure? Want to be sure I understand the current treatment of it.

It comes back to the “he can do anything” and “omnipotent” statements. While Azmuth may not be the 100% best source of info on Celestialsapiens, he is still very knowledgeable on both the Omnitrix aliens and the structure of the Omniverse so it’s clear that the intention of that quote was “he can do anything I could imagine”. This would logically mean he can do anything that the Chronosapiens can do, as their DNA is within the Omnitrix. Professor Paradox’s statement is even more blatant as he’s an even more trustworthy source on space-time matters.

I see what your saying, but tue issue with this though is that connecting Azmuths “can do anything” comment with his expertise on the Omnitrix and its aliens wouldn’t mean Alien X would suddenly have all of their abilities on hand to use. The other possible assertion can be that Azmuth is just not a credible source to speak on for Celestialsapiens powers.

What’s even more of an issue is that, even as we speak, Alien X here on the site isn’t even accepted with having their powers. His page currently doesn’t reflect this idea, so even the supporters arguing against this don’t share this belief.

I think you’re assuming all my points are specifically to argue that Alien X scales to something physically. For my first reply I was operating under the assumption that his physicals didn’t scale to his hax as I was initially neutral on the topic. The argument is much the same as before, being that Alien X scales above Feedback from the “he can do anything” and “omnipotent” statements.

Okay. But as I mentioned above, Alien X having the particular powers of the other aliens in the Omnitrix is not something we have accepted here on the site. Unless that gets changed, it’s not really a viable point to argue with on why he should upscale above their haxes to have stronger versions of them.

Osmosian absorption and Biomnitrix fusions work differently. Osmosians have a tenth of the power of the thing they absorb which is still enough for Aggregor to be considered "omnipotent". Atomic-X is supposedly half Alien X yet both his unimpressive showings and a lack of an "omnipotent" statement show that he's much weaker. Since these two methods work so differently you can't really compare any method of Celestialsapien DNA usage to each other.

Actually, interesting point (I forgot about the 1/10th limitation for Osmosians)

If your suggesting that the DNA usage differs because Osmosians only gain 1/10th of the power they’re taking, that should be even more of a reason why Atomic X should be getting the same treatment. This is canonically establishing that the Osmosian method is not just different, but inferior.

The Omnitrix grants the full value of the DNA and alien abilities. And as you said before, applying DNA would empower whoever is getting it applied to them. By virtue of that, Atomic X should absolutely be considered Omnipotent as well, or none of the Celestialsapien fusions should. It has to be one or the other.

The only point of contention for Atomic X is his “poor showings” and that only gets drawn to him lacking a resistance because of the fused DNA being altered.

If Ben can be killed by creation being made, then someone or something can survive it too.

Also the Big Bang isn't a "creation feat" in a literal sense. It's an immense burst of energy that then causes the creation of the Timestream. That's why the Annihilaargh destroys the universe when it's set off within it, and also why Feedback can absorb and contain its energy. A more literal creation feat would be something like Alien X's feat.

Unless I’m mistaken, it was addresssed not too long ago that the Big Bang isn’t an actual physical release of energy but something entirely non-physical since it’s just expanding space-time. This would be exactly that but just on a significantly higher scale since this is considered 1-B (which would also explain why the universe gets destroyed since “new” space-time is getting expanded into overwriting the old)

“Tanking” a big bang isn’t supposed to be considered anything because there’s no offensive force applied to it. It’s causing a creation event of space-time.

Yes. Skurd feeds on DNA and can replicate it, growing limbs from that DNA. If he turned into a Tetramand arm (which it did prior), it would hit with the same force as one. I'm pretty sure an Adult Chromastone would have more physical AP than an Adult Human.

So in this scenario, Skurd was able to replicate the strength of a 1-B alien through a facet of its DNA? Jumping dozens of degrees of infinity in power?

If we also go with this, then this should also strengthen the point I made that a Celestialsapiens DNA can’t be weakened or depowered by other beings. Aggregor & now Skurd proving that if we go with this.

We don't have a clear showing or statements of hax occurring, so we don't assume hax happened.

Besides the barrier getting breeched? Is there a video or clip we can see Skurd doing it to examine it?

I'm sorry, but there really is no logical explanation for these articles you wrote. Disagree. The reason he beat Galactic Gladiator is because he was more determined. Ben also stated this during the fight.
During the events of Maltraunt, Ben was the only one who had a chance to fix this because the other Celestialsaphiens didn't care.

This part of your response has practically nothing to do with I wrote in the OP.

The fusion called Atomic X has a very small part of the powers of Alien X. We learned that Atomic X has a single personality, but it was Serena and Bellicus who gave Alien X his powers.

You are missing the point. There are direct instances of Celestialsapien DNA & powers getting fused or taken by other beings and those said powers don’t get weakened. Aggregor, and now Skurd if your going with the notion that he can replicate their DNA and their power.

Atomic X being this sole exception of only having a small portion of AXs powers when he’s literally half of Alien X gets contradicted by the former. How do you explain that?

 

[Greenshifter]

Atomic X being this sole exception of only having a small portion of AXs powers when he’s literally half of Alien X gets contradicted by the former. How do you explain that?

RNA vs DNA, I still don’t get how the time bomb is an issue when it’s EE and Ben 10K likely knew exactly what was coming (I say likely because of the Hypertimeline complicating things).

 

[Firestorm808]

So in this scenario, Skurd was able to replicate the strength of a 1-B alien through a facet of its DNA? Jumping dozens of degrees of infinity in power?

If we also go with this, then this should also strengthen the point I made that a Celestialsapiens DNA can’t be weakened or depowered by other beings. Aggregor & now Skurd proving that if we go with this.

What are you talking about? Replicating/copying DNA 1 to 1 to make a limb (basically cloning) is different from splicing and absorbing fractions of DNA.

Besides the barrier getting breeched? Is there a video or clip we can see Skurd doing it to examine it?

You are claiming that Skurd used Hax on the barrier. Hax is not the default assumption. What is your justification and precedent that Hax occurred?

 

[Guruguru69]

RNA vs DNA, I still don’t get how the time bomb is an issue when it’s EE and Ben 10K likely knew exactly what was coming (I say likely because of the Hypertimeline complicating things).

Appeal to Probability

 

[Ghengiroo115]

This would tie into my point, however. AX and Galactic Gladiator were considered equals, physically speaking, until the latter increased his size to gain the upper hand. If confusing Gladiators thoughts was believed to be the only method of winning, that should demonstrate their abilities or “Omnipotence” being virtually even.

From what I understand it’s the opposite. The Galactic Gladiator believed that the best way to get the upper hand on Alien X was to increase his size. If his hax was truly that much stronger then why would he think making himself larger and simply grabbing Alien X was most effective?

I’m also not seeing the point of saying they would just use their abilities once to win. They both would have access to the same powers.

Well technically it might not be “once” if they were clashing with energy beams or something, but my point is that if their hax are massively superior to their physicals then they wouldn’t be trading blows or physically growing in size.

I mean I get that, but the problem here that I’m getting confused on now is the tiering of the Timebomb. How exactly is the Timebombs 2-A feat treated here on the site? Do we not treat it as a raw power feat (like it using an energy blast to nuke the whole multiverse)? Or is it just something like time erasure? Want to be sure I understand the current treatment of it.

Tbh I’m not actually sure, but I would assume it’s just time erasure.

I see what your saying, but tue issue with this though is that connecting Azmuths “can do anything” comment with his expertise on the Omnitrix and its aliens wouldn’t mean Alien X would suddenly have all of their abilities on hand to use. The other possible assertion can be that Azmuth is just not a credible source to speak on for Celestialsapiens powers.

What’s even more of an issue is that, even as we speak, Alien X here on the site isn’t even accepted with having their powers. His page currently doesn’t reflect this idea, so even the supporters arguing against this don’t share this belief.

I feel like he should have their powers, but if we’re strictly going by the wiki then I’ll drop that argument. I’d much rather focus on the Skurd stuff and the Galactic Gladiator fight.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Actually, interesting point (I forgot about the 1/10th limitation for Osmosians)

If your suggesting that the DNA usage differs because Osmosians only gain 1/10th of the power they’re taking, that should be even more of a reason why Atomic X should be getting the same treatment. This is canonically establishing that the Osmosian method is not just different, but inferior.

The Omnitrix grants the full value of the DNA and alien abilities. And as you said before, applying DNA would empower whoever is getting it applied to them. By virtue of that, Atomic X should absolutely be considered Omnipotent as well, or none of the Celestialsapien fusions should. It has to be one or the other.

The only point of contention for Atomic X is his “poor showings” and that only gets drawn to him lacking a resistance because of the fused DNA being altered.

Tbh I don’t actually have an issue with Atomic-X being “omnipotent” like Skurd and Aggregor if there’s no contradictions and if the wiki chooses to not use this statement. I don’t really care either way, and I don’t believe it affects my argument. Either Celestialsapien stuff works differently for different things (meaning they can’t be compared) or they all are similar in power.

However I will note that Omnitrix fusions don’t apply to the rule of “more DNA = stronger being”. In most cases there’s an already existing being taking DNA to grow stronger. In the case of the malfunctioned Omnitrix fusions and the Biomnitrix fusions, they’re merging the DNA together and then transforming the user based on that. Think of it kinda like cross-breeding.

Unless I’m mistaken, it was addresssed not too long ago that the Big Bang isn’t an actual physical release of energy but something entirely non-physical since it’s just expanding space-time. This would be exactly that but just on a significantly higher scale since this is considered 1-B (which would also explain why the universe gets destroyed since “new” space-time is getting expanded into overwriting the old)

“Tanking” a big bang isn’t supposed to be considered anything because there’s no offensive force applied to it. It’s causing a creation event of space-time.

Is that first part referring to the real-life Big Bang?

In the case of Ben 10 it’s treated as a physical release of energy, as seen by how it kills Ben and how Feedback can absorb/redirect it.

 

[ShionAH]

Can you guys let Firestorm argue?

Kukui shouldnt need to argue with 5 different people. I dont know thoughr maybe he wants to

 

[Forthegood]

Can you guys let Firestorm argue?

Kukui shouldnt need to argue with 5 different people. I dont know thoughr maybe he wants to

Everyone has different arguments on this matter and it seems like Firestorm is busy so there's that.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Everyone has different arguments on this matter and it seems like Firestorm is busy so there's that.

I think it’s also mainly just me and Firestorm right now, so hopefully that isn’t too much of a hassle for Kukui.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Can you guys let Firestorm argue?

Kukui shouldnt need to argue with 5 different people. I dont know thoughr maybe he wants to

Everyone's arguments are different, and it's only 2 people rn

 

[CurrySenpai]

I think it's just nicer to give people space and try and space out multiple arguments if possible, even better if you just get people who are arguing on the side of disagreement together in say a DM so you can organize a singular couple of messages that address Kukui.

Regardless, I agree. I have always thought that Alien X's "universe" based ratings being scaled to his physicals were a bit unjustified, but I never really wanted to touch this verse for many reasons, nor do I really have the time to. You can count me as agreeing with the premise of this thread.

Also, Fortnite slams all of Ben 10 just sayin.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Someone was talking about Alien X winning because he has more determination or smth above.

like i said, only 2 actual people making arguments

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I always had a doubt, when Alien X will rebuild the Universe is it affecting the other dimensions or just 1 Universe?

 

[Reiner04]

I always had a doubt, when Alien X will rebuild the Universe is it affecting the other dimensions or just 1 Universe?

Universe is currently a collection of dimensions, so all of it. As for if it affected entire multiverse considering mad ben timeline had a changed logo of mister smoothies- is just possible estimation.

 

[Greenshifter]

Can you guys let Firestorm argue?

Why are you assuming Firestorm is more capable than them? He’s capable sure, but why more capable than say @Ghengiroo115?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Why are you assuming Firestorm is more capable than them? He’s capable sure, but why more capable than say @Ghengiroo115?

I appreciate the gas but I’m not that good lol

 

[Greenshifter]

I appreciate the gas but I’m not that good lol

You are, I never said you’re more capable btw. I just said that it was bold to claim only Firestorm’s arguments mattered and everyone else should shut up.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Why are you assuming Firestorm is more capable than them? He’s capable sure, but why more capable than say @Ghengiroo115?

I don't think Shion was? They very clearly said it was because Kukui was arguing with 5 people, not cause others were more capable

 

[Greenshifter]

I don't think Shion was? They very clearly said it was because Kukui was arguing with 5 people, not cause others were more capable

He defaulted to Firestorm, he should have let us decide who we were going to let compile arguments and debate with Kukui if 5 people is somehow too much for Kukui to debate against (he constantly handled more than that in the past)

 

[CurrySenpai]

He defaulted to Firestorm, he should have let us decide who we were going to let compile arguments and debate with Kukui if 5 people is somehow too much for Kukui to debate against (he handled more than that in the past)

I doubt he could have thought that far ahead (not an insult btw) you just see multiple people arguing all at once and the default is to tell people to let one person go at a time, regardless this conversation is a bit derailing, so I'm sure we can just wait a bit.