Big Alien X Downgrade (Wait…haven't we been here before?)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can we cut it out with the derailing comments? If you’re not refuting Kukui, mentioning something new, or FRAing then just don’t send a message, 5 pages is absurd.

Last thing we need is this thread ending up in Staff Discussions.

Thank you. Was going to say something about this real quick, 5 pages in less than 2 days is ridiculous and I’ve nicely asked multiple times to only respond when necessary so I’m not overwhelmed with responding back and this doesn’t get pointlessly long of a thread.

I’m already thinking about moving this to staff-only and letting just Reiner and maybe someone else argue for the against side so that staff, who’s votes are the ones actually needed here, can evaluate this smoothly. I don’t want to have to get it to that point.

Anyway, I’ll be responding to comments soon as I can, just at work now.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Can we cut it out with the derailing comments? If you’re not refuting Kukui, mentioning something new, or FRAing then just don’t send a message, 5 pages is absurd.

Last thing we need is this thread ending up in Staff Discussions.

Tbf I think those people were just voting their disagreement in a meme-y way, but yeah in general we should focus more.

 

[Reiner04]

Thank you. Was going to say something about this real quick, 5 pages in less than 2 days is ridiculous and I’ve nicely asked multiple times to only respond when necessary so I’m not overwhelmed with responding back and this doesn’t get pointlessly long of a thread.

I’m already thinking about moving this to staff-only and letting just Reiner and maybe someone else argue for the against side so that staff, who’s votes are the ones actually needed here, can evaluate this smoothly. I don’t want to have to get it to that point.

Anyway, I’ll be responding to comments soon as I can, just at work now.

Actually, i have nothing to say more than what I have said already. So if u have anything to add on u can and if firestorm wants to say something he can. I for last and real, taking myself off of this thread. So I'm afraid I won't be responding anymore further, regardless of what you have to say, I don't think it would change my mind. Also that I've become kind of uninterested in discussing scaling of same character billion of times. So I am fine with whatever the conclusion maybe.

 

[Electro7101]

I disagree with the CRT & will explain below using a small summary

CRT: "AX scales (NOT) above the the C-NAV & the CTB"

First

1. Didn't stop the Annihilargh (destruction),​

BUT he both has [causality manipulation]() & PHYS scales above by tanking & Recreating the Universe,​

a Feat equivalent to the End of series;​

2. Made an exact replica:​

Yet the intention was to be more impressive,​

for if he just turned back time you would be saying he just did & didn't scale to Universal tier​

Second

3 & 4. The greatest power isn’t raw strength but it's making thoughts reality.​

Yet it is raw STR too despite the fusions not scaling to AX​

As celestialsapiens only follow the Multiverse preservation act​

& since the moment of its first destruction in non linear time both Universe_Prime A & B exist in a stable time loop relative to each other​

& are both covered by the act​

& by AX scaling above the aliens that dealt w. the weapons​

Third

5. Failsafe didn't trigger because no aliens could deal with it therefore etc etc etc​

Yet clockwork from the Prime Omnitrix effectively dealt w. it, so it stands to reason that if the Failsafe did trigger it would have turned BEN to clockwork​

So perhaps the prime Watch was resisting & trying to preserve & cling to BEN & thus accidentally jumped ships, invalidating parameters for the Failsafe​

or could tell BEN was going to be ok in the Future & thus counted the CTB as incap see OS predicting Vilgax & conveniently unlocking aliens for the Tick & Fungi​

& that UA arbitrarily saved BEN from Mind death implying sentience if not outright stated by Azmuth via "it is the genuinity of your sacrifice that mattered for the Omnitrix, an act more rare than" etc etc, which would explain Enemy of my Frenemy ​

6. AX wasn't chosen to tank the Annihilargh (creation)​

BUT AX was used to break the dimensional barrier designed to tank the Annihilargh​

In Fact, I argue the Failsafe has Immeasurable SPD as it triggered when the Big Bang started reversed inflation & moved backwards in time w. SPD​

w. the Dimensional barrier opening again​

I mention too that the intention throughout the series was for AX to scale at the top of the cosmology, & characters that BEN deals with, with just enough room to add more if the writers wanted

 

[Lynieryz]

Regardless of the outcome of this thread, shouldn't there be a rule regarding this matter? This is probably one of the most spammed crt topics.

 

[Arceus0x]

Thank you. Was going to say something about this real quick, 5 pages in less than 2 days is ridiculous and I’ve nicely asked multiple times to only respond when necessary so I’m not overwhelmed with responding back and this doesn’t get pointlessly long of a thread.

I’m already thinking about moving this to staff-only and letting just Reiner and maybe someone else argue for the against side so that staff, who’s votes are the ones actually needed here, can evaluate this smoothly. I don’t want to have to get it to that point.

Anyway, I’ll be responding to comments soon as I can, just at work now.

gonna mention this rq but like, pages have been revised to only hold 40 or so messages, meaning that in reality we have 176 messages now which means by old page standards we wouldn't even be at page 2. Seems pretty normal for a controversial thread.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Reminder that the main question right now is whether or not something can scale to the Big Bang physically. If something can then the downgrade can’t go through since Alien X already physically scales to the highest tier possible. If something can’t then we basically go back to square one.

 

[zaraus]

I wonder why this took so long?

 

[Reiner04]

Reminder that the main question right now is whether or not something can scale to the Big Bang physically. If something can then the downgrade can’t go through since Alien X already physically scales to the highest tier possible. If something can’t then we basically go back to square one.

Well just to correct u over this. Annhilargh bigbang has been described as an attack when feedback launched it on Maltruant to destroy him. And the kind of bigbangs that are destructive/offensive in nature scales to all aspects it creates as noted down on our pages. Even non physical aspects. Since Alien X scales above Annhilargh energy, feedback bigbang attack or the entire bigbang on point blank range, won't harm him. That's basically the reason feedback scales to it. Unless on argue that Feedback launching it will make it any different than it launching itself. More or less why it's inside the unreachable barrier of those capable of creating technologies that scales to 1-B.

 

[Forthegood]

I wonder why this took so long?

op is probably busy in real life give him a chance and chill

 

[Forthegood]

The fact that Feedback was so durable that he could absorb so much energy without exploding

 

[zaraus]

op is probably busy in real life give him a chance and chill

I didn't write it for malicious purposes.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Well just to correct u over this. Annhilargh bigbang has been described as an attack when feedback launched it on Maltruant to destroy him. And the kind of bigbangs that are destructive/offensive in nature scales to all aspects it creates as noted down on our pages. Even non physical aspects. Since Alien X scales above Annhilargh energy, feedback bigbang attack or the entire bigbang on point blank range, won't harm him. That's basically the reason feedback scales to it. Unless on argue that Feedback launching it will make it any different than it launching itself.

Oh no I agree that it should scale, I just wanted to remind people of the main focus rn

The fact that Feedback was so durable that he could absorb so much energy without exploding

Verse-wide 1-B upgrade

Feedback is just HIM, Fodder X cannot compete

​

True!

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I feel like Ben 10's powerscwling is slowly falling apart
Anyways, tier 11 FRA

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Reminder that the main question right now is whether or not something can scale to the Big Bang physically. If something can then the downgrade can’t go through since Alien X already physically scales to the highest tier possible. If something can’t then we basically go back to square one.

Yeah I had meant to let everyone know this sooner, but was too busy in between to inform people in the thread.

I am preparing responses to everything else from before as said, but I’m waiting before posting them until the thread I made about Big Bangs gets resolved first. Since the main question right now is whether Big Bang feats can scale to physicals or not, there’s no real point in discussing the other points here about Alien X’s statements and whatnot until the former is cleared up, since most of the thread hinges on that.

To set the record straight here, I don’t agree with this apparent standard for “unnatural” big bangs. I’m not even understanding why this standard is a thing as it makes no sense, or where this standard even came from. I know I haven’t been on the site in a while, but no thread that I’ve looked through has brought this up and explained it. The closest thing to a discussion about this I found was this thread, which was pretty divided and it never got finished. So my side thread about this is to try and examine this now.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Btw what if he just side stepped from the dimensions that were present to tank the anhilargh
He is unbound from time right? Then he could have just moved in a temporal/spatial dimension that the universe cant destroy
For eg if we consider a paper placed on our hand to be a 2D universe and every drawing to be the people living in it, if we burn the paper and simply move our hand away from the paper we would not be harmed

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Btw what if he just side stepped from the dimensions that were present to tank the anhilargh
He is unbound from time right? Then he could have just moved in a temporal/spatial dimension that the universe cant destroy
For eg if we consider a paper placed on our hand to be a 2D universe and every drawing to be the people living in it, if we burn the paper and simply move our hand away from the paper we would not be harmed

occahm's razor

 

[Lovemovies14]

Disagree with the downgrade. Alien X and Celestialsapiens are established both in and out of universe to be the most powerful beings in the franchise.

 

[Reiner04]

Btw what if he just side stepped from the dimensions that were present to tank the anhilargh
He is unbound from time right? Then he could have just moved in a temporal/spatial dimension that the universe cant destroy
For eg if we consider a paper placed on our hand to be a 2D universe and every drawing to be the people living in it, if we burn the paper and simply move our hand away from the paper we would not be harmed

There's no dimension that Annhilargh can't destroy or affect, it's scales to whole cosmology and already taking place in dimension w/o time-space, so Alien X being outside of time doesn't really matter, it would have affected contemilias who are 5th dimensional and would have replaced previous timestream with new one as per Maltruant. It created all dimensions, time, space and beyond. He also scales above extra dimensional barrier which upscales from Annhilargh. Not to mention what u are saying already debunks OP's argument that Celestial sapiens can't survive timeline destruction lmao.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Disagree with the downgrade. Alien X and Celestialsapiens are established both in and out of universe to be the most powerful beings in the franchise.

This is not enough of a reason to disagree. My thread is literally giving the argument that “most powerful” doesn’t mean physical power in context, that’s what part of this discussion is about.

If all your saying is you don’t agree just by parroting “he’s the most powerful”, then you haven’t read the thread in full.

There's no dimension that Annhilargh can't destroy or affect, it's scales to whole cosmology and already taking place in dimension w/o time-space

Unless I misread the justification wrong, the Annihilaarghs destruction and creation levels are not the same. It has 2-A destruction and 1-B creation, and only when its within that void as the page even specifies right now.

 

[Reiner04]

Unless I misread the justification wrong, the Annihilaarghs destruction and creation levels are not the same. It has 2-A destruction and 1-B creation, and only when its within that void as the page even specifies right now.

Annhilargh scales to 1-B in dimension of void and 2-A within the Universe, What happens in Dimension of Void affects all of existence due to higher cause and effect that goes beyond regular cause and effect of the timestream, the timeloop with which Maltruant was bound.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Annhilargh scales to 1-B in dimension of void and 2-A within the Universe, What happens in Dimension of Void affects all of existence due to higher cause and effect that goes beyond regular cause and effect of the timestream, the timeloop with which Maltruant was bound.

Wait a minute. Are you saying the 1-B rating is because of the nature of the Dimension of Void allowing the Annihilaargh to do that?

 

[Reiner04]

This is not enough of a reason to disagree. My thread is literally giving the argument that “most powerful” doesn’t mean physical power in context, that’s what part of this discussion is about.

If all your saying is you don’t agree just by parroting “he’s the most powerful”, then you haven’t read the thread in full.

This seems to be coming off bit agressive there. Just because PPL saying that current justification is enough in their view and do not agree with the arguments you're making doesn't mean they're here to "Parrot" things or that they haven't read your OP and posting blindly. I myself don't think that arguments are enough to downgrade for reasons I have provided which is the same "parroting", whether you think that I'm right or wrong or i think you're right or wrong doesn't really matter at the end of the day. I've seen some ppls saying "I always felt their Universal stuff shouldn't scale to their physical". We all are with our opinions and want to push it forward more than others. So don't just treat them like pure idiots:/

 

[CurrySenpai]

I can’t really blame Kukui though, the point of this thread isn’t that Alien X can’t recreate the universe or doesn’t have the means to do so, it’s that there’s no logical reason to scale 1-B from that feat to his physicals.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This seems to be coming off bit agressive there. Just because PPL saying that current justification is enough in their view and do not agree with the arguments you're making doesn't mean they're here to "Parrot" things or that they haven't read your OP and posting blindly. I myself don't think that arguments are enough to downgrade for reasons I have provided which is the same "parroting", whether you think that I'm right or wrong or i think you're right or wrong doesn't really matter at the end of the day. I've seen some ppls saying "I always felt their Universal stuff shouldn't scale to their physical". We all are with our opinions and want to push it forward more than others. So don't just treat them like pure idiots:/

I apologize if I appeared aggressive or dismissive, that’s not what I meant to do with my response there.

Basically, what my point was there, is that using a reason that’s being argued against in the very thread isn’t a reason to disagree with the said thread, because that reason your using for the vote is the very topic of contention in the thread. So your pretty much just parroting evidence that I’m giving arguments against instead of acknowledging the actual arguments.

If he said disagree for FRA, then he would be saying he disagrees for YOUR reasons that address the OPs arguments about that evidence, and then it would be fine.

 

[Reiner04]

Wait a minute. Are you saying the 1-B rating is because of the nature of the Dimension of Void allowing the Annihilaargh to do that?

Annhilargh functionality. Open to however u wanna interpret and theories. me saying anything will lead to another debate which I've said before I'm not interested in. Is the reason I'm only answering your question. So if u wanna add smth about it, go on. I don't really have anything to say more than what I've stated about all those stuff.

 

[Reiner04]

I can’t really blame Kukui though, the point of this thread isn’t that Alien X can’t recreate the universe or doesn’t have the means to do so, it’s that there’s no logical reason to scale 1-B from that feat to his physicals.

Maybe that's what you find yourself to come to agree with reading OP's argument, which I do not agree with and technically find current justification to itself being way straightforward than it can be. Not finding the arguments satisfactory is fine even if the reasoning for it is smth OP is arguing against. But that's ending to my opinion. What I'm saying that even if PPL aren't finding your arguments satisfactory, they can disagree. I can simply say "Alien X has been stated to be whatever the shit", and disagree. Regardless of mental gymnastics put to deliver otherwise in arguments. They can disagree even if they "Feel" it doesn't makes sense, Since we all tends to go with our sense of judgement when it comes statement interpretation which this thread is about. You can try to persuade them for otherwise or just highlight things specifically you want them to consider within the OP which you think they may have missed by chance, incase you want to convince them that is. Rather than just telling them to stop parroting and read the OP for their first comment in the entire thread.

 

[Lynieryz]

There is also the fact that Feedback is physically amped with the energy that is absorbed and he only loses the amp when he discharges the energy.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There is also the fact that Feedback is physically amped with the energy that is absorbed and he only loses the amp when he discharges the energy.

The Big Bang thing is being put on hold until my side thread about it gets resolved, so Feedbacks energy feat and the Big Bang feat in general may or may not matter depending on the outcome of that thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

By the way

Annhilargh functionality. Open to however u wanna interpret and theories. me saying anything will lead to another debate which I've said before I'm not interested in. Is the reason I'm only answering your question. So if u wanna add smth about it, go on. I don't really have anything to say more than what I've stated about all those stuff.

I asked that question because it may potentially open up another issue with the scaling here, which may be important to bring up (but I won’t do it right now).

 

[Veronica]

Bumpy bump

 

[Spilxson2]

If someone like Aggregor, a non-Celestialsapien, can take the powers of one and still be considered “Omnipotent” with said powers, then there’s absolutely no reason why Atomic X, with more Celestialsapien DNA by virtue of literally being half of Alien X himself, can’t be considered the same thing.

Is this statement accepted? Because if so, then the baby celestialsapien is basically just "Alien X but without the need of 2 personalities to perform actions". Therefore the baby celestialsapien being more powerful than Atomic-X with Atomic-X himself not being considered "omnipotent" doesn't seem too strange to me

 

[Reiner04]

Heads up on details guys-

• Osmosians Absorbs energy
• Biomatrix alters DNA of individual

Both aren't same, Biomatrix has no evidence of having 50-50 powers but just having abilities of both Aliens due to having DNA that can store some information regarding both species, obviously not all of Abilities since it's 50% alteration of DNA, but still, and 50% alteration in DNA is considered Alienatic. While Osmosians holds the power they absorb, even if in 10%, it's still comparable to Baby celestial sapiens unlike Atomic X who's no where comparable and getting his ass handed over to Maltruant.

They're not same but rather it's just false equivalency.

 

[Forthegood]

Bump

 

[Electro7101]

Kukui I understand if you feel overwhelmed by the amount of replies, ( I get the same )
& I hoped we could have collaborated together like others said
but we are not parroting
& you haven't conceded one point since the CRT started

Maybe you could focus on what one person said & let others supplement point by point

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just a heads up, but I’ll be busy this weekend, so I may not be able to respond as much. Don’t expect me to respond right away, but I will try to when given the chance.

I’ll respond to this real quick.

Heads up on details guys-

• Osmosians Absorbs energy
• Biomatrix alters DNA of individual

Someone already mentioned this before. What I will say is that this is missing the point here. Regardless of whether or not the methods of taking and applying abilities is different

The point is that, in both cases, both are not full Celestialsapiens. Aggregor would be even less then if anything because of the Osmosian method. And both wouldn’t be considered physically as strong as one. Aggregor only having 1/10th the power of a Celestialsapien because of that drawback from Osmioans ability absorption is explicit proof that he can’t get the full power of a Celestialsapien. Only a fraction of it. But despite that, he is still considered to have their “Omnipotence”.

There’s no such thing as a fraction of Omnipotence. It’s one of those things where you just are or you’re just not. If he’s able to have their Omnipotence and not be as physically strong as them at the same exact time, then that’s just another implication that the “Omnipotence” isn’t based on strength, but on abilities. Otherwise, being 1/10th of a Celestialsapien wouldn’t make Aggregor be considered that level. Just like you don’t consider Atomic X to have it.

While Osmosians holds the power they absorb, even if in 10%, it's still comparable to Baby celestial sapiens unlike Atomic X who's no where comparable and getting his ass handed over to Maltruant.

Atomic X only got beaten by Maltruant because the former lacked a resistance to his time powers IIRC, which doesn’t have to do with being physically overpowered. Just that he doesn’t have a defense to the hax.

I can’t really blame Kukui though, the point of this thread isn’t that Alien X can’t recreate the universe or doesn’t have the means to do so, it’s that there’s no logical reason to scale 1-B from that feat to his physicals.

Since your here CurrySenpai, what do you think about the above point in particular?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Since your here CurrySenpai, what do you think about the above point in particular?

I’ll take a look real quick, the nice thing about Ben 10 is I have a friend who knows a bit more about it than I do. Todays just been a bit busy so gimme like an hour.

 

[Reiner04]

There’s no such thing as a fraction of Omnipotence. It’s one of those things where you just are or you’re just not. If he’s able to have their Omnipotence and not be as physically strong as them at the same exact time, then that’s just another implication that the “Omnipotence” isn’t based on strength, but on abilities. Otherwise, being 1/10th of a Celestialsapien wouldn’t make Aggregor be considered that level. Just like you don’t consider Atomic X to have it.

Alien X don't have true omnipotence, no one in fiction does. Omnipotence in show is treated as strongest/most powerful or whatever here unless contradicted. 10% of his power is still too much and comparable to him at that. While biomatrix doesn't because DNA alteration makes them not being same. And nothing is stated about 50-50, while incase of Aggregor, we do know he has. so meh.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Alien X don't have true omnipotence, no one in fiction does. Omnipotence in show is treated as strongest/most powerful or whatever here unless contradicted.

No I know that. That’s why I put Omnipotence in quotations so I’m not talking about literal Omnipotence but the shows interpretation of it to say they are the strongest.

 

[Reiner04]

Eh..? Yeah, they're not undifferentiated, neither have to since that's requirement of Monad or Tier 0 ig (Ultima's thread).