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Big Alien X Downgrade (Wait…haven't we been here before?)

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Greenshifter said:
He defaulted to Firestorm, he should have let us decide who we were going to let compile arguments and debate with Kukui if 5 people is somehow too much for Kukui to debate against (he handled more than that in the past)
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Me when I derail:
No but seriously, I think he was just giving a name and picked Firestorm. I don't think he actually cares.
 
Alright, before I prepare responses to the other stuff, I want to bring special attention to this point first, because I need for this to be clarified please

Greenshifter said:
I still don’t get how the time bomb is an issue when it’s EE and Ben 10K likely knew exactly what was coming (I say likely because of the Hypertimeline complicating things).
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Ghengiroo115 said:
Tbh I’m not actually sure, but I would assume it’s just time erasure.
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Up until making this thread, it was my understanding that the Chronosapien Timebomb’s 2-A feat was done through using raw energy, like in the form of an energy blast, to destroy the multiverse as like a nuke would. But now I’m being corrected in that the bombs method of doing the feat was just existence erasure.

If this is actually the case, then this raises a bigger problem to be asked. Why would Alien X being “upscaled” from EE have this scale to his physicals? In the manner that his durability can somehow physically tank 2-A / 1-B levels of force or physically strike with 2-A / 1-B levels of force into his attacks?

And I suppose this would go into the question of why Existence Erasure would be equated to that of Attack Potency in the first place?
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And I suppose this would go into the question of why Existence Erasure would be equated to that of Attack Potency in the first place?
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vsbattles.com

(STAFF ONLY) EE AP revision

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Maverick_Zero_X Blech, I don't feel like my arguments were properly engaged with, the most cogent of those being: Listing EE as AP is misleading, because an 8-B with EE can still EE a character who is tier 5, as long as their...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Alright, before I prepare responses to the other stuff, I want to bring special attention to this point first, because I need for this to be clarified please




Up until making this thread, it was my understanding that the Chronosapien Timebomb’s 2-A feat was done through using raw energy, like in the form of an energy blast, to destroy the multiverse as like a nuke would. But now I’m being corrected in that the bombs method of doing the feat was just existence erasure.

If this is actually the case, then this raises a bigger problem to be asked. Why would Alien X being “upscaled” from EE have this scale to his physicals? In the manner that his durability can somehow physically tank 2-A / 1-B levels of force or physically strike with 2-A / 1-B levels of force into his attacks?

And I suppose this would go into the question of why Existence Erasure would be equated to that of Attack Potency in the first place?
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Wasn’t there a thread for this which proposed exactly that, even for non-tier 2/1 EE?

Edit: Ninja’d
 
Neutral for now (haven’t read the whole thread yet), though some of the OP’s arguments do align with our site standards.


Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Editing Rules

The VS Battles Wiki presently consists of 35,544 pages, most of them listing the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. However, there is a tremendous amount of work involved in maintaining the accuracy of statistics and upholding a high quality for the profiles. In...
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Edit: Going by this rule, unless there’s something in the show saying Celestialsapien Fusions are nerfed then Duncan Rouleau‘s statement can be dismissed.
 
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Maverick_Zero_X said:
Edit: Going by this rule, unless there’s something in the show saying Celestialsapien Fusions are nerfed then Duncan Rouleau‘s statement can be dismissed.
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It's actually less about the fusions being strong or weak and more about why they should even be considered on same level as individual Aliens. The alteration in DNA is a big issue that makes fusions not really a same species as their individual counterparts. Even if they're 50% close to Celestial sapiens DNA or 70%, then that's more like being an Alienatic species as whole going by real life references.
 
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I'm not sure that if I'm following the arguments properly at this point-
  1. Alien X being capable of altering all of time and space at his will
  2. Said to possess infinite/greatest/limitless power which in fiction if along the line of omnipotence is used then default to have powers beyond all. Since fiction don't dwell around much arguing/using uncountable infinities. So infinite power is mostly end of all in series if described that way.
  3. Said to be capable of destroying all of existence by servantis.
  4. Breached throught Extra-Dimensional Barrier physically that scales to Annhilargh.
Argument: all these are haxes since they didn't said "Alien X was unleashing X amount of energy in t amount of time and has good reality warping"?
 
I’m not going to really be able to respond until later tonight, so I’ll just say this for now.

Reiner04 said:
Argument: all these are haxes since they didn't said "Alien X was unleashing X amount of energy in t amount of time and has good reality warping"?
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To clarify, the argument isn’t that all of these statements are haxes because Alien X wasn’t said to be releasing energy (but that would be helpful if it was)

The argument is that these statements are contextually referring to hax because that is what the context is given in the show, specifically referring to abilities being the greatest power in the universe instead of raw power. As well as the fact that their “Omnipotence” can be taken or replicated by other beings that are not as physically strong as Celestialsapiens, like Aggregor.

The context no longer defaults to scaling to physicals and AP at that point, without greater evidence to prove it should scale to physicals.

Especially the existence erasing part of this, which from what I see, is still being determined on whether or not that even scales to AP in the first place (and by AP, I mean attacks, physical strikes or durability)
_________________

I’ve also been made aware of the Contimelia feat that’s being used for Alien X in this thread. So while I didn’t initially make an argument against it, I’m also against this now.

The Annihilaarghs big bang feat is simply that, a 1-B level big bang. It is a creation feat. There’s nothing that can be overpowered or requires durability to survive because it’s a big bang applied as creation, so there’s no offensive force behind it like it would as a destruction feat. It’s a non-physical expansion of space-time to create what’s getting made. You can’t “tank” creation being made.

Even the site doesn’t consider being in a big bang a feat AFAIK.
 
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The argument is that these statements are contextually referring to hax because that is what the context is given in the show, specifically referring to abilities being the greatest power in the universe instead of raw power. As well as the fact that their “Omnipotence” can be taken or replicated by other beings that are not as physically strong as Celestialsapiens, like Aggregor.
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Is that context you're referring to paradox saying "It's the source of Universes greatest power, it's where ideas become real"?

I do not agree that it is anyhow proves that there is some kind of context being provided for "Greatest power" in specific but just is being described what forge of creation is. It's just him describing what celestial sapiens are capable of. In words. Him having reality warping as well as being greatest power in the Universe both are statements.

Coming to other statements "Alien X possess infinite power", "Alien X possess unlimited power", "He is an omnipotent monster"

You're not just assuming that one instance is specifically trying to limit his powers to reality warping as in VSBW sense but also saying all statements that has been made about him having infinite power, which is AP in its own word is hax because paradox said he has damn lvl of control over reality. That's way far stretched assumption. And each assumption, which was never confirmed to be true in the first place is being brought to dismiss other statements. As i have said before "capable of doing anything" is a broad term and doesn't necessarily refer to hax but that the guy is just so powerful that he can do anything. He obviously can't do everything since pure omnipotence doesn't exists. But main point of focus is that it's building up assumption as base and trying to dismiss all feats ever happened or all statements that was ever made.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I’ve also been made aware of the Contimelia feat that’s being used for Alien X in this thread. So while I didn’t initially make an argument against it, I’m also against this now.

The Annihilaarghs big bang feat is simply that, a 1-B level big bang. It is a creation feat. There’s nothing that can be overpowered or requires durability to survive because it’s a big bang applied as creation, so there’s no offensive force behind it like it would as a destruction feat. It’s a non-physical expansion of space-time to create what’s getting made. You can’t “tank” creation being made.

Even the site doesn’t consider being in a big bang a feat AFAIK.
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It was brought up and concluded to be only applied to natural bigbangs as our site standards states. Annhilargh is not natural events, not close to bigbang we know of, was shown to be capable of realeasing energy that affects spacetime, it penetrated the white void and began and created the Universe, it was said to be capable of harming Contimelias a 5th dimensional life form, so this energy expands to all dimensions and destructive in nature if tanked.
If it has generated a space-time expansion that creates an entire universal spacetime continuum from scratch, it is treated as Low 2-C. The difference between this and a 3-A Big Bang that also creates time being that the latter only creates a moment of a universe's time that will expand on its own after the Big Bang is over, therefore said Big Bang didn't create the length of time in the timeline, but kickstarted it from the beginning. Surviving a Low 2-C Big Bang isn't a Universe level+ feat in durability due to the non-physical nature of such an event. However, this ideally only applies to Big Bangs as natural events, instead of attacks with a destructive capacity independent of their size and tier.
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
You’re missing the point for this. The point in mentioning this was to demonstrate that there are limits to Alien X’s abilities and that he can’t literally do “anything” since he was confirmed to be incapable of reversing the Annihilaarghs destruction wave and was forced to recreate what got destroyed.

I also already addressed that even if we ignore this entirely, Serena and Bellicus never state Alien X can do “anything” in the first place, just “many things”. Azmuth is the only character who makes that claim, and his word is objectively an inferior form of judgement compared to them.

Overall, the point for this isnt that Alien X is inferior to the Annihilarrgh (he’s not), it’s that there are limits set to his capabilities.
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Like I said before, the refutations I gave above weren't all that I had , I had a separate thing for omnipotence (there is only nature of Celestialsapiens that is stopping Ben 10 from reaching Boundless on Ultima's new Tiering)
OMNIPOTENCE OF CELESTIALSAPIENS/ ALL POWERFUL AND LIMITLESS POWER ARGUMENT
So we both are already aware of Paradox's statement for Omnipotent Agregor with power of baby Celestialsapien backed up by CN synopsis of same episode (limitless power statment of cartoon network), for now , we assume all of those statements right and this grants celestialsapiens limitless power and making them all powerful, same goes for agregor with power of baby Celestialsapien
But osmosians only get 10 percent power so 10 percent and full of that "Omnipotence" is still Omnipotence
hence we have a mechanism and practical evidence for CPs being all powerful (and it backs up those statements by azmuth and even OMNIPOTENT statment of Chadzmuth .
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
This argument only works by going off of the assumption of Alien X being above the CTB in the first place and treating that as factual to go off of this being a PIS, when it happening can also be interpreted as the Omnitrix recognizing it can’t survive and it hops to NW Ben, a version of Ben that wouldn’t be targeted by the bomb, in order to survive.
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Then you need to explain that what would happen to plot if Ben really survived it
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Edit: Going by this rule, unless there’s something in the show saying Celestialsapien Fusions are nerfed then Duncan Rouleau‘s statement can be dismissed.
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Atomic X is weak against time because atomics is weak
A biomnitrix fusion isn't simply "50 percent of power of both aliens" but "50 percent of DNA of both Aliens" and it automatically prove that a Fusion inherits 50 percent of traits (and atomics is weak against time , so Atomic x is also weak)
 
OMNIVERSAL-KING said:
Number of people disagreeing is 2× the sum of agreeing and neutral people
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You're new so u maybe don't know. It doesn't matter how many members agrees to what- obviously it'll may will lead to try to see from perspective of beyond self thought view and consider to increase the scope- but what matters is number of staff votes at the end of the day.
 
Nvm, don’t have time to respond to the recent replies, I’ll need to wait until later on.

But I will ask for people to please stop making unnecessary responses to this thread, unless they are responding to a specific argument from me or they are voting. I’ve nicely asked a couple times before but it got missed.

This thread was only posted yesterday, and we’re already close to 5 pages in, with me primarily being the only opposition to argue my case against mostly people who are verse supporters voting against this. I understand that people may have points to bring up, but unless it’s something that’s integral to mention and is not just getting parroted over and over, it’s getting to the point of becoming harder and harder for me to respond to peoples comments.

EDIT: And I don’t want to try remaking this as a staff thread to get it under control
 
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Reiner04 said:
You're new so u maybe don't know. It doesn't matter how many members agrees to what- obviously it'll may will lead to try to see from perspective of beyond self thought view and consider to increase the scope- but what matters is number of staff votes at the end of the day.
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He has one staff member agreeing, one disagreeing and one nutral just nutral (I hope marvic also disagrees) and one nutral but leaning towards disagree
I think this won't get accepted
 
A new refutation flashed in my mind
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
You’re missing the point for this. The point in mentioning this was to demonstrate that there are limits to Alien X’s abilities and that he can’t literally do “anything” since he was confirmed to be incapable of reversing the Annihilaarghs destruction wave and was forced to recreate what got destroyed.
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Didn't I debunked this here
OMNIVERSAL-KING said:
I disagree and I have a few debunks (I will give more debunks if needed )
ANNIHILARG THINGS YOU MENTIONED ABOVE
Well a personality of Alien X wants to "save dinosaurs" (I think it was bellicus , this happened in episode X = Ben + 2) but they are still arguing for it, now Serena's statment "I am afraid it is(late)" means same thing (her fair that since ben didn't stopped it before getting activated so Alien X will never decide to do anything)
I can back this up by fact that fraction of Celestialsapien DNA can cut through contimilla barrier (that protects contimilla from energy of annihilarg, and thus have durability to counter annihilarg)
So Celestialsapiens are faaaaar superior than annihilarg
also how Alien X created "a new universe" is universe wasn't destroyed because it is impossible to to re create a universe if it never got destroyed (if you say that because Alien X can do impossible things then you will ultimately contradict your own points)
PHYSICAL STATE OF ALIEN X BEING WEAKER
So first of all we cant just simply say that Alien X is weaker than CTB just like Atomic X (atomic X also has DNA of atomics and atomics is bounded by time , that's why Atomic x is below CTB) and the thing that starbeard couldn't help them is also not accurate as we don't even know that was it really starbeard or animation error (if he was starbeard then where was his staff + he came on earth first time with multiple attendants , also since he can fly so why he was floating after gravity went off)
FAILSAFE AND CTB
If omnitrix or biometric activated Alien X and he would have survived the CTB , then how was No watch Ben supposed to get Omnitrix, and if no watch Ben didn't got the Omnitrix then how would Ben prime get Omnitrix? So it was obviously a plot reason
I have some other debunks as well , I will send a few other things after getting free
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So your reasoning for limitation on his powers is already debunked (+ I have given a debunk using limitless powers argument above)
 
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