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Beyonder tier

NULL_Terrorist

NULL_Terrorist

115
26
I agree with his tier, but one thing I don't understand is how is beyonder above Oblivion when he is just above existene while Oblivion is not part of existence?

If we remove that we could make Oblivion above baseline 1-A since everything is just a illusion to him. Which include the beyond realm.
 
in ultimates the outside (which suppossedly Oblivion embodies was stated to be beyond and outside all realms which would include beyond realm) it's the absolute nothingness.
 
and I also fail to see a multiverse being beyond the absolute nothingness which was before Everything (which include the first firmament)
 
Wasn't the Beyonder stated to be the mightiest being in existence? Technically Oblivion is the embodiment of nonexistence, but nevertheless.
 
You can ask Matthew, Sandman31, and Ryukama to comment here if you wish.
 
So it really goes down to these 2 points

Either, the scan was referring to all of existence, which could mean the multiverse which would entirely devalue this point as Oblivion isnt apart of existence, he transcends it in its entierty as he embodies the Void beyond it

Or, the scan was talking about beings who exist, which is a huge assumption since there wasn't a single mention or interaction between Oblivion in Secret wars, and Oblivion also techincally doesn't "exist'.
 
Well, I mentioned that exact point when the scaling was first decided, but was out-argued by Ryukama, Matthew and the others.

I also feel more comfortable scaling the Pre-Retcon version of the Beyonder to the Marvel cosmic entities as they were in 1985, not the developments that they went through decades later.
 
I don't think we should use Guide for upgrade

Matthew: Also TLT being above Oblivion is very much a "Probably?" thing.

Ryu: Oblivion may have been introduced later, but if he supposedly always existed, and Beyonder was superior to everyone else at that time, then he should still scale.

I don't really agree with this scaling. Not only oblivion doesn't truly exist but is also not part of existence. It was stated oblivion would still be there even if the concept of existence is gone.

And Beyonder being superior to everyone doesn't include Oblivion since it was only the cosmic entities in existence.

Beyonder himself even stated only the mighties entities in existence and Oblivion isn't part of that. (which was only shown to be TLT and the concepts of the multiverse)
 
Well, Oblivion was later stated to be comparable to Infinity and Eternity in the handbooks, but that doesn't really make sense. He should logically be far superior.
 
Yeah and remember in Oblivion guidebook they mentioned something about chronal dimesnions(or something like that) which is also not true since he is absolute nothingness.

So this also makes the claim on the guide saying TLT> oblivion false. And we should remove the beyonder is greater than oblivion stuff.
 
I don't know. I cannot make a decision about this on my own.
 
I don't think you need others to make decision about it. As it is pretty clear that beyonder isn't above nothingness
 
You can ask Matthew and Ryukama to comment here.
 
I mean MM directly stated Beyonder transcends him the same way he transcends Capt america(humanity). And I believe oblivion was established when beyonder and mm were called strongest two(could be wrong). Not to mention oblivion has directly stated "if I had my own way" meaning he's being limited from destroying and erasing everything back into his own being as he desires. I do think beyonder has limits but quite a lot was cleared up with him being much higher regarded than before. While oblivion seems like he's about 4-5th strongest in marvel,
 
The first part doesn't mean much when Molecule man is at best multi abstract level while oblivion is FAR above them, Strongest two in existence, Existence in this context can either mean the multiverse which Oblivion is completely above in its entirety, removing the possbility, or 2 beings existing, which wouldn't make sense as Oblivion embodies the Void beyond all, he literally embodies nonexistence meaning he techincally doesn't "exist". also just basing off 2 strongest beings in creation including oblivion would be like saying all of creation always includes higher dimensions.

That was referring to the barrier between Oblivion and Creation (which is vague in itself), it could be TOAA who created it, since it was shown in Ultimates 2 how he basically feels love for the mulitverses and saved Multi eternity by sending the other multiverses to help him

Beyonder not having many limits doesn't validate him being Oblivion from the statement.
 
Has anybody asked Matthew and Ryukama yet? Sandman31 might also be able to help out.
 
That's not the point Lol, Same year, Different writer, the reason we were bringing up in existence is because the term existence can be used to define all of creation, which Oblivion exists outside and beyond of entirely, meaning he really can't be included in it.
 
Well, I suppose that we could remove the Oblivion mention, but still keep the Beyonder's tier.
 
It would be best if you ask Ryukama and Matthew to comment though.
 
Possibly, but Matthew hasn't had the time to revise the Tribunal's profile yet.
 
I mean, if Oblivion was > TLT... wouldn't he have already... you know, wiped him out?

There is even a being , the Never Queen, who si the embodiment of all that doesn't exist (but has a possibility or something like that) yet we don't scale her above TLT
 
Well, it was recently stated that the Living Tribunal was just a function within Multi-Eternity, but that if Multi-Eternity was destroyed, Oblivion would still remain.

However, there have been very contradicting information regarding the Living Tribunal's power level over the years.

In any case, we can technically explain it with plot-induced stupidity and protection from The-One-Above-All.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, it was recently stated that the Living Tribunal was just a function within Multi-Eternity, but that if Multi-Eternity was destroyed, Oblivion would still remain.
However, there have been very contradicting information regarding the Living Tribunal's power level over the years.

In any case, we can technically explain it with plot-induced stupidity and protection from The-One-Above-All.
Click to expand...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Hykuu said:
That's not the point Lol, Same year, Different writer, the reason we were bringing up in existence is because the term existence can be used to define all of creation, which Oblivion exists outside and beyond of entirely, meaning he really can't be included in it.
Click to expand...
But you still say that Oblivion still exists and you use the word "exist" to conote Oblivion's indifference only to the Marvel Multiverse. So it's still part of existence. So Oblivion, despite embodying the Void, is still an existence. Oblivion has a conciousness, a self sentience, he has power, he identifies as an "I Am", an intelligence, an awareness which is a concept in itself, these are anthropomorphic constructs of existence itself, and not purely nothingness or a 0 and it is still a content. So this demands that Oblivion is still part of existence. He's still an entity. An existence outside of the Multiverse merely. It's as simple as that. And it doesn't matter if it were different writers since this is Marvel we're talking about here and the two stories were arguably co-canonical at the time. Existence doesn't have to be limited to Creation. There are many things in fiction that are part of existence, yet are eternal and were not really created. Now if Beyonder was merely more powerful than all of Creation and not all of Existence, then you'd have a point, but he said existence. There are more points in support of including Oblivion than not to.
 
Wait how does MM statement mean nothing? MM was only contesting a held back beyonder and was still called strongest two beyond multi-Eternity/Nevermore. Even if entertaining oblivion isn't apart of it, MM being beyond eternity(who does exist), nevermore(eternity's wife) and still making the statement PRB transcends him the same way he transcends capt(humanity) is still valid.
 
I strongly doubt that the Beyonder transcended MM the way that MM transcended a human. MM was able to somewhat contend with the Beyonder, so that interpretation does not make any sense.
 
" beyond multi-Eternity/Nevermore "

Nevermore came out 2016, what the **** are you on about

you can't mesh 2 comics which came out almost 4 decades away from each other to scale, lmao
 
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