Better Tier For Kirby/Kirby Villains Discussion

[Professor_Voodoo]

I kinda made this thread for 2 reasons. 1: I'm not a huge fan of that anime stomach dimension feat, and 2: I believe if we're gonna scale Kirby off anyone, it's this mudda trucka(gotta keep it PG for the kiddums.)


https://m.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3abxc3/respect_magolor_kirby_games/


Now, i'm only gonna be able to offer minor insight(i can't calc), so discuss thus as y'all see fit.


Sans the black hole stunt....which i have come to realize is bollocks.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Skodwarde Bump

 

[Darkness552]

hmm maybe people more knowlegable on kirby should take a look at this

although ill give my opinion on this later

 

[Digilord_64]

"Anime stomach feat"

If I'm correct, the stomach dimension thing was also in Squeak Squad.

 

[Unclechairman]

Kirby's stomach is shown on the bottom screen in Squeak Squad. yes, but there's no indication given on it's size if I remember. Also, Kirby can only "save for later" items and abilities that are inside bubbles found either in the field or created/put in bubbles with his Bubble ability.

I'm skeptical of Universal Magolor. The only indication that he created the dimension he's fought in from my memory is that it collapses when you defeat him. It seems more likely that he was using it as a path or shortcut to Pop Star, given that Pop Star appears on the portal before Kirby and his friends fly into it and just beforehand, Magolor had announced his intentions to take over Pop Star.

I'm not sure why Kirby is listed as 5-A despite his DC being "At least Planet level+, and Planet level+ is 5-B.

 

[Darkness552]

i agree with Unclechairman

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Magolor is incredibly hard to rate. Considering "univeral threat" could mean almost anything. I'm also not entirely familiar with his feats, but didn't he require Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, and Bandana Waddle Dee in order to take him down?

 

[Unclechairman]

Depending on whether or not you play with friends, any one of them can take him down on their own in-game. Cutscenes, however, always feature all four of them together, so I suppose this could be taken as meaning they all canonically took part in the story.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, I figured that the canon story features all four of them taking him down due to their presence in the cutscenes.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Alright. I was watching SummerSlam and i apologize for the late reply But...after beating Magolor the first time, he came back, and became a horrific looking villain in The True Arena. That mode was single player iirc. I think reasonably, Kirby could've taken Magolor on his own. This situation is very similar to DBZ situations. I.E. (Saiyan Saga Goku beating Vegeta due to some interference)


As for the power itself, the dimension contained small clusters of galaxies(seen floating in the bottom part of the battle background).


When Magolor lost, and the Master Crown pretty much went kaput, it took that entire dimension out with it. As for the universe claims, if it's claimed, it's usually hyperbole.

 

[Unclechairman]

So are you proposing we upgrade Kirby and his friends to Multi-Galaxy level based on this? I'm still wary of this, since there's no definitive indication that that dimension was created under the Master Crown's power. If it counts for anything, it'd be as a suicide attack since the dimension only collapsed after he was defeated and the crown shattered.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This is the same reason I'm hesitant to upgrade Darkspine Sonic to universal (even though it feels as though both Magolor and DS Sonic were designed to be so). I feel that despite my gut feeling, the proof we have isn't solid enough.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Not the creation per se(even i don't know how the dimension got there), but the destruction. The Master Crown was fueling Magolor(without it he's just a somewhat cute critter). Magolor Soul is Master Crown Magolor's true form, as shown in The True Arena. When Kirby(or the player you chose) defeated Magolor Soul, or more accurately the crown, all the attacks detached the crown from Magolor and caused it to destroy the entire dimension. Now personally, i don't think all 4 should be buffed to multi galaxy(A galaxy level Waddle Dee makes me wanna puke), just Kirby as he is the main protagonist and fighter. Also, Magolor is still alive and well(he was a friendly in Kirby's Dream Collection).


(edit) It's also not outside Kirby's power to do this on his own. He beat the creator of the Super Smash Bros. universe, Master Hand, and his whacko companion, Crazy Hand. And this happened in Kirby's own game, Kirby And The Amazing Mirror.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Shupa Bump

 

[Unclechairman]

The biggest problem with this is that the Master Crown didn't destroy the dimension until it was destroyed (assuming it was the Master Crown that destroyed the dimension in the first place). We had a rather lengthy debate on this type of feat and whether or not it was valid in an earlier thread involving Unicron from Transformers. The only way this could have really been scaled to Kirby if he actually tanked the dimension's collapse, but he didn't.

As for Master Hand and Crazy Hand, I don't think they can be scaled to him either. Otherwise, every character in Smash Bros. would be Universal as well.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

The biggest problem with this is that the Master Crown didn't destroy the dimension until it was destroyed (assuming it was the Master Crown that destroyed the dimension in the first place). We had a rather lengthy debate on this type of feat and whether or not it was valid in an earlier thread involving Unicron from Transformers. The only way this could have really been scaled to Kirby if he actually tanked the dimension's collapse, but he didn't.

As for Master Hand and Crazy Hand, I don't think they can be scaled to him either. Otherwise, every character in Smash Bros. would be Universal as well.

Before i continue, i only count the Master Hand example because it happened in Kirby's own game and therefore fits in Kirby canon. As for the dimension being destroyed, it was lilely the Master Crown. Magolor was your ordinary cutesy looking alien before and after being possessed by the crown. And even if we don't count the durability, we still gotta factor basic ABC powerscale. Kirby defeated the Master Crown enhanced Magolor placing him above the power of the Master Crown. Therefore Kirby>Master Crown in destructive capacity. Durability may be a different discussion.

 

[Unclechairman]

I don't think the fact that Master Hand appeared in Kirby's verse is a good reason to scale Kirby to him. As for the Master Crown's destructive capacity, I still don't believe Magolor with the Master Crown should be Multi-Galaxy level based on a dimension with what seems to be multiple galaxies in the background collapsing after Magolor's defeat. There's far too many dubiosities involved.

However, I'm going to highlight this thread because I would like this to be resolved before we just let this discussion end abruptly with no conclusion. Currently, you and I are the only people posting in this discussion, so let's hope more users come so we can finally reach some kind of conclusion.

 

[Awesome_Betterhero]

Magolor is multi-galaxy to universe level with the Master Crown, and he uses his full power, but Master Hand always holds back, so defeating him wouldn't count as a universal feat.

 

[Fastsword88]

I agree that Kirby deserves a greater tier. The Magolor feat is good enough. The dimension is enormous, as we can clearly see tons of galaxies in the background when Kirby and co. are traveling through it at MFTL+ speeds. Magolor causes it to collapse with his dying breath, but what further proves that he's indeed that much powerful is that he can manipulate the entire dimension mid-fight to impede Kirby's mobility, as I can show you here : https://youtu.be/4RvOEzc5PnQ?t=11m32s

Magolor isn't the only one of his kind in the Kirby franchise. In "The Amazing Mirror", Dark Mind made from both Master Hand & Crazy Hand his mere servants to guard the last fragment of the amazing mirror, and Master Hand alone is confirmed to be universe level by Nintendo many times : http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Hand. Kirby beats both bloodlused universal hand, takes the last fragment of the amazing mirror, and goes to destroy the even more powerful Dark Mind as well. By the way, Dark Mind can also manipulate the mirror dimension in the exact same fashion as Magolor mid-fight.

There's also Marx Soul. In his 1st form alone, he's already a large star buster : http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?bt=202970 but Kirby kills him along with Nova (a universe level reality warper) by smashing one at the other. Later, Marx returns as Marx Soul when he multiplies his already insane raw power by several times after absorbing the universe level wish granting Nova, but Kirby still destroys him almost effortlessly.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

I agree that Kirby deserves a greater tier. The Magolor feat is good enough. The dimension is enormous, as we can clearly see tons of galaxies in the background when Kirby and co. are traveling through it at MFTL+ speeds. Magolor causes it to collapse with his dying breath, but what further proves that he's indeed that much powerful is that he can manipulate the entire dimension mid-fight to impede Kirby's mobility, as I can show you here : https://youtu.be/4RvOEzc5PnQ?t=11m32s

Magolor isn't the only one of his kind in the Kirby franchise. In "The Amazing Mirror", Dark Mind made from both Master Hand & Crazy Hand his mere servants to guard the last fragment of the amazing mirror, and Master Hand alone is confirmed to be universe level by Nintendo many times : http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Hand. Kirby beats both bloodlused universal hand, takes the last fragment of the amazing mirror, and goes to destroy the even more powerful Dark Mind as well. By the way, Dark Mind can also manipulate the mirror dimension in the exact same fashion as Magolor mid-fight.

There's also Marx Soul. In his 1st form alone, he's already a large star buster : http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?bt=202970 but Kirby kills him along with Nova (a universe level reality warper) by smashing one at the other. Later, Marx returns as Marx Soul when he multiplies his already insane raw power by several times after absorbing the universe level wish granting Nova, but Kirby still destroys him almost effortlessly.

I wouldn't say "dying breath". Magolor literally survived that dimension collapsing point blank(and due to the Master Crown going kaput he went back to his normal self). As seen in Kirby's Dream Collection, he's racing Kirby.


https://youtu.be/c1jzHblPqzM

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In all honesty:

• I am completely alright with making Magolor 3-B or 3-A should we make a profile for him, especially since we have changed Darkspine Sonic to "Possibly 3-A" for almost the exact same reasons.

• I am not sure if I feel Kirby and co. should scale to this, as it feels extremely out of place compared to their usual feats.

• I am firmly against calling Amazing Mirror Master Hand and Crazy Hand universal, as they were not shown to be at their SSB levels in that game. Even in SSB, they usually hold back.

• I am unsure where Dark Mind should place.

• I do not think Nova should be considered universal unless shown otherwise.

Those are my opinions on the matter.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

I did request a Magolor profile be made a long time ago....and uh i'd only scale Kirby to Magolor myself. (Meta Knight a maybe, DeDeDe not likely, and Waddle Dee....HELL NO)

 

[Awesome_Betterhero]

I agree that NOVA is nowhere near universe level, but Dark Mind is. He corrupted the Mirror World, which is another universe.

 

[Fastsword88]

In all honesty:

• I am completely alright with making Magolor 3-B or 3-A should we make a profile for him, especially since we have changed Darkspine Sonic to "Possibly 3-A" for almost the exact same reasons.

• I am not sure if I feel Kirby and co. should scale to this, as it feels extremely out of place compared to their usual feats.

• I am firmly against calling Amazing Mirror Master Hand and Crazy Hand universal, as they were not shown to be at their SSB levels in that game. Even in SSB, they usually hold back.

• I am unsure where Dark Mind should place.

• I do not think Nova should be considered universal unless shown otherwise.

Those are my opinions on the matter.

I'm pretty sure MH wasn't holding back in that game, nor is he a different version (if you eat him with Kirby, you gain the Smash ability), as he attacks Kirby several times as a mid-boss before the real boss fight. He manages to escape Kirby's stomach dimension possibly via reality warping (I recall that in SSB4, one of his attacks consist of ripping through reality, literally). Though, the more impressive feat is that Kirby took down Dark Mind, and the latter was powerful enough to make from MH his servant. Dark Mind can also manipulate the entire mirror world (a universe parallel to Kirby's) mid-fight like Magolor to impede Kirby's mobility, as I can show you guys here : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3pEGRgMIvoo (at 4:00 of the video)

As for who I believe should be comparable to these villains in terms of power, I guess Kirby & Meta Knight, since they're usually shown to be the top tiers of the cast.

On another note, Kirby deserves a greater speed classement too, even without the Warp Star :

As we can clearly see here, Kirby is traveling through space debris/asteroids next to Earth's orbit, and there's Earth close in the background : youtu.be/K290E6CEEZo?t=1h8m16s

Few minutes later, Kirby reached Pop Star's orbit as we can clearly see Pop Star in the background : youtu.be/K290E6CEEZo?t=1h9m9s

In the official booklet of Kirby's Adventure, it's confirmed that there's a distance of light years between Earth & Pop Star : www.kirbysrainbowresort.net/ga…

Meaning Kirby was capable of covering light years distances in just a few minutes on foot, while being distracted (by enemies and searching treasures) no less, putting him at MFTL+ speeds. And the Warp Star is even faster than him on foot.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Eating Amazing Mirror Master Hand and gaining the "Smash" ability is not nearly enough justification to make him universal. Furthermore, manipulating gravity doesn't make Dark Mind universal, either. If he does have universal feats in the game, I would like to see those.

As I said, I am completely comfortable with 3-B to 3-A Magolor, but I am not sure about 3-B to 3-A Kirby and Meta Knight, as it greatly contradicts their usual feats. If there are other universal foes (who actually show proof of being at that level as Magolor did), then it would be much easier to put them at such levels.

As for Kirby's speed, traveling a distance of light years with the aid of magic doors is not even close to enough evidence to bump Kirby to MFTL+ on foot.

If there is other proof of these claims, I would genuinely like to see it. I am a huge Kirby fan and would be happy to see the verse get upgraded a bit, but only for rational reasons.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

I agree that NOVA is nowhere near universe level, but Dark Mind is. He corrupted the Mirror World, which is another universe.

Corrupting a universe and flat out destroying it are 2 different things imo.

 

[Fastsword88]

Eating Amazing Mirror Master Hand and gaining the "Smash" ability is not nearly enough justification to make him universal. Furthermore, manipulating gravity doesn't make Dark Mind universal, either. If he does have universal feats in the game, I would like to see those.
As I said, I am completely comfortable with 3-B to 3-A Magolor, but I am not sure about 3-B to 3-A Kirby and Meta Knight, as it greatly contradicts their usual feats. If there are other universal foes (who actually show proof of being at that level as Magolor did), then it would be much easier to put them at such levels.

As for Kirby's speed, traveling a distance of light years with the aid of magic doors is not even close to enough evidence to bump Kirby to MFTL+ on foot.

If there is other proof of these claims, I would genuinely like to see it. I am a huge Kirby fan and would be happy to see the verse get upgraded a bit, but only for rational reasons.

Actually, me saying that Kirby gets the Smash ability when eating MH wasn't proof that the hand is universal, but that he's the same MH everybody knows, who is already confirmed many times to be a universe creator (http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Hand). If Dark Mind forced MH to become his servant, then it seems logical that he's on that level of power, right ? Also, in the link I provided, Dark Mind doesn't manipulate gravity, he clearly flips the dimension upside down, which indeed backs up his level of power.

Not sure if Kirby's feats differ greatly from his foes', I mean even low-tier beings (such as Marx) are already large star level (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?bt=198913).

There's also Dark Crafter http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Crafter, a being far above both Elline & Claycia, who created the entirity of the Seventopia dimension. And of course, Kirby kills Dark Crafter at the end of that game.

As for Kirby's speed, he genuinely crossed light years on foot, as those doors aren't considered to be magical and aren't shown to act like portals anywhere in that game. Even by that time, doors & portals are different things in the Kirby franchise. When Kirby comes across something that's meant to be a genuine teleporting portal, it does look like one (a glowing black hole-like star/circle/magical mirror). The only doors to act like portals in the franchise are the shortcut doors, and they don't exist in Squeak Squad (the game the feat comes from), they only exist in Mass Attack if I recall well.

During the final battle with Dark Crafter, Kirby gets his Rocket copy ability (which appeared in previous games), and chases the foe, passing through star systems and galaxies, and they only take few seconds to cruise through those stellar distances (

).

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Updated the post title to reflect the thread(seems the Kirby villains are getting discussed as well)


Will bump if necessary as i want a good conclusion to this.

 

[Antvasima]

As Azathoth said, we need conclusive feats for this massive an upgrade, and even so, if they severely contradict the character's general level, they may be taken as outliers.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Hmm.....i dunno myself. Kirby games usually have a random boss of the day(save for the Dark Matter Trilogy).....one minute he's fighting a fat penguin with a hammer, then he's fighting a bleeding eyeball angel, then he's fighting a jester, yeah i don't know if "general level" can be used for a character as cartoonish as Kirby.

 

[Fastsword88]

I agree with Skodward The Almighty, Kirby's foes aren't consistent, but they do seem to get more powerful with every game/generation. And Kirby's general level of power comes from his victories over universe level beings (Magolor, Dark Mind, Master Hand, Claycia/Dark Crafter), so none of these feats are outliers, as Kirby proved time and time again that he can take down 3-A tier monstrosities with heavy raw power.

As for speed, well, aside from traveling light years on foot in a few seconds without the Warp Star, he's also a match to several MFTL+ space manipulators (even without the Warp Star), including Dark Daroach : http://giant.gfycat.com/ShockingAffectionateAlpaca.gif

As we can see, Dark Daroach departs and reaches the center of the galaxy up ahead in few seconds, about 10 seconds it seems. Since the distance covered should at least be 50,000 light years (radius of the galaxy), that means Daroach has a velocity of over 4.75e+19 m/s, which is 158,333,333,333 times faster than light !

Even then, he was no match for Kirby in battle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, I definitely agree Magolor should be somewhere around 3-A. However, he is certainly not the norm. I need more feats for Dark Mind. Corrupting a universe does not equal being able to destroy one. Master Hand has shown absolutely no proof of being universal in Amazing Mirror. He doesn't even show his universal power when you fight him in Smash, so I fail to see how a less impressive cameo from another game automatically means both he and Kirby are universal. I am not familiar with Dark Crafter. What are its feats?

As for Dark Daroach, do you have video or any longer gifs? Two frames involving him flying towards a galaxy aren't enough. Even so, it's very important to note travel speed does not automatically equal combat speed.

 

[Fastsword88]

In the cutscene preceeding the fight, Magolor apparently outspeeds Kirby, so it's logical that since Kirby couldn't make advantage of his speed in battle, he had to rely on heavy raw power in order to take Magolor down.

There's also the fact that, Magolor survived the collapse of the dimension in base form only, then escaped from the dimension beyond space and time https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHiXcn9bFw. And Kirby's obviously leagues above Magolor's soul form, let alone base form.

I wouldn't call the evidence "a less impressive cameo" (http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Hand). The trophies from 3 different games clearly state that MH created the universe. Creation/destruction/manipulation are all feats, reasonably, and as the "Attack Potency" page points out. If MH is universal, and Dark Mind forced MH to be his servant, then it makes sense that Dark Mind is universal as well, right ? And like I said, Dark Mind can also flip the dimension upside down mid-fight, which backs up his level of power http://gfycat.com/OblongDisguisedBandicoot#.

Claycia created the entire Seventopia dimension http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Crafter but is a being far weaker than Dark Crafter who made from her a slave. Kirby beats Claycia back to her senses then proceeds to kill Dark Crafter as well.

Needless to say, these are too many feats to overlook, and they back up Kirby's level of power. Now onto speed (without the Warp Star) :

I already provided the links for these 3 feats in my previous comments :

-Kirby covering light years in minurtes (and like he said, he didn't use any portals during the travel

-Kirby in his rocket copy ability cruises through solar systems in seconds while chasing Dark Crafter

-Kirby outmatching several MFTL+ space manipulators in battle, including Dark Daroach. You will need to explain why it's not enough of a feat, while he clearly departs for the center of the galaxy with Kirby quickly following, locating and battling him there.

On a last note, combat speed is a fallacy that was debunked a good time ago. For short, anyone with a certain travel speed have by default reaction/combat speed equal/superior to his travel speed, otherwise he'll be bumping into obstacles the entire time and won't be able to control his trajectory. No need to discuss this matter, check out these articles if you want more details on the flawed combat speed argument :

>http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/79-combat-speed-fallacy

>http://www.screwattack.com/news/fallacies-fictional-fights-part-1-combat-speed-fallacy

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Kirby's foes aren't consistent, but they do seem to get more powerful with every game/generation.

Not exactly true. Whoever he fights(save for Dark Matter/Zero/Zero-2) is basically your villain of the day. The boss he fought after Magolor, Sectonia.....was rather meh.


On the flip side, he can easily go from fighting a fat penguin with no major destructive capacity(i doubt DeDeDe was planet level back in 92) to a partial moon level threat that can spread nightmares across a galaxy. The one place Kirby is truly consistent, his track record against villains is squeaky clean. Only one time did he truly need shown help(against Lovecraftian horror/bleeding eyeball Zero-2, and the help only extended to be a flying mount)

 

[Antvasima]

Actually, according to repeated official comments from Tom Brevoort, who is the highest Executive Editor of Marvel Comics, and decides the official Marvel power rankings, our system of automatically assigning the same combat speed as flight speed to characters, is one that the creators and editors themselves do not remotely subscribe to.

Regardless, from what Game did Kirby fight Master Hand? If it is Super Smash Brothers, we do not count that.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Actually, according to repeated official comments from Tom Brevoort, who is the highest Executive Editor of Marvel Comics, and decides the official Marvel power rankings, our system of automatically assigning the same combat speed as flight speed to characters, is one that the creators and editors themselves do not remotely subscribe to.

Regardless, from what Game did Kirby fight Master Hand? If it is Super Smash Brothers, we do not count that.

The game was Kirby And The Amazing Mirror.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. I thought that Master Hand was a character from other Nintendo franchises?

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Okay. Thanks. I thought that Master Hand was a character from other Nintendo franchises?

Yes. Yes he is. He is from Smash. But him and Crazy Hand appeared as bosses in Kirby And The Amazing Mirror. Which fits into Kirby canon.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Question being did Master Hand hold back or not? I really can't say...Kirby was also fighting Crazy Hand, so we have to take that into consideration.