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[KIRBY SPOILERS] Forgotten Land Final Boss discussion
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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I added the new thing. There is a proposal to point out Kirby's vehicles in his profile, which anyone can start in a sandbox so we see from there.
Another thing against Mid-Godly (not that it's needed to) is that Fecto Forgo did not even have Low-Godly regen on their own, that's why their soul needed to steal someone else's body. Later after gaining further power they gained Low-Godly regen.
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What if he just wanted to steal someone's body to gain new power
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I think Forgo Soul is more potent as a soul and not power-wise
Galacta knight could potentially be physically superior to Kirby.
Kirby still beats them cause of skill and superior combat style but i guess the butterfly still prefers him.
Here's a theory, only a theory, but maybe Kirby has soul hax resistance which makes him impervious to the butterfly's attempts. Or maybe the butterfly can't eat good people?
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Why?
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Cause it could barely hold a physical form, it needed to possess Leongar to keep up, only transforming afterwards as it's vessel was gone. Meanwhile kirby beat up it's full form and chaos elfilis AND morpho knight.
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Where is this stated?
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In the basis of observation and logic.
When fecto got a source of power (his other half, the energy of the chaos butterfly) he becomes elfilis. When he doesn't, he looks for power or a vessel (animal pack and Leongar). This time he has none of it.
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It could just mean he wants more power
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He wants more power but Soul Forgo lost his energy sources and vessel. He basically had no basis to be stronger than what he already was before and kirby best his previous forms. Having a stronger soul makes more sense as its directly stated and it has evidence, that being the presistence of soul forgo
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- Thread starter
- #54
I haven’t even gotten a chance to rebut
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Who said he has a stronger soul? And who had no basis to be stronger?
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- Thread starter
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The soul itself reconstituted after the initial battle. While it’s true Elfilis couldn’t recreate its body until becoming Chaos Elfilis, fact of the matter is that Kirby’s destruction of Fecto Elfilis doesn’t leave Soul Forgo. There’s nothing left behind, despite every other appearance of Soul Forgo leaves him there, be it inside Leon or coming out of Morpho.
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Ant does this a lot wtf
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- Thread starter
- #58
Eh, that I disagree with. The other times Elfilis uses TK, he still has to drag them out of the portal. The portals have to be traveled through, and the planets are approaching the Roche Limit. They’re not there yet. Elfilis still had to drag Popstar in range to trigger that event.
Time’s clearly jank in the forgotten land. Elfilin’s nearly on death’s door and required a newly unbrainwashed Carol to recover, and yet he’s able to reunite with Kirby in a matter of seconds. And Dedede, MK, and the Dees arrived there only moments before Kirby, yet they were all able to have a bunch of mishaps and adventures (MK was able to explore the first four worlds and Dedede got possessed again) that clearly took longer than a few seconds. So if the feat is legit, and idk if it is, it would be uni+ instead of uni.
I’m referring to it as parallel because it looks parallel. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it’s a duck. The world is the same as in the forgotten land despite the fact that even with its astral projection it has no reason to memorize the landscape, even down to the sun being in such a way to grow Tropic Woods to the extent it has, and TW isn’t even a Beast Pack member.
Yeah, I disagree. “Land of Dreams” is way too on the nose for Dream Land. It is still in the realm of theory, however, as there is no confirmation. This I’ll give ya. Also I don’t think Dream Land has ever been referred to as just the kingdom Kirby lives in, except for the anime. Especially given Dream Land 3 was across the entire planet. I think it works on Hyrule rules, in that it refers to whatever it’s talking about at the time.
They just do more damage and can take more hits. But yeah that’s stat amp.
This doesn’t really come off as a reason against it, tbh.
I’m referring to when it plays in Forgo Land as opposed to the second phase of Chaos Elfilis. But even then this is minor as all hell.
See the other response for that, but Elfilin is at the very least 1/2 of Fecto’s soul, and Kirby did yank him out of the fusion.
This is false, as everything, and I do mean everything, supports the fact that Morpho absorbed Forgo. The butterfly disintegrates Soul Forgo. There’s no trapping the soul. Even if he hypothetically didn’t disintegrate Soul Forgo, Soul Forgo is bigger than Morpho, so again, there is no trapping. And the entire Morpho lore is him seeking out souls to devour. Soul Forgo doesn’t come back as disintegrated particles. He just comes back.
It’s probably better to call it a core but it’s a Soul boss. Like it outright does the Soul things, with the cutter attacks and the Drawcia bounce. Also it’s not similar to Nightmare given Kirby had to literally pull it out of Elfilis and both the core and Elfilis can, albeit temporarily, occupy the same space.
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It isn't always easy to keep track well.
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Well, this should have gone in the CRT made before it, the only thing left here was Cal replying.
There are reasons for this to not simply be "Soul Forgo was the most powerful in the room", Soul Forgo was the only soul there and the butterfly sympathizes with evil people.
Even as a theory, the former already assumes butterfly attempts to use his powers on Kirby...and the latter reacts like nothing to this and can smile back at the bug. Otherwise, we don't know which butterflys Kirby faces are Dreaming Birds of Sukhavati, as it is stated that it's a mystery which ones they are.
Your logic is that since we often see their soul when when it isn't shown, it should be destroyed into nothing, but that has many flaws
- Playing the devil's advocate, you're overselling how we saw their soul when we beat up Fecto Leon, he was possessed and Kirby didn't aim to destroy Leon, he beat up the body and the soul possessing it came out while the body was pushed back. This tells us nothing about your point, it's not like we saw twice their soul when a body around was destroyed.
- Even if it was as you portray it, it makes no sense to claim that because of that, we don't seeing their soul when the body is destroyed means the soul had to be destroyed too. A soul is pretty unnoticeable, it can very much not be visible when you destroy someone even if the characters can see souls. Nor is this some rule in Kirby for characters destroyed, you simply feel that because it happened twice to this character, it must apply like this, which doesn't hold any reason even ignoring how it only really happened with Morpho Knight and this is being just 1 time when it happened against 1 time when it didn't happen.
- We were told that Fecto "lost its body and escaped a thought" and were reduced to thoughts, you can't claim their incorporeal self was destroyed when we're told it survived.
- Playing the devil's advocate again on top of the above their incorporeal self didn't just survive but pretty much teleported away into their dreams, this being a justification as to why we didn't see their soul.
- It even makes little sense that we would see their soul when we see nothing but flashes and silhouettes.
Well, the reason in the profile is pretty solid (Fecto died and the planets were still colliding, the portal needed to be closed to stop this), and I can reply to yours here by just saying that Fecto has many ways to use TK and portals. The portals in Popstars dragged in characters and things, with no TK, the portal that dragged Kirby and Elfilin into Fecto Dreams, but not Clawraline, used no TK either. So they can use portals to drag in things with no TK, and I would even argue this would be the case w/o the former feats because again, Fecto died and the feat was still going.
It is true that time is different in that universe than in Kirby's, but that's it. If you create a universe with time that is different from our universe, you still have a 3-A feat if you didn't make the whole timeline from the beginning of time to its end. If you create a universe with no time then that's 3-A. You can't just say that there is some weird stuff with time going on there and that thus it would be Low 2-C, the words put together don't make up any reason for Low 2-C. Imagine if you had to write this down on a profile and you had all the time in the world to make it professional and understandable, what would you even write?
It is a bit manipulative and you shouldn't do it, you know "parallel [something]" has connotations to it and how many pushovers there are to buy into those when you're the one claiming that, you can't give it connotations it didn't earn, you're supposed to argue based on what you have. Saying "If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it’s a duck" it's as easy as saying "bad archeology is done with a spade in one hand and a bible in the other", if you know what I mean, it's your own bias to claim it's a duck/universe with incomplete information, you are also supposed to leave all conclusions like that until you have all the facts in and all skepticism & disagreement heard, anyone who makes conclusions too early and walks around them is bound to undeservedly feed their own biases because of it.
You are putting yourself in charge of the logic by saying that it can't memorize the landscape, sun and its functions. Many points
- If I have psychic powers and create a mind copy of something, I can totally copy things I needed know were part of that something while still missing out other parts I didn't know, it doesn't have to be so black and white as "I either knew everything or knew only what I could see" as you imply
- Even then, it doesn't say that Fecto memorized it, but that it's based on their memories of it, and even other target's memories, nothing states that Fecto even has to currently remember any of the things they create, just that Fecto had to have experiences in the past. That leaves room for pretty much anything (in sight) being created.
- But even if that wasn't the case, you have no idea what's inside the mind of that super being, for all we know they could have had things analyzed better than the average human to create everything they did. So yes, they could have memorized all that.
- Your own take is even worth since everything is still created based on memories as that's stated and yet the scale of this is far, far bigger, everything being like the universe.
- You don't elaborate on it but you're blowing out of proportion how the sun does what suns do. If I'm in a made up dream (or whatever made up dimension), if I touch sand some of it will stick to my skin, if I throw a cat upside down they're gonna land on their paws, if an apple is ripped out of a tree gravity will make it fall. Things do what they're supposed to, and the place has a sun. This doesn't have some further beyond meaning that feeds into the idea of it being universe-sized, it simply gives a minimum size to the place.
Well, theory wise it is objectively wrong as the translations I linked state that the people moved on due to their planet becoming too small for them and Dreamland simply being a small country, which is even smaller than a planet. And again, Dreamland isn't even called Dreamland in Japan.
1 of my blogs links some evidence to this, here Dreamland is stated to be a small country, it's many times stated to be a country, which is mistranslated as simply land, the Kirby 20th Anniversary Encyclopedia states there are other countries outside Dreamland, and Sectonia's plot as you can see in her profile state that she wanted to conquer the country in Dreamland and other countries too.
I don't think Dream Land 3 states the plot to be in Dreamland, even it if it did many texts for games state as much even tho we end up going to space.
Well, this would need evidence to use.
So this is based on something very simple, the "disintegrates" bit. We see Soul Forgo getting turned into energy and broken into parts the butterfly takes in, but that's no the same as getting "disintegrated". If anything, if it was disintegrated there would be no power to gained from a target that doesn't exist, nor would there be energy around to take in inside its little body. Soul Forgo is that energy, and when it's inside Morpho Knight and the latter dies, Soul Forgo is freed. You can't claim that "Soul Forgo is bigger than Morpho" and that so it wouldn't fit, the superpowers going on make it so he can absorb and keep trapped a bigger target, as absorption is no stranger to (Fecto for example did something similar with the animals he consumed, which they still have their souls).
Even by your own logic, Soul Forgo wouldn't have Mid-Godly because it wasn't disintegrated into nothing or atoms, but broken into parts of a reasonable size that someone was gaining power from. Their soul would simply have around the same regen their Chaos form has.
To call it a core would have implitations to its importance and function it didn't leave on its own, it's not like we know it's the same as with Void Termina, whose core form had a small list of info about it. The following part it's based on feelings rather than reasons, it is a Kirby final boss and does things like them, but those who do this are not all Soul bosses and if they are not all of them are real souls, and so it falls flat to say it's a soul even playing by those reasons.
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I did this. It contains a bunch of Forgotten Land feats, including a High 5-A feat from Fecto Elfilis. It's just a supporting feat, but I also got got him Stellar lifting strength (again, it's a supporting feat, but it's pretty close to what tier we currently have Kirby characters at)
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Where does this idea of Morpho merely trapping souls come from? Are we not reading the same lore? I'm confused about that
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Absorption isn't destruction. Morpho Knight clearly absorb his victims.
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This is the Figure of Morpho Knight, the replacement of the boss fight pasue screens. I included the Japanese version as well. I'd talk about what we learn about the butterfly from the novel focused on it but I don't know about it's canoncity.
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The novel is canon but this wiki hasn't accepted it yet, so you can't use it
He deconstructs them too
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You as well, Everything12 and QuasiYuri.
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No novel is canon, and the people so far I have seen argue for it have been frankly childish for their reasons.
This fails to see something. Deconstruct a target doesn't 100% always mean the next time we see said target in 1 piece then they had to reform by themselves. They could have, yes, it's a case by case thing, but it is also common for what was done to them to do that for them, meaning no regen coming from the target. The deconstruction could have been for cheap shock or the way for transportation to be done.
In this case, it is proven to be the case because Fecto was still there when Morpho's body wasn't, therefore they didn't need to regenerate and they were inside Morpho, aka trapped, you can't just say
when it's something we see, nor is it a headcanon to point out what's happening, if anything it is a headcanon to say Soul Fecto has Mid-Godly because they were reduced to nothing off-screen and reformed from that off-screen.
Even in the lore we already had, there are things that point out that his other victim, Galacta Knight, wasn't reduced to nothing at all; What the butterfly did was said to be a fusion, it happened because the butterfly sympathized with him, and Morpho was still gaining power from what he did day after day until at one point making all of it its own.
Here's a translation, it doesn't vary a lot from what we got. Those novels are done by a writer who covers many other franchises and doesn't work with writers for Kirby games, his unique interpretations of things and unique derivations & creations are what any fan can come up with. Still, the real reason as to why they're not canon is because they were never said to be canon and both games & novels contradict each other all the time in massive ways.
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Except this wasn’t offscreen? It’s “Morpho absorbs/feasts on Forgo” “Kirby fights and defeats Morpho” “Forgo appears out of Morpho’s scattering remains”. There’s no cinematic cuts happening at all. Like with all due respect it does sound like youre the one using headcanon and ignoring what’s happening on screen instead of going with the idea that the butterfly that eats souls…ate Forgo’s soul.
Ultimate Choice isn’t canon. It’s a What If. Morpho never absorbed Galacta Knight. For all we know, Galacta Knight could be dead in that what if.
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The soul was turned to energy that the butterfly absorbed, being energy=/=being reduced to nothing. And you're saying youself that the soul was already there in 1 piece, meaning no onscreen regeneration being shown. Soul Forgo would have need to have been reduced to nothing while inside Morpho's body and regenerated from said nothing while still inside Morpho's body, meaning both are offscreen.
As QuasiYuri said before, (soul) absorption isn't destruction, I'm sure in some verses it always is, but that's no rule.
I know it's not canon. As you can see, I was replying to someone saying "are we reading the same lore?" by pointing out previous lore for the bug.
That canon wise, but the rest of what you say there is beyond odd, noncanon things like that still give powers to characters and characteristics of what they can do, when we're told that the butterfly sympathized with the target he "ate", fused with him, and still gained on power from that days after this, those are all things to consider. Did the butterfly even sympathize with GK? No, but he's evil enough to do that or something among those lines. Did the butterfly fused with GK? No, but he can fuse with targets. Can he gain further power from tragets he absorbs? Yes. If it goes against the idea of the butterfly having erased Soul Forgo then too bad.
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I have looked at nothing in this CRT, and I refuse to until I play through Forgotten Land myself. Apologies.
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Okay. No problem.
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Smart choice. Wouldn't wish Forgotten Land spoilers on my worst enemy
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Should Fecto Forgo have Multi-Stellar lifting strength when mutated for grabbing Elfilin such that he couldn't escape his grip?
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No, elfilin hasn't been shown to be comparable to people with multi stellar LS, not until the final act that is
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Elfilin's ability to withstand Chaos Elfilis' black hole is before the piece of it returns to Elfilin, so I'm not sure how this doesn't work. Elfilin doesn't get any stronger before then
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While we're not told he gets any stronger, that could definitely still happen as he went from losing to minor enemies to being even with the final boss, with no training or fighting, heck he could have even jumped on Fecto Elfilis' level at the moment he felt like powering up the truck.
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