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Challenging Unicron and Primus as multiversal

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Iustitia_Prime

Iustitia_Prime

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So for the longest time I've seen it asserted on numerous forums and wikis that Unicron and Primus are mutliverse busters. And yet, as a Transformers fan for over 25 years, I've never seen anything approaching this level of power from either. I've never seen a cartoon, comic, manga or even toy bio that suggested this level of power.

I've come across many claims purporting this but when asked to back it up all I'm given are out of context quotes or scans of feats or statements for other characters that Unicron and Primus should supposedly be scaled to. Just to be clear, I'm looking for any instance of Unicron and/or Primus destroying a multiverse - that is more than one universe - in a single instance.

I'm not looking for the dubious Unicron singularity or Great Black Hole. That may have been multiversal in reach but it would have taken a decent amount of time to have actually destroyed the multiverse. On top of that, it's not even a feat of Unicron's, rather a result of throwing off the balance of order and chaos, as illustrated by the fact that it pulled other Unicrons into it. It's not a feat of Unicron and is a result of him being destroyed.

I'm also not accepting the scan of the FunPub comic in which the Star Saber is said to be able to collapse the multiversal stack. Firstly because it's dubious as that power level may very well only be capable if tainted by evil according to the writing, as the Star Saber is normally star-level. Second because that means that Unicron and the Fallen are not mutliversal because were they as powerful as such a tainted Star Saber they wouldn't need it to collapse the multiverse. Third because there's no proof that I've seen to show that Unicron or Primus are more powerful than the Star Saber. That's an assumption based on power scaling which again wouldn't make sense if the Star Saber's mutliversal power is not its actual power but the result of tainting from dark sparks. Also, Unicron has officially been defeated by the Thirteen, which is the entire premise of how he became the Earth's core in Transformers: Prime. He got his ass stomped and his comatose body was sent drifting through space collecting debris and becoming Earth. Lastly, the Star Saber wasn't made by Primus, but by Solus Prime with her magic Forge. It's not a good assumption that just because the Thirteen Primes were made by Primus that Unicron and Primus are easily scalable to them and their artifacts.

I'm also not accepting that Unicron and Primus are multiverse busters just because Unicron has eaten many universes. He's eaten or destroyed countless ones, no doubt. But in canon he does this over time, normally planet to planet. Eating millions of universes over time is not the same as busting a single universe or multiverse at once.

Can anyone provide one instance of multiverse-busting by Unicron or Primus? The most powerful feats of theirs that I'm aware of are them shaking the universe while fighting in their pre-retcon god forms in the old UK comics and Primus creating Alpha Q's universe whose size I'm not aware of. Please don't give me out of context statements, scans and power scaling. The most multiversal things I've seen either do is pull Autobots and Decepticons from across the multiverse to fight the Universe War.
 
Well, it would likely take a greater time than the timespan the universe has existed just to destroy a single galaxy if he devoured them one planet and one star at a time. I don't see it as logically reasonable to assume that unicron can destroy countless universes without at the very least doing so one at a time. I may be wrong however.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, it would likely take a greater time than the timespan the universe has existed just to destroy a single galaxy if he devoured them one planet and one star at a time. I don't see it as logically reasonable to assume that unicron can destroy countless universes without at the very least doing so one at a time. I may be wrong however.
Click to expand...

Unicron has demonstrated the capacity to destroy galaxies from the shockwaves he produces while traveling in planet mode. The general point I'm trying to make is that Unicron's greatest feats never approach universe or multiverse busting, and the only time he's confirmed to have eaten universes it's either eating planets and stars over a period of time or just stated without any time frame at all. Though even in the cases without timeframes it's usually clear that he's a world-hopper like Galactus.

Also it's important to remember Hasbro's irrational retcon making Unicron a "multiversal singularity" which means that each universe has a Unicron but they're all manifestations of the same being. This explains why so many universes can be destroyed by one being. Sometimes there are Unicron's that aren't manifestations of the chaos bringer. The Unicrons of the G1 movie from the 80's, the Robots In Disguise cartoon, and the Transformers: Animated cartoon officially are non-singularity Unicrons meaning they have his characteristics but are not connected to the multiversal singularity and are usually weaker as such.

That said, even in his pre-retcon god form, Unicron is shown destroying the original universe and it suggests from the art that it was over a period of time. This is kind of confirmed by the fact that he missed many fragments of said universe which ended up reacting with eachother and causing a new big bang, creating the modern universe. Unicron destroying the universe in his god form gives us no actual time frame and he could have been at it for years.

I'm not suggesting Unicron isn't powerful. He slept through the above-mentioned big bang in the 80's comics. His fight with Primus did cause the universe to shake. But it's still not the same as being able to bust a universe under his own power let alone a multiverse. In every canon, whether it's the original G1 comics, the Dreamwave comics, et cetera, Unicron is portrayed as attacking worlds either out of a need to energize himself, increase his power, or out of hatred of creation. He's never been shown wiping out a universe at once.

The closest he gets to that is scaling off of a feat of Primus who in the Energon cartoon created a universe for Alpha Q's planets which may not even be a full universe or unquanitifiable. But even then that's an act of creation by a god of creation/light/order. That said, assuming they're perfectly equal in abilities that still only makes Unicron a universe-buster at most.
 
Hmm. What you are saying sounds reasonable, but I would like to wait for other people to add their perspectives as well.
 
I will ask the other admins for input about this.
 
I know nothing about franchise. Can you make short summary? Not this wall of text, short reasons why do you think they are multiversal.
 
A6colute said:
I know nothing about franchise. Can you make short summary? Not this wall of text, short reasons why do you think they are multiversal.
Click to expand...
I do not think they are multiversal, which is why I'm asking for proof to the contrary.
 
This seems pretty reasonable. The only things I can really think of is if Unicron or Primus were ever compared to the scarcely mentioned higher beings, such as the Alternity. Also, does the singularity every version of Unicron is a manifestation of have any feats? Finally, when Primus created the Primes, was it with his own power or via an external source?
 
It is suggested that Primus and Unicron's nature as the embodiments of good and evil are necessary for the stability of the multiverse. Also, according to "Fallen" (An episode of Transformers Cybertron), the "Unicron Singularity" threatened the entire multiverse, created when Primus tried to imprison Unicron in a star. Primus then sealed it away when the Autobots restored his full power.

According to a Hasbro Q&A, Primus created the Thirteen under his own power.

However, SeiryuShin appears to know Transformers the best, so we should probably wait for his input.
 
I know little about the franchise, so I will base my opinion on this thread.

Iustitia Prime's arguments seem well founded, and indeed warrant a downgrade for the mentioned character profile, in case of absence of proof for justification of current ratings.

However, in my experience, SeiryuShi knows most about the Transformers franchise, and would be the one most aptly suited to help this thread reach a verdict.
 
They're saying that they're not multiversal.

Ah... sorry.

I do not think they are multiversal, which is why I'm asking for proof to the contrary.

Well... I don't know franchise and cannot say really they multiversal or not.
 
What I think confuses people is the term 'multiversal'. In Hasbro's canon, the multiverse has many characters such as Grimlock, Ironhide, Starscream and so on. And there are numerous universes that have versions of these characters. However they're still different people than their alternate universe dopplegangers. This is not the same for characters Hasbro calls 'multiversal singularities'. Characters such as Unicron, Primus and the Thirteen Primes exist across the multiverse and, while they operate according to the laws of whatever universe they appear in, they're still singular persons. Every Primus is the same Primus, every Unicron is the same Unicron, and every Vector Prime is the same Vector Prime.

Except when that isn't true. Some universes, such as the G1 cartoon, have Unicrons that are anomolies and share characteristics with the others but aren't connected to the overall Unicron singularity making them nothing but giant robots. Likewise, some universes do not have a Primus analog at all. In some universes, the Thirteen Primes have different members. It's a confusing mess, but this is the result of Hasbro's retcon merging all universes together.

That said. Multiversal singularity does not equate to multiverse-buster. Another clarification should be the meaning of "multiverse-level". Neither Unicron or Primus are multiversal if you mean destructive capacity or attack potency. They are however multiversal in range as they have the power to reach through time and space. In the Transformers Universe series, Unicron gets his ass kicked and winds up stuck between dimensions, forcing him to abduct Transformers throughout the multiverse to feed him energon. Primus likewise pulls warriors from time and space to fight on his behalf against Unicron. But that's the pinnacle of their multiversality.

The biggest feat of either is shaking the universe while fighting in their energy forms in the UK comics, which is technically a combined feat since it took both to do it. I will correct myself, however, about Primus creating the universe for Alpha Q's planets. Primus did not do that and it wasn't a universe. It was a pocket dimension created by negatively and positively charged energon reacting. So that's one less feat for Primus and one less thing for Unicron to get scaled to.
 
I suggest we go by the edits I made to the Primus page before they were reversed and I got blocked for "adding incorrect information". There's no instance of Unicron and Primus demonstrating universe-level power in modern canon. Pre-retcon in the old UK comics they were just powerful enough combined to shake the universe in their brawl in their god/energy forms. Each version of Unicron and Primus may be the same character (usually) but they manifest differently by canon. This is how I structured the Primus page:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Primus?diff=129228&oldid=128415

And you'll notice I actually make references and go by feats, not hype. I mean we could keep riding the multiverse train of powerscaling that other sites go by but I would rather not buff characters with lies. I love Transformers and have my whole life, but it's time to stop wanking. Primus and Unicron should be revised and their stats should be segregated by appearance. That's my suggestion.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
This seems pretty reasonable. The only things I can really think of is if Unicron or Primus were ever compared to the scarcely mentioned higher beings, such as the Alternity. Also, does the singularity every version of Unicron is a manifestation of have any feats? Finally, when Primus created the Primes, was it with his own power or via an external source?
Click to expand...
I'm not aware of Primus or Unicron interacting with the Alternity in the minute fiction they're in. However I do know that the Alternity function on a 10-dimensional plane of existance.

Unicron is an abstract of chaos and fury, but no this abstract itself doesn't have feats unless you count the god/energy form he fights in during his UK origin story but then that pre-dates the retcon. In many comics and cartoons Unicron's essence can cause madness over an entire planet or possses characters. But I don't believe that's the abstract so much as the essence or energy that powers his manifested physical forms. As has been stated, removal of Unicron can cause reality-alterity black holes but this is not a feat so much as an after-effect of changing the uiversal balance.

Primus created the Primes under his own power. Their weapons, however, were forged by a single Prime, Solus Prime, using her magic Forge. And even the ability of the Star Saber to collapse the multiverse, assuming it's not hyperbole, is completely contingent upon it being corrupted by a dark spark as it's usually a star-level weapon hence the name. Which is why it's even a big deal to begin with for Unicron or the Fallen to possess it, which itself proves they don't have such power.
 
And my contention, for those reading, is that none of his posts constituted proof of his claims and are taken out of context or rely on scaling derrived from leaps in logic.

Basically the evidence of a multiversal Unicron relies of three points:

1. The black hole that was warping the universe, which wasn't under his own power but a result of his death. Unicron in fact was trapped in this singularity; he does not have the power to do what that black hole did.

2. His having eaten 22% of universes, which while impressive is without timeframe and almost certainly not in one shot and all instances of him in fiction portray him as a world-eater like Galactus.

3. The claim that Unicron must be more powerful than a corrupted Star Saber, which is stupid since Unicron's been beaten by the Thirteen Primes and the Saber only has multiversal power if corrupted which is why Unicron even getting it is a big deal and Unicron thus doesn't have comparable power.

But really, ignoring out of context scans, or misrepresenting quotes from a Transformers wiki, or abusing powerscaling... all that aside? Unicron has never shown the level of power people claim he has. He's never busted an entire universe let alone a multiverse. The only instance of him even approaching universe level was in his pre-retcon god/energy form from the Marvel/UK comics where he destroyed *most* of the original universe over an unspecified timeframe and shook the universe fighting Primus meaning it happened under their combined might. And this was before being trapped in a mortal body or the retcon changing his origins.

In every appearance Unicron makes he's a world-hopper who either moves in from another universal stream or has been destroying a local universe for ages. If nobody can provide an instance of Unicron busting a universe or multiverse under his own power I'll consider this issue settled. And honestly why wouldn't this place want to get out in front of this issue and set the record straight where other vs forums and wikis failed? Unicron and Primus may be multiversal singularities but they are not multiverse-busters. We need to take a stand against wank and misrepresentation of facts.
 
Still though, we should wait for SeiryuShin's approval, given that he knows Transformers the best. Where is he anyway? I figured he would have responded to this already.

Also, what about what I wrote earlier?
 
The Everlasting said:
It is suggested that Primus and Unicron's nature as the embodiments of good and evil are necessary for the stability of the multiverse. Also, according to "Fallen" (An episode of Transformers Cybertron), the "Unicron Singularity" threatened the entire multiverse, created when Primus tried to imprison Unicron in a star. Primus then sealed it away when the Autobots restored his full power.
According to a Hasbro Q&A, Primus created the Thirteen under his own power.

However, SeiryuShin appears to know Transformers the best, so we should probably wait for his input.
Click to expand...
Yes, both are required for the stability of the multiverse. This does not translate to being multiverse-busters. They're multiversal singularities which according to Hasbro canon means they tend to exist across all universal streams as the same being. But as was shown when Unicron was destroyed in the Unicron Trilogy, Unicron didn't create the Grand Black Hole under his own power; it was a result of the universe becoming unbalanced and the star Unicron was in collapsed. On top of that the singularity pulled other Unicrons in from other points in time and space. This is why the entire multiverse was threatened; Unicron was being removed from all realities which hugely threw off the multiverse's balance.

This is not a feat of Unicron's and only happened because he was destroyed. In fact Unicron himself was helpless and trapped in the singularity until he was freed by his heralds in the comics. And while it's impressive that Primus destroyed the singularity it does not equate the multiversal power. The black hole was only a multiversal *threat* meaning that over an unspecified timeframe it would erase all timelines. But it's not as rapid as you might think. The entire Transformers: Cybertron cartoon takes place while Cybertron is right next to it and it goes unscathed. Which makes the black hole even less impressive because the Japanese dub, Galaxy Force, had the planet eaten in the first episode which was the whole point of them evacuating in the first place. That said, even inside the black hole Cybertron was fine.

The Grand Black Hole is impressive because it emerged from the balance of reality being thrown off and its potential to erase reality. All it actually did was cause "reality warping" which helped explain away Hasbro's continuity problems which resulted when they tried to make Transformers: Cybertron a sequel to Trasformers: Energon.
 
The Everlasting said:
Still though, we should wait for SeiryuShin's approval, given that he knows Transformers the best. Where is he anyway? I figured he would have responded to this already.
Click to expand...
Well I hope he makes it good since he blocked me for two weeks for disagreeing with him. If he has nothing to counter what I've presented here then I'm not the one who was "adding incorrect information", he was.

As an admin I'm sure he's busy so I'll wait with everyone else for him to respond. By I have the sneaking suspicion that the arguments I've rebutted here are all he has to offer.

As it stands I'm convinced that the current rankings are wrong, but since I'm blocked from changing them I need an admission that he was wrong or proof that I am. I don't expect the latter.
 
Ok it's been at least two days and we haven't heard a peep from SeiryuShin. I know I have no standing here, but if I may be sold bold, I don't think he knows any more about Transformers than I or any other fan does based on what he's presented. Are there any other 'experts' on Transformers here? Again, I'm a nobody and he's an admin, so I'll wait if I have to. But I seriously don't know what makes SeiryuShin an expert on Transformers when A) he's perpetuating inaccurate information that a quick skimming of the TFWiki would rebuke and B) the Transformers pages on this wiki are in less than stellar condition.

Again, who the hell am I? I have no right to make demands for changes to any page on a site that isn't mine. However, up until my two week block I was cleaning up the Transformers pages to better represent their abilities and stats. I have made clear that I do not intend to keep working on the lesser characters until the most powerful characters, namely Primus and Unicron, are revised. I'm now blocked from changing those pages and was previously blocked for two weeks by SeiryuShin for "adding incorrect information" which I've demonstrated to be untrue.

So is there any other Transformers fan/expert on this page besides SeiryuShin who can either confirm or debate my points if he doesn't have the time or will to do so? There is much work to be done for Transformers pages but as apex characters Unicron and Primus need to be fixed first. I know I'm getting repetitive but I was blocked for two weeks for improving Primus' article, my rebuttals on Unicron's page have gone unchallenged, my edits on Primus' page were reverted, buried and editing that page has been blocked for me, and my arguments here against what I suggest to be an admin propagating misinformation have gone unchallenged.

Something's got to give. If SeiryuShin can't back up multiverse-busting Unicron or Primus, who here can? And respectfully, if the answer is nobody, I think that's reason enough to discount it as untrue until proven otherwise.
 
Well, I think that what you are saying seems to make sense, but don't wish to start a conflict, so we will probably have to wait for a few days more. Sorry.
 
I don't see any problems with @Iustitia Prime's points personally. But if Seiryu Shin does have extensive knowledge on the topic as well, then I suppose it would be best to hear his input, even if it takes a day or two.
 
I have talked with SeiryuShin about that given that your arguments appear solid, and most people here find them reasonable, it is not okay to block you again for adjusting the profiles. Given the lacklustre state of the Transformers profiles, I also believe that it would be beneficial for the wiki if you started to work on them.
 
So, do the rest of you think that it is okay if I return Primus to Iustitia's version, and then let him start updating the other Transformers profiles with his apparently considerable knowledge about the franchise?
 
All right. I will return Primus to Iustitia's version. He should feel free to continue with Unicron and revising the other Transformers character profiles.
 
As a neutral party, and a layman in the Transformers franchise, I would like to state that I find no flaws with Iustitia Prime's suggestions, and would also prefer the profiles to be fixed.

I would like to wait to hear SeiryuShi's opinion on the matter, however in the eventuality that he does not respond, I agree to revising the Transformers pages as per what Iustitia has suggested.
 
He has had a long time to respond now though.
 
Noted.

In that case, I agree with the current course of action, of allowing Iustitia Prime to carry out the revision as he feels necessary (with valid proof and explanations, of course).
 
I greatly appreciate this decision/consensus. Should SeiryuShin eventually respond I will gladly make my case again. As for now I'll fix errors of my own of the Primus page and then work on Unicron.
 
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