Better Tier For Kirby/Kirby Villains Discussion

[Fastsword88]

Actually, according to repeated official comments from Tom Brevoort, who is the highest Executive Editor of Marvel Comics, and decides the official Marvel power rankings, our system of automatically assigning the same combat speed as flight speed to characters, is one that the creators and editors themselves do not remotely subscribe to.
Regardless, from what Game did Kirby fight Master Hand? If it is Super Smash Brothers, we do not count that.

I see. Though, it's very likely that applies only to Marvel/DC comics, and I'm willing to use the standard logical speed system even for Marvel/DC comics despite what Tom may try to say, as sometimes even what editors may try to state (via the edited stories or not) contradict their work and the feats they give to their characters (Eg : Limiting Spidey to 10 tons even though he lifted 50+ tons on occasions and even stopped a speeding train). Scientifically, it's logically impossible to have a combat and reaction speed lower than travel speed, and I can say with all confidance that Nintendo never bothered to make a difference between combat speed and travel speed during the making of a game. In most worlds of fiction I've seen, only one type of speed is considered. So it's reasonable to use the standard speed system (combat/reaction = travel) for all worlds of fiction that don't bring up the combat speed fallacy (same goes for Marvel/DC unless specified in a certain fight scene).

And like Skodwarde said, Master Hand & Crazy Hand appear as the penultimate bosses of "Kirby & The Amazing Mirror".

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

And as for the whole outlier thing concering Magolor, i don't think it is an outlier because...

A: The nature of the game is flat out cartoonish(except for the final bosses looking like they should NOT be in a kids game)


B: The main plot is usually "Kirby must save the world from the villain of the day".


C: Kirby's track record against his foes is squeaky clean as far as i know.

 

[Antvasima]

It is also logically impossible to not go insane from perceiving time at a proportionate rate of speed to MFTL+ travel, as it would feel like any trip through the universe took at least billions of years. Yet we never seem to bring up that inherent part of the problem with our supposition.

Basically, in this case, most fictional characters that I am familiar with do not remotely exhibit FTL or higher movement or perception speed in regular encounters simply because they can fly that swiftly.

Fiction writers and editors as a whole tend to gloss over the two facts that we have jist discussed for suspension of disbelief.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

I'm not focusing too much on Kirby's speed aspect(i can't calc to save my life), just his destructive capacity and powerscale.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah. I am not talking about Kirby, just in general. We cannot disregard his general speed feats without disregarding lots of others after all.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Hmm. I get that. But if we're also discussing Kirby's speed,(which i really don't wanna do) should i edit the title to make this a general Kirby discussion?

 

[Antvasima]

No. No. I will not divert the discussion any further. Sorry.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Alright. So where does everybody stand on Kirby(and Magolor for that matter)?

 

[Fastsword88]

Question being did Master Hand hold back or not? I really can't say...Kirby was also fighting Crazy Hand, so we have to take that into consideration.

Very likely not. Master Hand was bloodlusted and wanted to defend the last mirror shard (Dark Mind forced him to), he even attacked Kirby as a mid-boss few times before teaming up with Crazy Hand, clearly showing that he really wanted to stop Kirby. Crazy Hand's background describes him as erratic, mad, and a lover of destruction so he definitely didn't hold back, and he should have the same level of power as Master Hand http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Crazy_Hand

And for the reasons I'm sure Kirby's victory over Magolor isn't an outlier, there's of course A, B, C, and 2 other reasons :

D : Kirby defeated other universe level beings just as powerful as Magolor

E : Kirby was almost never pushed to his limits in any of his latest fights, he gets out victorious from battles with no signs of tiredness

Also, concerning Kirby's speed, no need to calculate anything (Though I already did a calculation above if you feel to check it out/use it for something), I simply pointed out that Kirby needs a greater speed classement as well according to his feats, MFTL+ without the Warp Star.


To Antvasima : The time perception problem is very possibly true, but characters seem to outright ignore this fact, though they still maintain their FTL+ perception as they don't bump into any celestial object during the acceleration/travel. If a character from a world of fiction that doesn't bring up the combat fallacy demonstrates weak combat speed despite once proving he's more capable than that while traveling, it can simply be written off as a case of inconsistent low-end feat/PIS. So apparently it's better to stick with the standard logical speed system in a world of fiction that doesn't follow/bring up the combat speed fallacy.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we were going to avoid this topic, but I strongly disagree. I think that a character must prove that its regular movement speed is equal to or higher than its flight speed to be listed as such. I think that far from all fictions follow the battleboard fan-convenience that you are talking about.

For example, when Thor takes a trip through outer space he preceives time at a little above human level speed, and when he is on Earth he is officially only able to move at the same speed as the Hulk, who is below Spider-Man in speed.

Again, according to my experience, fiction generally does not adapt to our convenience in this respect.

However, we will have to agree to disagree and return to the topic at hand.

 

[Fastsword88]

Alright. So where does everybody stand on Kirby(and Magolor for that matter)?

In terms of attack potency, I'd peg Kirby, Magolor, Dark Mind, and Dark Crafter at universe level (3-A).

In terms of speed, I'd peg them at MFTL+.

If you need any explanation/feat breakdown on any of these characters, I'll be glad to help.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Personally if you feel that strongly about Kirby's speed, i suggest making a seperate thread. I personally can't discuss speed most of the time and i'm trying to focus on the topic at hand regarding his power.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

In terms of attack potency, I'd peg Kirby, Magolor, Dark Mind, and Dark Crafter at universe level (3-A).

In terms of speed, I'd peg them at MFTL+.

If you need any explanation/feat breakdown on any of these characters, I'll be glad to help.


Also i have Kirby & Magolor at 3-B

 

[Antvasima]

I will probably eventually suggest making a clearer distinction between travel speed and movement speed in a separate thread, but for now, does anybody have further input regarding Kirby's power level?

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Not really other than scaling on Magolor(multi galaxy) and it not being an outlier(due to the reasons me and Fastsword listed).

I think i've exhausted most of my words tho i can continue for the long haul if y'all need me to.

 

[Antvasima]

I want input from people other than you and Fastsword.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Well looks like i'm in this for the long haul. (Puts on game face)

SHOWTIME!

 

[Fastsword88]

Personally if you feel that strongly about Kirby's speed, i suggest making a seperate thread. I personally can't discuss speed most of the time and i'm trying to focus on the topic at hand regarding his power.

I see. Alright, let's leave the speed topic for another day. It was nice to have a conversation with you guys.

Regarding Kirby's power, like I said, he ranges from 3-B to 3-A.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

I see. Alright, let's leave the speed topic for another day. It was nice to have a conversation with you guys.

Regarding Kirby's power, like I said, he ranges from 3-B to 3-A.


Good talking to you too. We do need moar opinions tho. I'd hate for this thread to be buried....

(note to self, bump thread every now and then to avoid burial)

 

[Awesome_Betterhero]

Yes, Kirby is 3-A, proven by Magolor/Dark Crafter powerscaling.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

3-A is an iffy fit for me quite honestly. I mean yes, there are statements in the game supporting it but...

Shown feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Statements

 

[Fastsword88]

3-A is an iffy fit for me quite honestly. I mean yes, there are statements in the game supporting it but...
Shown feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Statements

Magolor's dimension busting, Dark Mind's dimension flipping, and Claycia/Dark Crafter's dimension creating are established feats.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Magolor's dimension busting, Dark Mind's dimension flipping, and Claycia/Dark Crafter's dimension creating are established feats.


The Magolor dimension bust did nuke multiple galaxies, but i'm having trouble penning it as a full universe. Can i see the other 2 feats please?

 

[Fastsword88]

Something interesting : In the french version of the game, the universe Magolor nuked is called "Parallel Dimension", which shows that it's a parallel universe to Kirby's.

You want to see the 2 other feats ? Sure :

Dark Mind flipping the entirity of the mirror dimension (which also happens to be another parallel universe to Kirby's) : http://giant.gfycat.com/OblongDisguisedBandicoot.gif

This is exactly the same dimension-flipping technique Magolor used too : http://giant.gfycat.com/WealthyUnequaledHydatidtapeworm.gif

And of course there's the SSB trophies describing MH as the creator of the SSB universe (it was a fact from a legit background), yet was forced to be a servant by Dark Mind in the Kirby game. Now onto Dark Crafter :

Claycia is the creator of Seventopia (http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Claycia), which is an entire universe as well, the background explains it enough :

But she's not as powerful as Dark Crafter who took over and made her a slave. But of course, Kirby arrives, beats Claycia and proceeds to kill Dark Crafter.

Pretty sure these feats qualify as 3-A.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, I'm finally back. Here's some input.

Regarding Magolor. As I've said, he's the one villain I am fully in agreement with putting at 3-B, possibly 3-A. He has feats to back this up.

I am not sure Kirby or anyone else can scale to him, as this is vastly different from his normal showings. It does not matter if Kirby is "cartoonish". He still has normal showings.

Master Hand if very clearly not universal in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror. We have been over this. Simply making a cameo as a boss does not mean he suddenly gets universal scaling and that Dark Mind scales to him. This is incredibly faulty, especially since Dark Mind on his own has no universe level feats. Flipping the gravity and background of a battlefield is not even close to a universe level feat. This is absurd.

After a quick google search, I discovered that Seventopia, the world Claycia created, consists of seven planets. This is not even close to universal. Dark Crafter also only stole the colors from Popstar, so I am also having doubts that he is universal.

Again, please show me Dark Daroach flying to the center of the galaxy and then please prove he can apply this speed in combat.

Believing Kirby to travel billions of times faster than light while nonchalantly walking due to the background changing after he enters a door is absurd. This is also a direct quote from the Kirby wiki.

"Doors are portals that allow Kirby to move from one area to another."

That alone debunks the entire theory that he traveled that distance on foot.

Kirby's MFTL feat with Dark Crafter seems to be legitimate, but he needed to be in rocket form to do so. It does not apply to his normal form.

So far, little has been shown to support Magolor not being the most powerful villain in the franchise by far, and I will need far more solid proof to upgrade Kirby to a MFTL+ Universe buster than faulty scaling and assumptions.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Something interesting : In the french version of the game, the universe Magolor nuked is called "Parallel Dimension", which shows that it's a parallel universe to Kirby's.

You want to see the 2 other feats ? Sure :

Dark Mind flipping the entirity of the mirror dimension (which also happens to be another parallel universe to Kirby's) : http://giant.gfycat.com/OblongDisguisedBandicoot.gif

This is exactly the same dimension-flipping technique Magolor used too : http://giant.gfycat.com/WealthyUnequaledHydatidtapeworm.gif

And of course there's the SSB trophies describing MH as the creator of the SSB universe (it was a fact from a legit background), yet was forced to be a servant by Dark Mind in the Kirby game. Now onto Dark Crafter :

Claycia is the creator of Seventopia (http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Claycia), which is an entire universe as well, the background explains it enough :

But she's not as powerful as Dark Crafter who took over and made her a slave. But of course, Kirby arrives, beats Claycia and proceeds to kill Dark Crafter.

Pretty sure these feats qualify as 3-A.

First of all, i can't quantify if that red void is a universe. Plus...


Outright Destruction\=/Dimension Flipping

As for Claycia, i know i'm supposed to be supporting Kirby and all, but i can't show bias.


And multiple planets does not a universe make.


I still stand by my original stance that Kirby is an FTL galaxy-multi galaxy buster.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for your input ATAI. I agree with your analysis.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

It would seem we are at an impasse. Let's keep this thread open until we can come to a full conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

Not really. I am sorry to say this, but we are admins (and likely considerably less biased on the issue), whereas you are not.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Crud.....my best explanation is too basic then.....gonna have to go back to the drawing board.....wish Fastsword would've offered me more concise feats....


And i would respectfully ask to not be accused of bias as i myself have disagreed with 2 Kirby feats shown.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Sorry about that, but Fastsword really does seem biased in his evaluation, going by what ATAI told us above.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Well my best argument atm is Kirby beat Magolor and therefore is stronger than Magolor so imma probably search for more concise feats and stuff. I should probably bookmark this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I do not wish to accuse anyone of extreme bias, but as I have stated, many of the feats shown are blown extremely out of proportion or are taken out of context. However, as I have said about Magolor, he is a legitimate Tier 3.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then the issue is whether we should consider Kirby beating him as an outlier or not? If it strongly contradicts Kirby's general power level, we probably should.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Now the thing is....(thankfully i have this bookmarked and unless there's a no necromancy rule i should be fine)....was Kirby's victory pver Magolor legit or a fluke? Which was my original point to begin with. Hopefully i have all the time in the world to find better Kirby feats....

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Considering I have yet to see proof of any other legit Universe busters in the series, it is likely an outlier unless I am shown otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for your input.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I will also point out it was not only Kirby who took down Magolor. He had help from Meta-Knight, King Dedede, Bandana Dee, Lor Starcutter (Magolor's ship), and whatever the name of that 4-headed dragon was.

 

[Unclechairman]

So, Magolor is going to be the Solaris of Kirby?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Probably.