Ben 10: Tier 4 Downgrade

[Ghengiroo115]

The Introduction

Hi y’all, originally I was gonna save this for if my eventual tackle at universal Ben 10 top tiers ends up being rejected, however I realised the Highbreed wouldn’t be affected by that upgrade so they’d still be stuck with the 4-B/4-A weaponry that I’ve recently realised I have issues with. Also I figured posting a downgrade for a set of characters immediately after an upgrade failed would look pretty bad lol

For context, the Highbreed’s and Galvan’s weaponry were both upgraded earlier this year to “at least 4-B, possibly 4-A” based on this statement (0:54) that says “only” the Galvan has the weaponry to stand up to the Highbreed. This later ended up making Ascalon level characters such as Dagon or Ultimate Way Big this tier, as Ascalon is a very powerful piece of Galvan technology that was also the only thing capable of stopping Dagon. Now I have no issue with this in itself, hell I fully supported it when it first came out, however what I do now have an issue with is which weaponry they scale to. I’ll be covering each one from what I believe are the least to most logical to scale to.

Btw, some credit goes to @GeneralSol16. Some of these points were either mentioned to me by them or are points I only came up with while talking with them on the General Discussion Thread.

The Weapons

1. The Entropy Pump

• The Entropy Pump was the device created by Professor Paradox that caused him to initially scatter across space-time, and was also what Aggregor used to merge with the Andromeda Five. According to Gaster Paradox himself, attempting to bomb the Entropy Pump would cause the destruction of reality for many light years. This is where the 4-A feat comes from. The big issue with the Entropy Pump is simply that it is not a weapon. Idk what it would really be classified as tbh (I guess a portal?), but it ain’t a weapon. The 4-A stuff is just a side effect of it getting bombed since the machine is so incredibly powerful with it able to rip a hole in the space-time continuum, and Paradox is the only one who even knows how powerful this machine truly is. Also even if it was a weapon, it’s way too destructive to use against the Highbreed and could risk destroying inhabited planets. Oh also, can’t believe I only just realised this after writing three of these paragraphs, but there’s only one Entropy Pump. Good luck taking out an entire galaxy-wide fleet with a single bomb.

2. Element X

• Element X is a substance that, when combined with “Bisyinthium Alloy” (the alien name for iron ore), has the power to destroy the entire solar system. The biggest issue with using this as an argument is simply that it’s nigh-unfeasible to actually use against the Highbreed. In order to gain the full 4-B explosion, you need a lot of iron ore to be melted down and purified first before you combine Element X with it. Just slapping it together with no prep is going to make a much less impressive explosion. This explosion is also instant (meaning it needs a lot of preparation to be placed in a non-risky place) and the process to make the explosion 4-B takes time (meaning it’s essentially impossible to use against an armada that these people don’t even know is coming). Combine all that with the fact that iron ore is extremely rare outside of Earth and that makes it almost impossible to even have access to the needed materials, much less have them all prepared in time for the Highbreed’s surprise invasion. Even if someone did somehow pull it off they’re taking their entire planet with them just to wipe out a couple ships at most, which isn’t exactly what I would call “standing a chance” against the Highbreed.

3. Emperor Milleous, “Destroyer of Galaxies”

• Part of Emperor Milleous’ humorously long title is being called a “destroyer of galaxies”, which is used to justify 4-B to 4-A as it would be somewhat difficult to destroy an entire galaxy over time without good AP. However the two issues with this are the speed and size of the Incursean fleet. Ben 10 characters and vehicles are hilariously fast, and the Incursean army is massive. It would actually be very easy to lay waste to an entire galaxy in a relatively short time with the resources they have with only stellar level weaponry or less. This isn’t even getting into whether Milleous’ full title should actually be taken as reliable, as it’s humorously long and glaze-heavy to the point that characters never get an opportunity to finish it.
• As an aside there’s also the matter of said title putting heavy emphasis on the Conquest Ray specifically, heavily suggesting it’s Milleous’ most powerful weapon and should stand at the peak of his “galaxy wiping” arsenal. If this thread ends with it still holding stellar to star system levels of strength, then Way Big blatantly scaling above it has massive implications for the scaling of the verse which’ll need to be covered in a different thread. Of course if Milleous’ title is considered invalid evidence then this changes nothing.

4. Ma Vreedle’s sun destroying rocket

• Ma Vreedle has access to a weapon capable of destroying the sun, which was treated as serious business by the Plumbers who are aware of her criminal history. This is the one weapon that I think actually gives us something to work with. While it’s technically possible that Ma Vreedle didn’t have access to this during the War of the Worlds, her track record combined with the sheer genius of both the Highbreed and Galvan should mean she did have it and/or the two races have superior tech regardless (remember there’s only a one year gap). In fact, this level of power being easily replicated by the Highbreed and Galvan is the biggest advantage this rocket has that the first two don’t. At worst it should be a likely rating.

The Scaling

The previously 4-B, possibly 4-A characters will now become High 5-A, likely 4-C. Specifically they’ll scale to the Highbreed Warship destroying Galvan Prime (1.46 Quettatons) and Ma Vreedle’s rocket (baseline 4-C, in other words 136.066 Quettatons).

Here’s how the updated descriptions will look:

Spoiler: Ascalon

Attack Potency: At least Dwarf Star level (Misuse of its power can destroy entire planets. Was used by Sir George to fight against the likes of Dagon and Ultimate Humungousaur, and Ben later used it to defeat Vilgax holding the full power of Dagon. As a powerful piece of Galvan technology and one of Azmuth’s greatest inventions, it should be superior to the Galvan weaponry stated by Azmuth himself to be comparable to Highbreed weaponry), likely at least Star level (Due to being both the “only” race capable of fighting off the Highbreed and the smartest beings in many galaxies, the Galvan’s top weaponry should be superior to the sun-destroying rocket owned by Ma Vreedle)

Spoiler: Highbreed

For some reason they were never updated.

Attack Potency: Large Planet level (Capable of fighting Humungousaur. Some Highbreed are considered stronger than Vilgax), up to Dwarf Star level (Destroyed Galvan Prime), likely Star level with technology (It was stated by Azmuth that “only” the Galvan had the means to fight against the Highbreed, meaning their top weaponry should be comparable or superior to Ma Vreedle’s sun-destroying rocket)

It might also be worth it to create a civilisation page and/or warship page to better document their strength, but I don’t feel like doing that myself rn.

Spoiler: Ben Tennyson

Tier: 10-B, up to 2-A with Omnitrix Self-Destruct Mode | 5-A, 1-B with Celestialsapien arm, up to 2-A with Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode | At least High 5-A, likely at least 4-C, up to 2-A with Dagon’s Soul Absorption and Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode

Key: Original Series & Omniverse Flashbacks | Alien Force, Ultimate Alien and Omniverse | The Ultimate Knight/Wielding Ascalon (pls let me be fancy)

Attack Potency: Human level, up to Multiverse level+ with Omnitrix Self-Destruct Mode | Large Planet level (Could restrain and harm Simian, who, as an Arachnachimp, should be comparable to Spidermonkey and that could harm him. Should be comparable to Gwen. Was able to keep up with Attea and Pierce), Hyperverse level with Celestialsapien arm (Should be comparable to the Celestialsapien sword that can cut through the Contumelia's extra-dimensional barrier, which is meant to protect them from the Annihilarrgh), up to Multiverse level+ with Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode | At least Dwarf Star level, likely at least Star level (Wields Ascalon, which he used to defeat Vilgax and take Dagon’s power from him), up to Multiverse level+ with Dagon’s Soul Absorption and Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode

Speed: Average Human, up to Infinite attack speed via Omnitrix Self-Destruction | Massively FTL+ combat and reaction speed (Can keep up with Simian), higher with the Time Cycles (Much faster than and blitzed a Time Beast, which Rook stated moved faster than light), Immeasurable when fueled by Time Beast Eggs (Can travel into the timestream, which is a point in space-time where all past, present and future timelines meet and intersect), up to Infinite attack speed via Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruction | Massively FTL+ combat and reaction speed (Reacted to and deflected attacks from Dagonax), up to Infinite attack speed via Ultimatrix Self-Destruction

Lifting Strength: Average Human | At least Class 5 (Can grapple with Simian) | At least Class Z (Possesses Dagon’s power)

Striking Strength: Human level | Large Planet level, Hyperverse level with Celestialsapien arm | At least Dwarf Star level, likely at least Star level, up to Multiverse level+ with Dagon’s Soul Absorption

Durability: Human level | Large Planet level (Can take hits from the Esoterica. Took a casual kick from Ultimate Aggregor. Survived an attack from a machine that could harm Big Chill. Should be comparable to Gwen), Hyperverse level with Celestialsapien arm (It could protect Skurd from the Annihilarrgh) | At least Dwarf Star level, likely at least Star level (Is clad in armor formed by Ascalon, which could withstand Dagonax’s attacks), up to Multiverse level+ with Dagon’s Soul Absorption

Stamina: Unknown (Depends on what type of Alien he currently is, or in his original form)

Range: Standard Melee Range physically; Several Meters with DNA scanning, Intergalactic with DNA recombination, Multiversal+ with Omnitrix/Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode | Standard Melee Range physically, Planetary with Ascalon‘s powers, Interdimensional with Dagon‘s powers, Multiversal+ with Ultimatrix Self-Destruct Mode

Kinda off-topic, but the current state of Ben’s profile really nettled me so I decided to do a semi-rework. All changes are very self-evident, such as:

• An Ascalon-dedicated key as it looked awful all huddled up with the other stuff.
• Adding the Omnitrix SD to kid Ben (AKA literally the Ben that threatened the 2-A stuff lol).
• Giving Ascalon Ben an actual Class Z justification.
• Moving the SD stuff to the end of each key as it flowed better.

Spoiler: Sir George

Attack Potency: Street level (Defeated one of the Forever Knights) | At least Dwarf Star level, possibly at least Star level (Wields Ascalon, which he used to battle against Dagon in both the past and present)

All other characters just get their ratings from powerscaling.

The slightly off-topic Dagon tiering that really really bothers me

Y’know how Dagon, Dagonax and Ascalon Ben have 2-A with Power Absorption? Yeah this ain’t PA, no abilities are being taken. This is Soul Absorption, so it should be changed to that. You might’ve noticed before that the Ben rework already did this.

The End

Wow, what a doozy. To summarise:

1. 4-B and 4-A are out.
2. 4-C is at least a likely rating, maybe a full rating as I can see the merits either side.
3. Some profiles have changed justifications to fit the new tiering.
4. The Highbreed have their weaponry in their profile now.
5. Ben’s profile was reworked to flow better and add some self-evident stuff.
6. Dagon, Dagonax and Ascalon Ben have their ability mishap corrected.

• Agree: @GeneralSol16, @Accelerated_Evolution
• Disagree:
• Neutral:

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I mentioned this in the general thread, but somehow I wrote this all in a single night which is very uncharacteristic of me. If there’s any mistakes or oversights, that’s probs why lol

 

[GeneralSol16]

Clearly, I aggre.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

The thread looks fine