Ben 10 - Low 1-C Time Stream Proposal

[Reiner04]

It goes like:

• Not every verse has R>F relations.
• Not every verse has dimensions.

But, both types of verses or verse lacking both, can still qualify for Qualitative superiority and higher tier. The FAQ has been made as a common bridge for all verses.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to all staff and knowledgeable members who have helped out here.

I think that Everything12 seems to make sense here btw.

 

[Reiner04]

I think that Everything12 seems to make sense here btw.

Everything 12 is basically waiting for Ultima and if he didn't came the thread will proceed with what stated in FAQ and what ultima stated previously as I've been saying the same thing but everything 12 thinks they are not true.

 

[Everything12]

As stated, I'm more asking Ultima to talk about uncountable infinity and the real numbers and what we know of them, but not particularly for this CRT and whether I think this upgrade is correct.

More because based on my knowledge what you've been saying about the real numbers, that we don't have any clue about the size of them, is wrong.

 

[Reiner04]

but not particularly for this CRT and whether I think this upgrade is correct.

Why not directly about the crt?

 

[Reiner04]

Talking about uncountable infinite or countable infinite, the things i already have proper knowledge of, what good will it do to the crt?

 

[Everything12]

Why not directly about the crt?

Honestly I've already spoken to Ultima about this topic on Discord, and you are indeed wrong about uncountable infinite and the real numbers.

 

[Reiner04]

Honestly I've already spoken to Ultima about this topic on Discord, and you are indeed wrong about uncountable infinite and the real numbers.

Can you share the screenshots?

 

[Sniper670]

Honestly I've already spoken to Ultima about this topic on Discord, and you are indeed wrong about uncountable infinite and the real numbers.

Really?

Then depending on what Ultima says, this should also downgrade all verses where a structure is bigger than a 2A one without any elaboration on qualitative superiority. No biased stuff.

 

[Reiner04]

And spoken to ultima on discord...
It's biggest bruh moment for someone who has also done same.

 

[Everything12]

I'd rather just contact them and wait for them to clarify. I don't believe stuff said Discord should be used in wiki threads, I'm just clarifying why my stance while we wait.

Really?

Then depending on what Ultima says, this should also downgrade all verses where a structure is bigger than a 2A one without any elaboration on qualitative superiority. No biased stuff.

I think you are misunderstanding what we are discussing and the topic we want Ultima here tor.

We aren't really talking about a wiki system, but more the general idea of uncountable infinite, and how it is defined. And I do believe the definition I have is already what we use on the wiki.

 

[Reiner04]

I'd rather just contact them and wait for them to clarify. I don't believe stuff said Discord should be used in wiki threads, I'm just clarifying why my stance while we wait.

Good, I am also not sending anymore ss from discord as it's just wrong. Or this crt would have been passed long ago

 

[Reiner04]

Okay anyway, if ultima didn't came by the last time he will be active, we will go with what stated in FAQ, as it has already gone too long

 

[Everything12]

Or we don't rush and wait for confirmation on what is actually accurate.

 

[Reiner04]

Or we don't rush and wait for confirmation on what is actually accurate.

Sure, I am waiting.

 

[Sniper670]

How long do we wait for him?

Because if it takes too long this thread would've been dead by dead

 

[Reiner04]

How long do we wait for him?

He'll prolly be active for once soon (because of Little garden thread). But if by that time he'll not reply then we have everything in the FAQ mentioned to proceed.

 

[Sniper670]

Alright, no P.

I'm more concerned about my grammar lol

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Can someone summarise what has happened since I was gone?

 

[Reiner04]

Can someone summarise what has happened since I was gone?

Okay then to summarise the argument for space beyond in short and one single post whether ultima come or not is here:-

The idea behind the thread (and has been used previously for many verses), Natural numbers contains even numbers and odd numbers but yet aren't bigger than them but equal as we aren't jumping any higher but just adding more elements in the same size of space and it's even mentioned in The FAQ:


But as there is no way to reach any higher or bigger than the countable infinite by the methods I mentioned above like multiplying, divide or what not. We use the idea in Set theory of Power set of set is greater than the set. That said infinities uses the same method to jump higher over countable infinite and reach another infinite uncountable infinite (aleph1). So very first thing that is bigger than countable infinity is uncountable infinite which is low 1C when is over a 2A structure. The point that space beyond sees those structures just as tiny stars basically fits the discription.

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

There is really no such thing as finitely or countable infinite bigger than 2A and so difference is uncountable which is Low 1C as per standards, said by Ultima:



Also proceeding further,

Kevin: Where are we? There is nothing on my instruments.

Professor paradox: There is nothing outside either, Do you see that thin glow?

Gwen: A star?

Professor paradox: Actually, it's the universe. We are in the space beyond.

This entire conversation supports that universes are insignificant comparison to space beyond that professor paradox just straight out said there is nothing outside but when goes a bit in conversation, said that there is but just too small to notice or mention normally, space beyond is largely empty and by far bigger than those universes and it is supported by the visuals as well.

Also for the God's sake read the FAQ once in a life time.
In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to.
In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size". -FAQ

Our FAQ clearly says that being bigger than countable infinite times in size is a proof of Qualitative superiority. Which clearly space beyond is, as 2A multiverse or countable infinite times multiverse is equal in size (said by the same FAQ and ultima above in another thread).

Bigger than 2A is low 1C. FAQ is screaming in my head for it. Given that 2A structure is just star. I am done. I don't know why even we need ultima for something as straightforward as this written all over FAQ but whatever.

@Sir_Ovens why spacebeyond is Low 1C has been explained in these 2 posts.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Sir_Ovens

The Time Stream is a cylindrical structure that contains the Space Beyond within its walls.

In turn, the Space Beyond contains Tier 2 structures.

 

[Reiner04]

.

Anyway, Do you still believe bigger than countable infinity is not uncountable infinity? Or your mind has changed.

 

[Everything12]

Why would I have? Especially as, though I don't use it as evidence in thread, I've spoken to Ultima about this topic already.

 

[Reiner04]

Why would I have? Especially as, though I don't use it as evidence in thread, I've spoken to Ultima about this topic already.

So ultima said bigger than countable infinity is not uncountable infinity? Got that.

 

[Everything12]

Without going into detail, they said that uncountable infinity is something we can define. But again, rather not bring up Discord things as potential arguments. Only as basis of my own personal thoughts and opinions.

 

[Reiner04]

Why would I have? Especially as, though I don't use it as evidence in thread, I've spoken to Ultima about this topic already.

So ultima said bigger than countable infinity is not uncountable infinity? Got that.

Did he?

 

[Robo432343]

Can you tell us what ultima said

 

[Quantu]

At this point, instead of all the "he said this/that", I think getting Ultimas input specifically with regards to the contents of this thread would be the the only way to resolve matters.

 

[Reiner04]

If you can simply confirm me that ultima said:
"Bigger than countable infinity is not uncountable infinity."
I'll close the thread right away

 

[Reiner04]

At this point, instead of all the "he said this/that", I think getting Ultimas input specifically with regards to the contents of this thread would be the the only way to resolve matters.

Yeah, his opinion on the OP is needed

 

[Reiner04]

Okay then to summarise the argument for space beyond in short and one single post whether ultima come or not is here:-

The idea behind the thread (and has been used previously for many verses), Natural numbers contains even numbers and odd numbers but yet aren't bigger than them but equal as we aren't jumping any higher but just adding more elements in the same size of space and it's even mentioned in The FAQ:


But as there is no way to reach any higher or bigger than the countable infinite by the methods I mentioned above like multiplying, divide or what not. We use the idea in Set theory of Power set of set is greater than the set. That said infinities uses the same method to jump higher over countable infinite and reach another infinite uncountable infinite (aleph1). So very first thing that is bigger than countable infinity is uncountable infinite which is low 1C when is over a 2A structure. The point that space beyond sees those structures just as tiny stars basically fits the discription.

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

There is really no such thing as finitely or countable infinite bigger than 2A and so difference is uncountable which is Low 1C as per standards, said by Ultima:



Also proceeding further,

Kevin: Where are we? There is nothing on my instruments.

Professor paradox: There is nothing outside either, Do you see that thin glow?

Gwen: A star?

Professor paradox: Actually, it's the universe. We are in the space beyond.

This entire conversation supports that universes are insignificant comparison to space beyond that professor paradox just straight out said there is nothing outside but when goes a bit in conversation, said that there is but just too small to notice or mention normally, space beyond is largely empty and by far bigger than those universes and it is supported by the visuals as well.

@Antvasima can you ask @Ultima_Reality over if this post is enough to get low 1C?

 

[Everything12]

Not using this as evidence, but as you all seem to not understand what I say when I say I don't want to use out of wiki stuff I'll give this while we wait for Ultima's actual posts:

Me:

So someone in a Low 1-C upgrade thread is trying to act like we have absolutely no idea how big the uncountably infinite real numbers are and that it's just a value that is bigger than countable infinite.

Ultima:

I mean, technically they're right? We know the set of real numbers has cardinality 2^aleph-0 (The power set of a countably infinite set). What we don't know is which aleph that is.
Could be aleph-2, or 3, or 81.
On the wiki we go with the assumption it equals aleph-1, though.

Me:

It's more they are ignoring that we know that the real numbers are uncountable infinite, that we know what the real numbers are, and that we at least have some idea of how big the real numbers are. They just say that it's a complete unknown.
Also saying that we don't know how big infinity ^ infinity is and how it compares to infinity. Which is sort of true, but we do have at least a vague enough idea that we understand that we can compare it to the real numbers and all their many many decimals.

Ultima:

Yeah, they are kinda just objectively wrong, then. Not much to do here.

Yeah it seems they're conflating the issue I mentioned

(Link to message that shows them talking about not knowing what aleph the real numbers are, though we default them to aleph-1 here)

With not knowing whether or not uncountable infinite is infinitely larger than countable infinity at all.
That is wrong.
Even putting aside this matter, we can still fairly easily define it.
The "canonical" (Most standard) example of a set with cardinality aleph-1 for instance is the set of all sets with cardinality aleph-0.
You can generalise that to all other alephs.

 

[Reiner04]

Not using this as evidence, but as you all seem to not understand what I say when I say I don't want to use out of wiki stuff I'll give this while we wait for Ultima's actual posts:

Me:


Ultima:


Me:


Ultima:


(Link to message that shows them talking about not knowing what aleph the real numbers are, though we default them to aleph-1 here)

But what about it?

 

[Reiner04]

I mean, telling me that natural numbers cannot transverse real numbers is basic? Talking about size like very very big this big this and that doesn't really needed.

I am asking here did ultima said bigger than countable infinite is not uncountable infinite?

That's the entire point of this crt.

 

[Greenshifter]

Reiner, you’re wrong about “muh we have no idea how big uncountable infinity is”. That is all Everything12 tried to say today. Ultima seems to be neutral on how the FAQ applies to Ben 10.

@Everything12 Do you agree that any mention of a size difference between a 2-A realm and something that contains it would yield Low 1-C and if not can you mathematically explain why?

 

[Reiner04]

Reiner, you’re wrong about “muh we have no idea how big uncountable infinity is”

Minor mistake moments , although my context was for smth else, regardless the entire point of crt.

I am asking here did ultima said bigger than countable infinite is not uncountable infinite?

@Everything12 Do you agree that any mention of a size difference between a 2-A realm and something that contains it would yield Low 1-C and if not can mathematically explain why?

Are these one's.

 

[Everything12]

Reiner, you’re wrong about “muh we have no idea how big uncountable infinity is”. That is all Everything12 tried to say today. Ultima seems to be neutral on how the FAQ applies to Ben 10.

@Everything12 Do you agree that any mention of a size difference between a 2-A realm and something that contains it would yield Low 1-C and if not can you mathematically explain why?

Based off other threads which used similar logic, of which Ultima was a part of several, in addition to my knowledge of aleph-1 and what qualifies for aleph-1; the set of all aleph-0 sets and the real numbers. The cosmological structure must be infinite in comparison to the 2-A structure to qualify.

 

[Reiner04]

And here we go again.

Also for the God's sake read the FAQ once in a life time.
In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to.
In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size". -FAQ

Our FAQ clearly says that being bigger than countable infinite times in size is a proof of Qualitative superiority. Which clearly space beyond is, as 2A multiverse or countable infinite times multiverse is equal in size (said by the same FAQ and ultima above in another thread).

Bigger than 2A is low 1C. FAQ is screaming in my head for it. Given that 2A structure is just star. I am done.

 

[Everything12]

Q: What is qualitative superiority?
Qualitative superiority, also sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extend that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to. That means a character qualitatively superior to the usual spacetime continuum would, for example, be Low Complex Multiverse level (Tier Low 1-C) at the level represented by the R^5. Someone qualitatively superior to that would have the same tier, but on the higher level of infinity represented by the R^6 and someone qualitatively superior to that level would be baseline Complex Multiverse level (Tier 1-C).
In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to.
In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.
Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size.

As the idea of "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size" implies, most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level. E.g. being twice, a hundred or even infinite times stronger than a Multiverse level+ character, who already has infinite multiversal strength, would still not be enough to reach qualitative superiority over a multiverse.

Long story short, your misreading the FAQ. It isn't saying that being more than countable infinity is qualitative superiority, it's saying that having a qualitative difference in more than countable infinite.

 

[Reiner04]

Long story short, your misreading the FAQ. It isn't saying that being more than countable infinity is qualitative superiority, it's saying that having a qualitative difference in more than countable infinite.

Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size.

Right here in your Quote. This is all the thread is about, being bigger than countable infinite structure, I am not misreading anything.