Ben 10 CRT:"Absolute Upgrade"

[omegabronic]

Hold on a second, I’ve just realised that all three multiplier ends for Ultimate Hugh (2x, 10x and 50x) don’t work in conjunction with Ultimate Kevin scaling for one reason or another. Gimme a moment and I’ll explain why.

Kevin got stronger from absorbing several more people's powers over the course of the arc, keep that in mind when answering

 

[BlastX]

TBF most of them didn't compare to Humungosaur and he only got 1/10th of their power...it isn't much.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

2x: This is pretty easy to disprove. Ultimate Aggregor is 7x base, Ultimate Kevin is well over 13x base Greg since he stomped Ultimate Greg and then absorbed his power. Ultimate Hugh scales to Ultimate Kevin, which means we now have a 2x boost giving a character the strength to fight a well over 13x times amp. Obviously this doesn’t work.

10x: This has a similar issue to 2x, although technically you can argue the Ultimate Kevin scaling still works if that was the only issue. Ultimate Kevin is noticeably above 13x, since he casually beat Ultimate Greg before absorbing his powers even with Ultimate Greg having high durability due to P’andor’s containment suit. While this arguably still works from how easily Kevin beat Hugh, it’s still a bit iffy given that’s based on a lowballed multiplier (also if we’re accepting Kevin easily beat Hugh then maybe we should be treating him like everyone else Kevin easily beat). However that’s not the only issue, as we’re also shown the Humungousaur army pinning down Ultimate Humungousaur with their Lifting Strength. If LS also gets multiplied by 10 then that’s another contradiction within the actual show.

(As an aside, even if 10x is still used Ultimate Kevin’s value with need to be re-calced, since Ultimate Hugh and the regular aliens aren’t a clean 1/10th or 1/100th.)

50x: Basically the Humungousaur army problem again, but on a much larger scale since obviously Ultimate Hugh has a bigger multiplier now. This also fully contradicts the 2x multiplier statement, and idk about y’all but I don’t think we should be ignoring a contradicted statement in favour of a different statement that’s also contradicted.

So yeah all in all I don’t think either of these statements should be used. Ultimate Kevin’s lowball and 50x both contradict 2x, the Humungousaur army’s LS and arguably Ultimate Kevin’s lowball contradicts 10x, and lastly the 2x statement and the Humungousaur army contradict 50x.

The only one that could technically work is 10x, but that’s only if you take the most generous interpretation out of the Ultimate Kevin fight and also say that Ultimate Hugh doesn’t get a 10x LS boost. And at that point I don’t think doing all of that just to justify using a secondary canon statement to scale regular characters thousands of times greater than their highest on-screen feat is the most reasonable idea.

 

[Reiner04]

This is pretty easy to disprove. Ultimate Aggregor is 7x base, Ultimate Kevin is well over 13x base Greg since he stomped Ultimate Greg and then absorbed his power.

Not allowed.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Not allowed.

???

 

[Reiner04]

???

You can't calc multipliers due to one character stomping another. It only works to say Y > X. 10× multiplier is stomp but stomp doesn't means it's 10× multiplier. I know it doesn't makes sense but that's how our rules works.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

You can't calc multipliers due to one character stomping another. It only works to say Y > X. 10× multiplier is stomp but stomp doesn't means it's 10× multiplier. I know it doesn't makes sense but that's how our rules works.

Oh I see the confusion. >13x comes from Ultimate Kevin’s initial power of >7x plus the 6 parts of Ultimate Greg that he absorbed. The “well over 13x” is referring to that being a lowball due to the stomp.

 

[Reiner04]

Oh I see the confusion. >13x comes from Ultimate Kevin’s initial power of >7x plus the 6 parts of Ultimate Greg that he absorbed. The “well over 13x” is referring to that being a lowball due to the stomp.

He absorbed only 1/10th as that's what he's capable of. He's not too much stronger than UA Aggregor regardless of powers absorbed as shown in the calc I did above.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

He absorbed only 1/10th as that's what he's capable of. He's not too much stronger than UA Aggregor regardless of powers absorbed as shown in the calc I did above.

He absorbed all of Aggregor’s power, since Greg converted the Andromeda 5 into energy and Kevin absorbed the entirety of it. This is supported by Dwayne McDuffie as well as the Andromeda 5 being brought back at the end of the arc.

 

[omegabronic]

2x: This is pretty easy to disprove. Ultimate Aggregor is 7x base, Ultimate Kevin is well over 13x base Greg since he stomped Ultimate Greg and then absorbed his power. Ultimate Hugh scales to Ultimate Kevin, which means we now have a 2x boost giving a character the strength to fight a well over 13x times amp. Obviously this doesn’t work.

This isn't used, so no point talking about it

10x: This has a similar issue to 2x, although technically you can argue the Ultimate Kevin scaling still works if that was the only issue. Ultimate Kevin is noticeably above 13x, since he casually beat Ultimate Greg before absorbing his powers even with Ultimate Greg having high durability due to P’andor’s containment suit. While this arguably still works from how easily Kevin beat Hugh, it’s still a bit iffy given that’s based on a lowballed multiplier (also if we’re accepting Kevin easily beat Hugh then maybe we should be treating him like everyone else Kevin easily beat). However that’s not the only issue, as we’re also shown the Humungousaur army pinning down Ultimate Humungousaur with their Lifting Strength. If LS also gets multiplied by 10 then that’s another contradiction within the actual show.

(As an aside, even if 10x is still used Ultimate Kevin’s value with need to be re-calced, since Ultimate Hugh and the regular aliens aren’t a clean 1/10th or 1/100th.)

We don't multiply LS, them pinning down Ultimate Hugh for a sec before he detransformed is not an anti feat for 10x, also

50x: Basically the Humungousaur army problem again, but on a much larger scale since obviously Ultimate Hugh has a bigger multiplier now. This also fully contradicts the 2x multiplier statement, and idk about y’all but I don’t think we should be ignoring a contradicted statement in favour of a different statement that’s also contradicted.

You didn't showed any contradictions, Ultimate Hugh also one shots with negative effort the individuals of the army, even in omniverse this continues with him one shooting regular aliens like it is nothing, what contradictions? You showed none

The only one that could technically work is 10x, but that’s only if you take the most generous interpretation out of the Ultimate Kevin fight and also say that Ultimate Hugh doesn’t get a 10x LS boost. And at that point I don’t think doing all of that just to justify using a secondary canon statement to scale regular characters thousands of times greater than their highest on-screen feat is the most reasonable idea.

We already don't give 10x to LS, so it doesn't matter at all

 

[Reiner04]

He absorbed all of Aggregor’s power, since Greg converted the Andromeda 5 into energy and Kevin absorbed the entirety of it. This is supported by Dwayne McDuffie as well as the Andromeda 5 being brought back at the end of the arc.

Weird since he do already absorbs matter and energy of whatever he touches. Not like he's machine capable of accomplishing what Entropy Pump could.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

This isn't used, so no point talking about it

I just wanted to cover my bases

We don't multiply LS, them pinning down Ultimate Hugh for a sec before he detransformed is not an anti feat for 10x, also

I was under the impression we did based on what others responded to me with when I asked earlier. If I’m wrong then cool I guess.

You didn't showed any contradictions, Ultimate Hugh also one shots with negative effort the individuals of the army, even in omniverse this continues with him one shooting regular aliens like it is nothing, what contradictions? You showed none

Never mentioned anything about his AP being contradicted, dunno where you got that from. The contradiction is with the 2x statement. While 2x base-size doesn’t work for obvious reasons, 2x full-size would be 10x which contradicts 50x.

In fact the only way both statements can co-exist is if you say that the 2x statement refers to full-size while the 10x statement refers to base-size, however that’s quite the big assumption to make with no evidence on that just so you can use a couple of secondary canon statements to buff the entire verse thousands of times greater than their highest on-screen feat. If you don’t assume they’re talking about the different levels then that brings up the validity of both statements, as they’re now contradictory to each other.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Let’s also not forget that Ultimate Kevin being 13x is just based on him being vaguely stronger than Ultimate Greg before absorbing his powers. When you look at the actual power boost he’d be getting it’d be a lot higher than that regardless of which method you’d use. Pretty sure it’d be around like 20x or something assuming Ultimate Hugh is 10x base, but it could be lower or higher idk.

 

[omegabronic]

I just wanted to cover my bases


I was under the impression we did based on what others responded to me with when I asked earlier. If I’m wrong then cool I guess.


Never mentioned anything about his AP being contradicted, dunno where you got that from. The contradiction is with the 2x statement. While 2x base-size doesn’t work for obvious reasons, 2x full-size would be 10x which contradicts 50x.

In fact the only way both statements can co-exist is if you say that the 2x statement refers to full-size while the 10x statement refers to base-size, however that’s quite the big assumption to make with no evidence on that just so you can use a couple of secondary canon statements to buff the entire verse thousands of times greater than their highest on-screen feat. If you don’t assume they’re talking about the different levels then that brings up the validity of both statements, as they’re now contradictory to each other.

We currently accept only the 10x one, not the 2x, so why are you arguing about something that is not accepted?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

We currently accept only the 10x one, not the 2x, so why are you arguing about something that is not accepted?

Actually we currently accept 50x. Also how does it even matter what we currently accept, we should still discuss all possible ways it could potentially work whenever a notable change is being suggested. Not to mention this is also the first time the 2x statement has been brought up.

 

[Reiner04]

Actually we currently accept 50x. Also how does it even matter what we currently accept, we should still discuss all possible ways it could potentially work whenever a notable change is being suggested. This is also the first time the 2x statement has been brought up.

UAhumung 50×? Yeah, then just what I said previously, he should be 10× base and 2× full grown.

 

[Reiner04]

Snip

Anyway,

Actually, after checking a bit number of Aliens whose powers he had. I updated the stuff:

Let's see;

UA humung = X = UA kevin

Waybig = 203.5591 ronnatons

1/10 of waybig = 20.35591 ronnatons

rest of casts, let's way, each of 29 + 7 of Agregor = X/10 AP

X/10 + (X/100)*36 + 20.35591 = X

X = 37.6961 ronnatons = UA kevin ≈ UA Humungousaur

Base Humungousaur = X/10 = 3.76961 ronnatons.

What do u disagree with in this calc? So I can get the idea since I'm not able to go around stuff being argued possibly coz I'm not getting the basic difference in our opinion of multiplier.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Anyway,

What do u disagree with in this calc? So I can get the idea since I'm not able to go around stuff being argued possibly coz I'm not getting the basic difference in our opinion of multiplier.

The two main things are Ultimate Greg’s power being only 1/10th instead of full as well as Ultimate Humungousaur fully-scaling to Ultimate Kevin, since Ultimate Kevin is at least 13x base Humungousaur. Idk how the actual math for this calc works though so I’ll leave that to you.

UAhumung 50×? Yeah, then just what I said previously, he should be 10× base and 2× full grown.

Yeah that’s what I believe y’all were going to do, although it still feels pretty convenient but whatever.

Idk, I already think the downscaling argument is super iffy since it’s entirely based on using secondary canon multipliers in order to scale regular characters hundreds of thousands of times greater than any feat they’ve shown in the story, not to mention said feat is only a single one (and one you know I have issues with from my downgrade thread) and the next highest after that is hundreds of millions of times a gap. When you add on how notoriously inconsistent this verse is and how the statements themselves only work if you interpret them in a certain unnatural way, it just feels way too much.

 

[BlastX]

Yeah i'm pretty sure Aggregor absorbing the full power of the andromeda 5 is an explicit plot point, there's no rreason why he would b only 1/10th of it.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Yeah i'm pretty sure Aggregor absorbing the full power of the andromeda 5 is an explicit plot point, there's no rreason why he would b only 1/10th of it.

I think Reiner was just saying the power Kevin absorbed from Aggregor was 1/10th.

 

[Reiner04]

The two main things are Ultimate Greg’s power being only 1/10th instead of full as well as Ultimate Humungousaur fully-scaling to Ultimate Kevin, since Ultimate Kevin is at least 13x base Humungousaur. Idk how the actual math for this calc works though so I’ll leave that to you.

i meant if u could write in X Y terms. That looks beautiful ngl.

so as per u:
X = UA kevin = 13× base humung [as he absorbed full of Agregor]?
And as per me:
Y = UA kevin = 10× base?

Actually the gap of power, even as per ur interpretation, is so minuscular that it doesn't mean much, it’s just 1.3× difference barely, and our oneshot gap is around 7×, So ua humung can still go many rounds with him as he did, but would be just slightly weaker.

Tho, I personally, Still favours Y over X since I don't think UA kevin is capable of absorbing full power of anyone, but either of it can stay

 

[Reiner04]

Edited a random error, refresh

 

[BlastX]

I think Reiner was just saying the power Kevin absorbed from Aggregor was 1/10th.

That doesn't make any sense either because Aggregor lost everything when Kevin absorbed his powers and the Andromeda 5 revived once everyone's powers went back to their original owners.

So yeah, Kevin absorbed everything.

 

[Reiner04]

Well, osmosians do be absorbing ppls powers down to their life force till nothing left.

What I think is that they can't absorb all of it in themselves due to obvious reasons and most of energy just vapours off in space.

 

[BlastX]

But again, not only was it confirmed Greg and Kevin absorbed all of it through WOG, but the Andromeda 5 wouldn't have returned if Kevin didn't absorb all of it.

 

[Reiner04]

But again, not only was it confirmed Greg and Kevin absorbed all of it through WOG, but the Andromeda 5 wouldn't have returned if Kevin didn't absorb all of it.

Well they can return weaker, ultimos and rest don't had their full power ever since absorbed by vilgax, doesn'tmean they stopped existing. But as I've Said before, it won't change much since minuscular gap eitherway so I'll just leave it ya all, as I myself might be wrong.

Here's @Ghengiroo115 interpretation graph.

 

[BlastX]

All this does is make me think ben is ******* idiot for not using his stronger Ultimate Forms earlier and only using Way Big for beating up his cousin instead of beating Kevin with him.

 

[Reiner04]

Also I think UA aggregor might get 6 times from 7 times since @Greenshifter told me staff uses greg kE to fight/or that he likelydidn'tabsorbed it.

 

[Reiner04]

H = base Humungousaur
Waybig/10 = 20.3 ronnatonns
Z = Ultimate Kevin = X + Y = 12H (X is before he absorbed UA Greg powers which were atleast comparable to UA Greg since he defeated him, X = 6H)
Y = Ultimate Aggregor = 6H.
12H = 20.3 + (29/100)*H +1.3H + 6H
H = 4.6032 ronnatons

 

[BlastX]

Huh, that's twice as strong as Kevin 12.

 

[Reiner04]

Huh, that's twice as strong as Kevin 12.

You're tripping.

 

[BlastX]

Kevin 12 only scales to 1/10th of Way Big since he's only composed of the 10 additional aliens of the Omnitrix and every other alien he's composed off is far weaker than Way Big, like 1000x weaker.

 

[Reiner04]

Kevin 12 only scales to 1/10th of Way Big since he's only composed of the 10 additional aliens of the Omnitrix and every other alien he's composed off is far weaker than Way Big, like 1000x weaker.

Still more than 20 ronnatons blast. Humungousaur is just 4 ronnatonsor smth.

 

[BlastX]

I was referring to Ultimate Kevin.

 

[Reiner04]

I was referring to Ultimate Kevin.

Oh. Then yeah, even UA humg solos.

 

[Reiner04]

Okay, then I think you all agree with UA kevin absorbing gull power of UA aggregor? Because if fluctuated, I'll start WW3 now. That Said, here's end of power graph:

H = base Humungousaur
Waybig/10 = 20.3 ronnatonns
Z = Ultimate Kevin = X + Y = 12H (X is before he absorbed UA Greg powers which were atleast comparable to UA Greg since he defeated him, X = 6H)
Y = Ultimate Aggregor = 6H.
12H = 20.3 + (29/100)*H +1.3H + 6H
H = 4.6032 ronnatons

 

[Firestorm808]

Ult kevin acknowledges Ult Humungousaur as someone who can give him a good fight, contrary to Humungousaur.

Ben: Humungousaur
Kevin: Not enough Tennyson.
Ben: (UA transformation) How about now?
Kevin: (leaves all smerky attitudes and gets serious).

So by convo and fight, as we have established before statements, context takes precedence (we scale anoditesby statement despite them having blows with regulars), I think only UA Echo Echo and UA humung will be scaling directly, with rest just downscaling by 10 times.

Ult Humung = UA Kevin Absorb = 1/10 Waybig seems okay

How did you get the 7 and 1 for UA agg and Base humung again?

 

[Reiner04]

Ult Humung = UA Kevin Absorb = 1/10 Waybig seems okay

How did you get the 7 and 1 for UA agg and Base humung again?

Current UA Aggregor scales to 7 times base Humungousaur in profiles, due to absorbing full power of all Andromeda aliens. I think we should remove his staff tho since that wasn't absorbed most likely, making it 6 multiplier.

Ultimate Humungousaur currently scales to 10 times base Humungousaur due to multiplier provided in Ben 10 DVD, So Humungousaur will downscale from ua Humungousaur

UA kevin currently scales to 1/10 of every alien he has absorbed in profiles, adding 1/10 of waybig and 6 of UA greg makes him 12×base Humungousaur.

Basically this is updated scaling chain;

H = base Humungousaur
Waybig/10 = 20.3 ronnatonns
Z = Ultimate Kevin = X + Y = 12H (X is before he absorbed UA Greg powers which were atleast comparable to UA Greg since he defeated him, X = 6H)
Y = Ultimate Aggregor = 6H.
12H = 20.3 + (29/100)*H +1.3H + 6H
H = 4.6032 ronnatons

And this is latest graph:

Okay, then I think you all agree with UA kevin absorbing gull power of UA aggregor?. That Said, here's end of power graph:

 

[BlastX]

Bump

 

[Reiner04]

I still don't think UA kevin should have 100% powers of UA greg. It was never shown that Osmosians could absorb anything beyond 10%.