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Ben 10: Crosstime Possibly Low 1-C re-justification.

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IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
What do you think about this?
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From reading the justifications I don't think they count. Just traveling backwards in time before they're destroyed wouldn't be enough. They would need to travel to a seperate snapshot of the timeline.

The biggest indication is the time travel actually effecting the present. In my example the two multiverse branches are independent of each other, while the dialogue given in the OP makes it clear everything they're doing is dependent and will make branching effects down the line. Showing there's not a separation of the past and future.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The biggest indication is the time travel actually effecting the present. In my example the two multiverse branches are independent of each other, while the dialogue given in the OP makes it clear everything they're doing is dependent and will make branching effects down the line. Showing there's not a separation of the past and future.
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Actually, yeah. All of multiverse has been destroyed at CTB affected timestream, yet, at the same time, at another point in Crosstime, say in future' or past, everything was still fine (they even returns back to that point in Crosstime where nothing existed but no watch ben timeline, after travelling to different points in Crosstime, including the future timestream which was still fine). Despite vilgax has already won. So different versions of timestream itself is existing across Crosstime with none events affecting any other point.
 
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@Qawsedf234, I think you misunderstood what's happening. Ben 10000 and all of Ben realities has been destroyed and cease to exist at CTB affected timestream of Crosstime, Eon can travel freely to past, but he couldn't save himself because CTB was affecting all of timelines, obviously, and he died as a result, with all other Ben's there. But Ben 10000 reality and all other ben realities, including Eon one, still existed at different points in Crosstime unaffected by the events of CTB at middle. So they're indeed independent of events happening in the middle and still exist when they shouldn't.
 
Reiner said:
@Qawsedf234, I think you misunderstood what's happening. Ben 10000 and all of Ben realities has been destroyed and cease to exist at CTB affected timestream of Crosstime, Eon can travel freely to past, but he couldn't save himself because CTB was affecting all of timelines, obviously, and he died as a result, with all other Ben's there. But Ben 10000 reality and all other ben realities, including Eon one, still existed at different points in Crosstime unaffected by the events of CTB at middle. So they're indeed independent of events happening in the middle and still exist when they shouldn't.
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Those timelines can be destroyed but still exist in the same time axis.

Basically if what Paradox did to save the multiverse involved time travel, it's hard to argue that you have multiple temporal axis. As travel to a different temporal axis wouldn't cause changes to another.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Those timelines can be destroyed but still exist in the same time axis.

Basically if what Paradox did to save the multiverse involved time travel, it's hard to argue that you have multiple temporal axis. As travel to a different temporal axis wouldn't cause changes to another.
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No, paradox didn't saved anyone with timetravel, he just triggered the branching and set the intertwined fate. I believe, triggering smth to began is not a disproval of being independent, so long what has came forth ever since triggering is independent of the any further past change, which it is. Paradox, ben going to past was given and happened, for ben to get Omnitrix, as this is how he got Omnitrix, but, all events still exists regardless if it had happened or not, it was more of to explain lore. ben 23, ben 10000, CTB affected one and all of Crosstime was still fine. What saved everyone was Chronosapien as paradox and all other Ben's has already lost the battle. All the events of Crosstime travelling with ben was basically smth that has happened already and was destined to happened, there was no point to it, but it's just happened regardless. To short it off, all that paradox did aside from saving no watch ben from vilgax (doesn't involve timetravel) was doomed to nothing by vilgax already. So his Crosstime travel was good for nothing in saving the multiverse.
All worlds are every bit as real as our own, but they mustn't allowed into leak into ours.
 
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What Reiner is trying to say: Basically Paradox traveled to another iteration of the timestream, started the branching of it, recruited Bens of that timestream and sent them into battle against the evil Bens in the original timestream, everyone died and the original timestream was destroyed except for one timeline, No Watch Ben restores the original timestream as Clockwork and everyone is sent back to where they came from, thus closing the loop.

This logically follows from a time traveler (Eon) being unable to dodge the Chronosapien Time Bomb and the timeline that Paradox visited having an Omnitrix, whereas No Watch Ben didn't have his fate interwined with one. It's basically the only interpretation which doesn't cause an inconsistency.
 
Benimōru said:
Even Vilgax says that bomb will only destroy the "Ben Prime" timeline and the timelines branching from it. And Paradox says that where he and Ben traveled is the beginning of the Prime timeline, and we already know that Prime timeline began because Ben reached the Omnitrix. So the fact that they traveled before Ben reached the Omnitrix means that they traveled not to the Prime timeline that was already destroyed, but to a timeline that was before it and was not affected by that explosion.
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The beginning seems to be right before Ben gets the Omnitrix + how can No Watch Ben's timeline branch from Ben getting the Omnitrix when his timeline probably doesn't even have an Omnitrix? Same question for Gwen 10.
 
Yeah and they died again and again and again and paradox kept doing it doing it and doing, it's basically is somewhat story rather than any alteration to it, Eon, capable of travelling anywhere to the timeline freely, was unable to save himself, which makes it obvious that this is not regular past, future, well, existence of Crosstime already somewhat defines it. Then after a bit, chronosapien, clockworks restores the multiverse back to normal, eliminating the anamoly btw past and future of Crosstime.

Anyway, let's wait for Qawsed.
 
Greenshifter said:
What Reiner is trying to say: Basically Paradox traveled to another iteration of the timestream, started the branching of it, recruited Bens of that timestream and sent them into battle against the evil Bens in the original timestream, everyone died and the original timestream was destroyed except for one timeline, No Watch Ben restores the original timestream as Clockwork and everyone is sent back to where they came from, thus closing the loop.
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If Paradox traveled backwards and started a new branch, then I think the FAQ covers it already
However, caution is necessary. As explained above, we require that the additional time dimension is "a line comprised of uncountably infinite points". If new versions of timelines are only created if they are changed, due to time travel for example, then the number of "snapshots" of the timeline would be far more limited. The amount of snapshots would be one more than the times the timeline was changed. So, for example, if the timeline is rewritten 2 times, there would be 3 snapshots of the timeline: the original, the timeline after the first rewrite and the timeline after the second rewrite. That are far less than the required uncountably infinite many.
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Aside from direct statements, the easiest way to confirm that the line is comprised of uncountably infinite points/"snapshots" is to show that the development of the timelines is time-like. I.e. typically one would want a statement like the alteration of the timelines being subject to its own flow of time or by saying that special time travel can go to prior versions of the timelines instead of the past. The keyword in the latter case is time travel, as that specifies that the action happens through movement through something like time. Note that such statements can be considered contradicted if the fiction specifies that new versions of the timeline, i.e. additional snapshots, are only created when the timeline is altered or similar.
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So I'm still iffy on it counting as Low 1-C, since it seems heavily determinate on Paradox influcing those events.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
since it seems heavily determinate on Paradox influcing those events.
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The problem is, he didn't changed anything, he just did what he's destined to and has done over and over again. Regardless the number of times all of timelimes are destroyed and regardless he goes back to version of timelines that is still safe, it doesn't change anything and neither is to change anything, all of this will be doomed in future of Crosstime and has been doomed anyway, Crosstime is just that, have different versions of timestream itself. It's just a lore and has happened unless smth or someone else do a timetravel to change it. It's a part of the story. What saves and brings any change to the timestream is clock work. Infact even CTB destroying timestream and all of Ben's didn't affected the future. So future is independent of past alteration. This seems to be just misunderstanding.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If Paradox traveled backwards and started a new branch, then I think the FAQ covers it already
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He traveled to an already existing timeline which didn't exist anymore in the original timestream though. He didn't create this specific timeline, he did cause the other branches of said timeline to exist but that's just irrelevant to the amount of temporal dimensions which are being crossed.
 
Greenshifter said:
He traveled to an already existing timeline which didn't exist anymore in the original timestream though
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From what you told me he went back to the Prime Ben branch, and then from there splintered out to get other Bens. Which is why I posted the other stuff.

If you're saying he traveled to an adjacent timeline that was only the Prime Ben universe and then it splintered I can sorts see it, but what I've been told it sounds like the FAQ examples of stuff that wouldn't count.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If you're saying he traveled to an adjacent timeline that was only the Prime Ben universe and then it splintered I can sorts see it, but what I've been told it sounds like the FAQ examples of stuff that wouldn't count.
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Something like that I guess, to put it simple we never see the prime timeline where most of Ben 10 takes place in during the episode. It’s the prime timeline from a different multiverse (or well universe before Paradox intervened)
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If you're saying he traveled to an adjacent timeline that was only the Prime Ben universe and then it splintered
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Yeah, the lore is that they set up prime timeline story when there was no branchings of version of prime timeline, it's not mere past or beginning but the version that doesn't even have branchings to begin with. It's happening is not really much connected to CTB but rather lore itself. The other versions like Ben 23 and Gwen 10 and even all across future or CTB affected version, are all independent. Given that they don't even need prime timeline paradox's catalyst and even if considering he has influence in prime version of all of timestream, the future versions are still subject to it's own flow independent of what happening in past (CTB events not affecting Ben 10000 timestream version across Crosstime).
 
They are not going to the Prime timeline of another "multiverse". They go to the "beginning" of the Prime timeline, the moment it started, and try to fix everything. That's all it is.

You are still twisting the episodes and trying to upgrade the verse
 
Benimōru said:
They are not going to the Prime timeline of another "multiverse". They go to the "beginning" of the Prime timeline, the moment it started, and try to fix everything. That's all it is.
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Sigh. I'm saying they went to prime timeline from no watch ben one. And they didn't fixed anything, you fix smth not just for it to repeat itself that has happened and happened and will happen. Clockwork saved the day is given. We are talking about how past and future is not influenced by alteration of middle events or destruction of whole of timestream itself not affecting future or past versions of timestream that is subject to it's own flow.
 
All they do is reboot the Ben Prime timeline so that the other timelines can branch out again. Like, literally, they wouldn't need to restart the Ben Prime timeline if there was already another multiverse.

Even Paradox says that this will allow them to gather the "good" Ben and prepare for the big battle. Especially in the Ben Prime timeline, they make Ben get the Omnitrix and then they go to the other timelines to collect the others. Because that's how the timelines that were destroyed are branching out again. So, everything that happens within a single time dimension. There is no second
 
Benimōru said:
All they do is reboot the Ben Prime timeline so that the other timelines can branch out again. Like, litteraly, they wouldn't need to restart the Ben Prime timeline if there was already another multiverse.

Even Paradox says that this will allow them to gather the "good" Ben and prepare for the big battle. Especially in the Ben Prime timeline, they make Ben get the Omnitrix and then they go to the other timelines to collect the others. Because that's how the timelines that were destroyed are branching out again. Everything that happens within a single time dimension
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They just reboots the beginning of Crosstime to how it should and do it over and over and over and over again, as it's just a lore. They then went to different versions of timestream that has nothing to do with primetimeline alteration, ex, Gwen 10, Ben 23, remember why? They don't fit in primetime and that has nothing to do with prime ben getting the Omnitrix but it doesn't matter. Since what matters is nothing changing about Crosstime, future of Crosstime and past and CTB affected version of Timestream ain't getting changed unless someone do it with smth supernatural multiversal powers (clockwork).
 
Benimōru said:
Like, literally, they wouldn't need to restart the Ben Prime timeline if there was already another multiverse.

Even Paradox says that this will allow them to gather the "good" Ben and prepare for the big battle.
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Him needing an army of Bens when the original multiverse is destroyed is seemingly the reason why he does the whole “reboot” thing.
 
Greenshifter said:
Then why is everyone still dead when No Watch Ben faces Vilgax?
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?

Because Paradox sent them all away without No Watch Ben?

Paradox: Meeting your counterpart Bens was one thing. Arriving along with them would have hopelessly garbled your timeline.
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And when Ben goes there, it's the same scene as at the end of episode 1, before Paradox and Ben go to the beginning of the Prime timeline.
 
Anyway, Paradox didn't do anything since Vilgax won already, CTB took off, Clockwork saved everyone and restores all of timelines and all of CTB version of timestream. Is that clear? I might be parroting episodes again and again atm. Sigh.
 
In any case, from here on, Agree to disagree. It's just seems like loop, I'll go again and quote my beginning and again and again. There will be no change to it but just at best misunderstanding of what I'm saying or, at the end of the day, disagreement by own interpretations (not a criticism but I'm no longer interested in repeating myself, i respect the discussion and leaving it at that). It's better to just watch Ben 10 Omniverse season 6 ep 1-2 ig. Then any formed answer will be fine. Although, Hypertimeline is only way to explain Crosstime is what I know. Any other thing is just full of inconsistencies or just had smth that goes off the plot. Crosstime having different versions of timestream itself across Crosstime and future and past being unaffected by middle events changes makes most sense as it has happened. Feel free to think or explain how future version timestream and past version timestream that has been destroyed by CTB at the middle of Crosstime still exists. Well, how all of Crosstime exists as well. Only explaination I've is that they're different versions itself of whole of timestream. By only, i mean I can't push any other explanations even if tried (I've and that's why this crt exist since I'm sure).
 
A brief summary of what happened in the episodes;

It's all about Vilgax destroying all of Ben Prime and the timelines branching off of it with the CTB, which causes Paradox and NW Ben to restart the Ben Prime timeline and have a big battle with the Ben's in the branching timelines to repeat the big battle from episode one and stop Vilgax. And again, like in episode one, all the Ben's die and NW Ben shows up right after the scene in episode one where Paradox pulls himself out of the portal before Paradox and Ben Prime go to the beginning of the timeline and brings them all back through Clockwork's time manipulation. And the bad Ben's are sent back to their timelines before before Vilgax was arrested.

So there is not another multiverse, another timestream, a second time dimension. It's all about them going back to the beginning of the main timeline (Ben Prime), which has been destroyed in a single time dimension, and starting all over again to fix everything in the final battle.

So i disagree
 
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Valeska24 said:
So there is not another multiverse, another timestream, a second time dimension. It's all about them going back to the beginning of the main timeline (Ben Prime), which has been destroyed in a single time dimension, and starting all over again to fix everything in the final battle.
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The argument is that the Ben prime timeline is already a multi+ structure, and each timeline branch has its own multi+ structure therefore Dragonball
 
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