Ben 10 Cosmology: High 1-B upgrade

[DonkeySlayer06]

Bro still cooking . I agree

 

[Qawsedf234]

The only thing that implies infinite-D is the phrase incalculable, but immediately afterwards they explain way: Their realm isn't subjected to space or time.

It's incalculable because you can't calculate it with math based on their dialog, not that their realm is infinite or transinfinite.

So I disagree with an upgrade. The most this means to me is that they're vaguely abstract in nature.

Additional this isn't an attempt at a High 1-B upgrade afaik. If you can't mathematically define it but it's still built upon a lower realm, you're arguing for High 1-B+ or Low 1-A upgrade with the new tiering system.

 

[Hellformer]

Their realm isn't subjected to space or time.

"A glorious Universe unfathomable to primitive mind such as yours"
It's a Universe with incalculable dimensions so idk where did you get with "a realm isn't subjected to space-time"

It's incalculable because you can't calculate it with math based on their dialog, not that their realm is infinite or transinfinite.

It's incalculable for 3-D beings because that statement was made in context to Ben who is 3 dimensional

So I disagree with an upgrade. The most this means to me is that they're vaguely abstract in nature.

Sorry but I think you misunderstood what's really being argued over here

Additional this isn't an attempt at a High 1-B upgrade afaik. If you can't mathematically define it but it's still built upon a lower realm, you're arguing for High 1-B+ or Low 1-A upgrade with the new tiering system.

That's too much of a stretched misinterpretation

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

The only thing that implies infinite-D is the phrase incalculable, but immediately afterwards they explain way: Their realm isn't subjected to space or time.

Transdimensional refers to the travel between dimensions of space time. Their universe being unperceivable by lower beings is also consistent with the Nalgians and their claims about the 26D.

It's incalculable because you can't calculate it with math based on their dialog, not that their realm is infinite or transinfinite.

Infinity is calculable in B10 as shown with the CTB.

So I disagree with an upgrade. The most this means to me is that they're vaguely abstract in nature.

There's less evidence to support them being abstract than higherD.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Their realm isn't subjected to space or time.

That isn't what the statement is saying, the statement is "Defies the limits of space and time"

It doesn't necessarily mean that their realm lacks it, it just means that the limits of space and time are surpassed, or that there space-time is "Limitless".

 

[Hellformer]

Infinity is calculable in B10 as shown with the CTB.

More like calculable by 3-D beings and their technology

 

[Greenshifter]

The only thing that implies infinite-D is the phrase incalculable, but immediately afterwards they explain way: Their realm isn't subjected to space or time.

It's incalculable because you can't calculate it with math based on their dialog, not that their realm is infinite or transinfinite.

So I disagree with an upgrade. The most this means to me is that they're vaguely abstract in nature.

Additional this isn't an attempt at a High 1-B upgrade afaik. If you can't mathematically define it but it's still built upon a lower realm, you're arguing for High 1-B+ or Low 1-A upgrade with the new tiering system.

The space beyond is accepted as being a higher-order space-time and having a higher-order causality system. There are multiple layers of space and time in Ben 10 which are still quantifiable, so this has no relevance here.

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

I can agree with the cosmology being upgraded to countless 1-B but High 1-B is a stretch. By that same logic, the term "countless", "immeasurable", etc. in any setting with characters that can comprehend an infinite amount of something would automatically be infinite. Which isn't really the case, it's normal to comprehend infinity as a concept while struggling to calculate or visualize technically finite numbers, like TREE(3) for example.

I think that Countless 1-B

For me it's countless 1b.

I believe the reasoning for it being infinite has already been mentioned due to infinity being a calculable number by 3D beings or their tech atleast.

The thing is that Maltruant was going to make a universe in his image, which includes defining how things in this infinite universe will worship him, so it’s more than just comprehending infinity as a concept.

Except "incalculable" carries the additional weight of referring to values which escape any estimate, so saying it could be a conceptualised finite number which is just unable to be derived doesn't really fit with the precise wording. Not to mention the broader context of this being higher ordered entities which view supergeniuses like Azmuth (as he is a 3-D being) as beneath them countless times over, so saying these beings are confined to finite values is definitely odd.

Overall this argument puts too much weight in the possibility of hyperbolic language; even the word "infinite" can be used hyperbolically, we judge whether or not it is the case depending on context not on a basis of "well it COULD be hyperbolic" - and in this context there's simply no indication that it is hyperbolic whilst incredibly suggested it's supposed to be read as something beyond what we've seen thus far in the series.

The reasoning should at least be enough for it to be '1B, likely High 1B'.

In a vaccum incalculable is just stupidly high into a finite number, but given the fact that characters are already able to calculate infinity, and things even beyond, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possiblity. Though I say that it should get 1-B possibly High 1-B, because it is kinda iffy

 

[Rosa]

The only thing that implies infinite-D is the phrase incalculable, but immediately afterwards they explain way: Their realm isn't subjected to space or time.

It's incalculable because you can't calculate it with math based on their dialog, not that their realm is infinite or transinfinite.

So I disagree with an upgrade. The most this means to me is that they're vaguely abstract in nature.

Additional this isn't an attempt at a High 1-B upgrade afaik. If you can't mathematically define it but it's still built upon a lower realm, you're arguing for High 1-B+ or Low 1-A upgrade with the new tiering system.

i actually agree with this one more

 

[Hellformer]

I'd wait for Firestorm's opinion regarding this thread because he's more knowledgeable than any other staff regarding Ben 10 Cosmology.

 

[Qawsedf234]

doesn't necessarily mean that their realm lacks it, it just means that the limits of space and time are surpassed, or that there space-time is "Limitless".

Which is why it's incalculable. It lacks the defining ways to calculate it because it's not subject to them. If they're infinite-D they can still be calculated.

 

[Hellformer]

Which is why it's incalculable. It lacks the defining ways to calculate it because it's not subject to them. If they're infinite-D they can still be calculated.

It wasn't contextualized as incalculable as a whole. Instead in this scenario, it was said in context to 3-dimensional beings i.e. something that 3-D beings and tech can't calculate. But as mentioned in the thread that infinity is calculable via 3-D beings, hence this must be Aleph-0 at bare minimum.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It wasn't contextualized as incalculable as a whole.

I don't see how you can read it in any other way. They state themselves as incalculable and in the same sentence explains that it'd because they're from a realm that defies the limits of space and time.

So you're arguing that they lack those aspects, in which it's not a feat and they're abstract or you're arguing that they're Low 1-A per the FAQ:

A: If it refers to an actual superiority over dimensions, then there are two options available for such statements: They can either be Low 1-A, inasmuch as generic superiority over dimensions can be expressed by a structure like a proper class, a generalization of the concept of mathematical sets to collections that are deemed "too big" to be such. For example: The proper class containing all vector spaces exceeds all vector space dimensions, and this can be generalized to even wider collections.

What you gave just is not a High 1-B justification. It's nothing or Low 1-A.

 

[Hellformer]

I don't see how you can read it in any other way. They state themselves as incalculable and in the same sentence explains that it'd because they're from a realm that defies the limits of space and time.

They state themselves to belong from an incalculable dimension, something which lower life forms/lower dimensional beings cannot comprehend. They're from a Universe inside Space beyond btw

So you're arguing that they lack those aspects, in which it's not a feat and they're abstract or you're arguing that they're Low 1-A per the FAQ:

No, I'm arguing that they belong to an infinite-dimensional universe which lies in space beyond that has higher order causality

What you gave just is not a High 1-B justification. It's nothing or Low 1-A.

It is High 1-B

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

i actually agree with this one more

I don't see how them being abstract makes anymore sense than them being higher dimensional. There is currently more evidence supporting them as higher dimensional rather than abstraction seperate from space and time.

Which is why it's incalculable. It lacks the defining ways to calculate it because it's not subject to them. If they're infinite-D they can still be calculated.

If it lacks spatiotemporality as a whole then it makes no sense to why they'd need transdimensional vessels to travel from one dimensionality to another. It's also likely that this incalculable infinite is a greater infinity compared to the calculable infinite that Maltruant and the CTB could calculate.

The only thing that implies infinite-D is the phrase incalculable, but immediately afterwards they explain way: Their realm isn't subjected to space or time.

It's incalculable because you can't calculate it with math based on their dialog, not that their realm is infinite or transinfinite.

So I disagree with an upgrade. The most this means to me is that they're vaguely abstract in nature.

Additional this isn't an attempt at a High 1-B upgrade afaik. If you can't mathematically define it but it's still built upon a lower realm, you're arguing for High 1-B+ or Low 1-A upgrade with the new tiering system.

The space beyond is accepted as being a higher-order space-time and having a higher-order causality system. There are multiple layers of space and time in Ben 10 which are still quantifiable, so this has no relevance here.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Can one of you respond to him instead? It's kinda hard for someone to respond to two people at the same time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

They state themselves to belong from an incalculable dimension

They state they're incalculable because their dimension is beyond the limits of space and time. It's in the exact same sentence as the incalculable statement, so it's a statement and then evidence for that statement.

They're from a Universe from Space beyond btw

Nothing you've given supports that argument from what I see.

No, I'm arguing that they belong to an infinite-dimensional universe which lies in space beyond that has higher order causality

I'm saying you're argument is wrong. If they're beyond space-time and dimensionality then that's a Low 1-A argument now, as it means they transcend any system built upon those systems.

If it lacks spatiotemporality as a whole then it makes no sense to why they'd need transdimensional vessels to travel from one dimensionality to another.

I mean, yeah it does. They need a vessel because their original forms don't have it, so they use a vessel as a proxy.

Maltruant and the CTB could calculate.

Greenshifters argument doesn't work, as the Space Beyond still has both a spatial and temporal element. Being beyond both would make them beyond even that space, as they're outside the limits of those constructs.

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

I don't see how you can read it in any other way. They state themselves as incalculable and in the same sentence explains that it'd because they're from a realm that defies the limits of space and time.

So you're arguing that they lack those aspects, in which it's not a feat and they're abstract or you're arguing that they're Low 1-A per the FAQ:

We're not arguing that they're superior to infinite dimensions. We're arguing to prove the existence on incalculable infinite dimensions.

What you gave just is not a High 1-B justification. It's nothing or Low 1-A.

We're not arguing for superiority over these higherD. We're arguing that there is incalculable infinite higherD in the verse.

 

[Hellformer]

They state they're incalculable because their dimension is beyond the limits of space and time. It's in the exact same sentence as the incalculable statement, so it's a statement and then evidence for that statement.

It is stated to be beyond the limits of space-time in context to 3-D beings. Why are you assuming that it is referred to dimensionality as a whole when he's clearly talking to Ben and Rook.

Nothing you've given supports that argument from what I see.

Because the evidence is inside the thread, if you have read it.

I'm saying you're argument is wrong. If they're beyond space-time and dimensionality then that's a Low 1-A argument now, as it means they transcend any system built upon those systems.

NO

Greenshifters argument doesn't work, as the Space Beyond still has both a spatial and temporal element. Being beyond both would make them beyond even that space, as they're outside the limits of those constructs.

The Space Beyond/Omniverse is literally the highest form of reality in Ben 10 so assuming such a thing to be true would be a headcanon. Kindly read the cosmology page

 

[Hellformer]

Anyways I'd suggest qawsedf to wait for few time since he doesn't seem to know well about Ben 10 cosmo and let Firestorm review this thread. After that, the staffs can give their final opinion to sort out this thread for a logical conclusion.
Who else agrees with this?

 

[Greenshifter]

Greenshifters argument doesn't work, as the Space Beyond still has both a spatial and temporal element. Being beyond both would make them beyond even that space, as they're outside the limits of those constructs.

Not sure if this is currently accepted but the space beyond extends beyond “all of space and time” (17 dimensions) as defined by Azmuth and the Map of Infinity so. The universe also extends beyond the timestream which is also called space and time. So defying the limits of space and time while still being embedded in a larger space-time is nothing new in Ben 10.

And yes I probably shot every future 1-A upgrade attempt in the foot with this, idc

 

[Greenshifter]

Anyways I'd suggest qawsedf to wait for few time since he doesn't seem to know well about Ben 10 cosmo and let Firestorm review this thread. After that, the staffs can give their final opinion to sort out this thread for a logical conclusion.
Who else agrees with this?

Bruh, chill

 

[Qawsedf234]

We're not arguing that they're superior to infinite dimensions.

Being dimensions in general would get you there. It's why transcending dimensions as a concept is Low 1-A to 1-A for that reason.

We're not arguing for superiority over these higherD. We're arguing that there is incalculable infinite higherD in the verse.

I get that, my point is that the argument doesn't work with the new standards afaik. You don't just stop at infinite-D if you're superior to space-times.

It is stated to be beyond the limits of space-time in context to 3-D beings. Why are you assuming that it is referred to dimensionality as a whole when he's clearly talking to Ben and Rook.

You'd have to prove he's only talking about their senses rather than the lower worlds entirely. Especially when they've been through other dimensions and universes beforehand.

Because the evidence is inside the thread, if you have read it.

I've read the opening. I don't see where they are stated as coming from the Space Beyond.

Anyways I'd suggest qawsedf to wait for few time

If you're going to respond me I'm going to respond back. If you want to wait for Firestorm, that's fine. But I'm not going to ignore an argument directed towards me. That's just nonsensical in my view, since if the situation were reversed why would wait to respond to an argument you feel is wrong?

 

[Hellformer]

You'd have to prove he's only talking about their senses rather than the lower worlds entirely. Especially when they've been through other dimensions and universes beforehand.

"My formal denomination and the breadth of my functionality are incomprehensible to a lower life from"
Rest is explained in the OP

I've read the opening. I don't see where they are stated as coming from the Space Beyond.

The term "Universe" in Ben 10: OV refers to creations of Annihilargh which reside inside the Space Beyond.

If you're going to respond me I'm going to respond back.

I'd simply suggest you to wait for a while

If you want to wait for Firestorm, that's fine. But I'm not going to ignore an argument directed towards me.

I'm sorry if any of my comments were offensive to you, but the reason why I said was to reach the best logical conclusion with a staff who is more knowledgeable about b10 cosmology

That's just nonsensical in my view, since if the situation were reversed why would wait to respond to an argument you feel is wrong?

I would rather wait for another staff who's knowledgeable regarding the verse and then present my POV, but your view may differ.

 

[Qawsedf234]

My formal denomination and the breadth of my functionality are incomprehensible to a lower life from"

That doesn't have anything to do with the incalculable statement. That's him saying that his true form wouldn't be viewable by Ben.

The term "Universe" in Ben 10 refers to creation of Annihilargh which reside inside the Space Beyond.

Good point there I guess

I'd simply suggest you you wait for while

I'm not going to do that unless you do the same.

I'm sorry if any of my comments were offensive to you, but this the reason why I said was to reach the best logical conclusion with a staff who is more knowledgeable about b10 cosmology

Firestorm has asked me multiple times to weigh in and comment on Ben 10 cosmology and tiering threads. I can wait, but your previous comment was obviously inflammatory and you made it after posting a long counter argument.

 

[REX9097]

Being dimensions in general would get you there. It's why transcending dimensions as a concept is Low 1-A to 1-A for that reason.

What does this have to do with this CRT?

I get that, my point is that the argument doesn't work with the new standards afaik. You don't just stop at infinite-D if you're superior to space-times.

There are characters that transcend dimensions (including space-time) and are stop at infinite-D, for example Beyonder
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Beyonder#:~:text=beyond the multiverse
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/B...yond the omniverse,-, Beyonders transcend the

You'd have to prove he's only talking about their senses rather than the lower worlds entirely. Especially when they've been through other dimensions and universes beforehand

He wasn't talking about "rather than the lower worlds entirely" they were referring to Rook and Ben and the other 3-D beings not "rather than the lower worlds entirely."

I've read the opening. I don't see where they are stated as coming from the Space Beyond.

Lmao, I see that there are still people who have problems with understanding the Ben 10 Cosmology, after all they are from one of the universes in Ben 10 which is in Space Beyond (which is itself the highest form of reality) which should be Space Beyond which includes all spatiotemporal including incalculable infinite higher-D

 

[Greenshifter]

Also stating the obvious here, the “Space Beyond” is a “space”.

 

[Hellformer]

That doesn't have anything to do with the incalculable statement. That's him saying that his true form wouldn't be viewable by Ben.


Good point there I guess

I'm not going to do that unless you do the same.

Firestorm has asked me multiple times to weigh in and comment on Ben 10 cosmology and tiering threads. I can wait, but your previous comment was obviously inflammatory and you made it after posting a long counter argument.

K you can wait for few time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What does this have to do with this CRT?

I'm saying that the upgrade if passed looks like Low 1-A rather than High 1-B.

There are characters that transcend dimensions (including space-time) and are stop at infinite-D, for example Beyonder

Beyonder is infinite-D because his realm is infinite-D and transcends the lower Marvel multiverse during that era. This is not the same situation that I see with the CRT.

He wasn't talking about "rather than the lower worlds entirely" they were referring to Rook and Ben and the other 3-D beings not "rather than the lower worlds entirely."

Their statement about being beyond the limits of space and time was made before they referred to their relative positions to Ben and Rook.

Lmao, I see that there are still people who have problems with understanding the Ben 10 Cosmology,

That doesn't answer my question. They only come from the Space-Beyond in the theoretical sense that their universe floats there and is adjacent to Ben's. But nothing provided by the OP has them physical come from that Space.

you can wait for few time.

Alright, I'll just wait on Firestorm.

 

[Hellformer]

Alright, I'll just wait on Firestorm.

 

[Krazydog050]

Oh, I remember I have done this one. But the thread close because of ultima tiering system change.

 

[Celestial_Scaler25]

Oh, I remember I have done this one. But the thread close because of ultima tiering system change.

Do you agree with the CRT then?

 

[Krazydog050]

Do you agree with the CRT then?

I agree too. The explanation in comic is quite clear.

 

[Hellformer]

Assume that this page doesn't exist. Will start a fresh discussion from the next page onwards, with staffs who are knowledgeable about the verse.

 

[Firestorm808]

Per the Tiering System:

High 1-B: High Hyperverse level​

Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy infinite-dimensional space. Characters who can meddle with spaces whose number of dimensions is uncountably infinite should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Hyperverse level+).

Low 1-A: Low Outerverse level​

Characters whose power is on the level of the Von Neumann Universe. That is, they either encompass, or can affect structures which encompass, the collection including all possible dimensional spaces.

As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context. See here for more information.

The Comic Statements:

"We are beings from an incalculable dimension that defies the limits of space and time. A glorious universe unfathomable to a primitive mind such as yours"

"My formal denomination and the breadth of my functionality are incomprehensible to a lower life from"

"The final destination of our heroic voyage on this celebrated Transdimensional vessel is a small, insignificant blue planet in this star system, on which lies our destiny"

FAQ:

Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?​

A: If it refers to an actual superiority over dimensions, then there are two options available for such statements: They can either be Low 1-A, inasmuch as generic superiority over dimensions can be expressed by a structure like a proper class, a generalization of the concept of mathematical sets to collections that are deemed "too big" to be such. For example: The proper class containing all vector spaces exceeds all vector space dimensions, and this can be generalized to even wider collections.

Opinion:

I can see how the language being used can suggest a Low 1-A relationship. An incalculable, unfathomable, and incomprehensible "space" to lower life forms would still be a quantitative "space" but more than just something uncountable.

 

[REX9097]

Per the Tiering System:

High 1-B: High Hyperverse level​

Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy infinite-dimensional space. Characters who can meddle with spaces whose number of dimensions is uncountably infinite should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Hyperverse level+).

Low 1-A: Low Outerverse level​

Characters whose power is on the level of the Von Neumann Universe. That is, they either encompass, or can affect structures which encompass, the collection including all possible dimensional spaces.

As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context. See here for more information.

The Comic Statements:

"We are beings from an incalculable dimension that defies the limits of space and time. A glorious universe unfathomable to a primitive mind such as yours"

"My formal denomination and the breadth of my functionality are incomprehensible to a lower life from"

"The final destination of our heroic voyage on this celebrated Transdimensional vessel is a small, insignificant blue planet in this star system, on which lies our destiny"

FAQ:

Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?​

A: If it refers to an actual superiority over dimensions, then there are two options available for such statements: They can either be Low 1-A, inasmuch as generic superiority over dimensions can be expressed by a structure like a proper class, a generalization of the concept of mathematical sets to collections that are deemed "too big" to be such. For example: The proper class containing all vector spaces exceeds all vector space dimensions, and this can be generalized to even wider collections.

Opinion:

I can see how the language being used can suggest a Low 1-A relationship. An incalculable, unfathomable, and incomprehensible "space" to lower life forms would still be a quantitative "space" but more than just something uncountable.

So.... Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

So.... Do you agree or disagree?

He agrees with Low-1A, if his opinion section is anything to go by,

I can see how the language being used can suggest a Low 1-A relationship. An incalculable, unfathomable, and incomprehensible "space" to lower life forms would still be a quantitative "space" but more than just something uncountable.

 

[Firestorm808]

He agrees with Low-1A, if his opinion section is anything to go by,

I didn't say that yet. I said what tier the statements suggest.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I didn't say that yet. I said what tier the statements suggest.

So what do you agree with?

 

[REX9097]

I didn't say that yet. I said what tier the statements suggest.

Okay, and what do you think about CRT (we want your vote)