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Ig I was mistaken then so mistake on me. thought it was flawed to use wikipedia on here.
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RigelBR7
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Still, in the current system, a hierarchy of 12 or more higher dimensions is needed where one needs to be uncountably infinitely (aleph1) greater than the previous one. A combination of geometric axes in a quantifiable hierarchy, something that is not referenced here and has several contradictions, mainly with Omniverse and Contumélia, White Void and Forge.Still these dimensions are below Contumelia which are outside of everything including multiverse and timestream which proves that there was a reboot anyway and it is only 6D.None of the writers are quantum scientists and physicists, so this one vague episode for 26D upgrade cannot be taken into account for the contradictions.
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I don't see the issue here though. What your trying to do is define this weird barrier to cap a verse because of bunch of irrelevant stuff. again i genuilly don't remember all the fancy terms on this site so you gotta bare with my understand of your statement at hand. Reboot being 6D doesn't take away the 26D part of ben 10 though the point of reboot was to give the show a refresh start the 26D section is still canon to none reboot ben 10. "A combination of geometric axes in a quantifiable hierarchy" Idk what that means like i am sorry i've genuilly never heard that term be used once in bosonic or any paper talking about dimensionality ik its on this wiki but i forgot what its definition was. So from what i read on bosonic it shouldn't be relevant to the conversation at hand
Most of this is handle by appealing to false authority anyways but the last part. and addressed my other thoughts below.
If you have 26 spatial axis you should still none the less be 1-B. (might have the tier wrong), we still have to do the 26D supergravity if you are upholding bosonic which so far not really seen any proof for, and you yourself admitted the writers really aren't quantum physicists or scientisits which if we go with authorship theory for authortial intent being true I think the most likely assumption is just they were not talking about bosonic string theory can establish that via occomz razor.
RigelBR7
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- #44
Contumélia and White Void came later, and is on the same level as Space Beyond, even being a part of it if possible. Still being 6D space, the "26 higher dimensions" that are never referenced here are irrelevant and contradictory. And "extradimensional" space does not always mean a space with a dimension greater than 3 dimensions, it is just outside and external to the universe as well, like the Null Void itself.Contumélia and White Void are different cases, they are things that came before Timestream, space and time, and they see everything from the outside, external to everything, being only 5D. At most they are on the same level as Space Beyond, where the universes are separated by distance in the space beyond, no dimensions beyond 5^r. Forge of Creation and all these spaces only classify as 5D/6D/7D at most. The contradictions in 26D and bosonic theory are not applicable to level 1-B here, not even these dimensions scale.
Celestial_Scaler25
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Except this is not the the case. The Contumelia don't even scale to simple Annhilarrgh Universes as the Big Bangs that create them can kill them and they require specialized extradimensional barriers to keep them safe. These Universes are but specs to the Space Beyond. Read the cosmology page.
So, you want all high scaling verses to have knowledgeable quantum scientists and physicists on their writing teams for their claims to be valid? The Nalgians are a super advance race of being that see multiverse destruction level tech as toys, making them super geniuses at the very least. So their claims should be taken seriously.
RigelBR7
He/Him- 277
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- #46
It is not yet applicable and does not scale to any part of cosmology. It is very ambiguous to say this, especially because they used the association fallacy with a scene that has no relation to 26D. It has no relation, they were no longer highlighted, there are several contradictions within the work, especially after Omniverse, so they are irrelevant.And I also want to know the source where it says that these 26 dimensions are 26 geometric axes perpendicular and orthogonal to the 3 dimensions.
RigelBR7
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- #47
Of course they do. They themselves created the annihilarg and are just observers looking at everything from the outside. The more you try to relate these things to cosmology, the more contradictions arise.I also don't see the 26 higher dimensions being relevant here in something that has already been rebooted, because they aren't even really higher on an infinite scale.
Celestial_Scaler25
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Yes, what does them coming later have to do with them scaling anywhere? This is irrelevant.
The Universe is a 6D, possibly 25D space and an infidesimal spec compared to the Space Beyond.
The barrier was ment to protect them from a blast that creates 6D Universes. Tell me how in context how it could mean anything other than higher dimensional. And how it being outside universes makes any sense in context.
The Contomelia and the White Voids predate singular Annhilarrgh Universes, which hold the Timestream and it's space time causality. Not all of spacetime as the Space Beyond is a higher space-time causality than the singular Annhilarrgh Universes investing it. As per the B10 Cosmology page. The Space Beyond is far beyond the Annhilarrgh Universes and the White Voids that predated them as it dwarfs them in size as shown prior. They don't see everything genius. At their appearance in the final episode all they could see was the White Void and the Universe that came after, they even had the use the tech from their ship.
Celestial_Scaler25
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Man creates nuke, thus man now scales to nuke->
They only scale to Annhilarrgh Universes via the use of their technology. Not via pure physicals, this is why their tier is unknown and 6D with tech. Which is why they need specialized shields to protect themselves.
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wdym? why does it scale though you are saying it doesn't because of what? how is it association fallacy, if anything you have committed multiple fallacies with assuming bosonic is true and haven't stopped doing it. Fallacies are just flaws in logic after all. Why does it not have any relation to 26D though. You are basically just going "nuh uh" thats not a argument. Why do you need a source for the following? idk why it being perpendicular or orthogonal is relevant to the conversation at hand with does ben 10 run of bosonic or not. Not all higher dimensions are established by being perpendicular or orthogonal bosonic even actually talks about this, I'd bring up Time 2 showing how orthogonal works when it comes to 4D perspective but it has a very strange thought on how time works and not really relevant to the conversation.
I mean again bosonic talks about 25D+1D=26D so like if we go with the later you are changing your argument to "they aren't actually spatial axis the mom is talking about nor are they degrees of freedom but more so additional dimensions outside the Universe that have no relevance what so ever" then to help go around this nonsense you want me to somehow prove they are spatial axis that are also for some reason specifically perpendicular or orthogonal to 3D. IDK literally any human on earth who can help you with that, and like idk what even counts as proof in your mind anyways considering I established Multiple times in order for bosonic to work you still need 26 spatial axis so you are kinda changing your argument overall so we have already reached another flaw.
^ though i might be steelmanning you at parts
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Same opinion as Celestial_Scaler25.
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I asked an AI who he sided with and he chose Celestial fyi 
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damn that shit is creativeI asked an AI who he sided with and he chose Celestial fyi
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I counted 19 times
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I think this verse should be erased from the wikibruh leave my glorious star filled king alone
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frI think this verse should be erased from the wiki
Celestial_Scaler25
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"When thy enemy downplays your favorite fantasy picture, wank harder."
-Sun Tzu, probably
Forthegood
He/Him- 260
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Why does this sound straight up wrong? My question is, doesn't these Dimensions being spatial already nulls the whole notion of trying to say that they are compactified(also doesn't this contradict bosonic blah blah theory)?
RigelBR7
He/Him- 277
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- #62
It came later, invalidating the irrelevant quote of 26 from the Najilians. In current cosmology 26D is contradictory and does not scale anywhere.
Again, there is no way you can relate or much less prove this 25D/26D and beyond, unless you use the association fallacy and ignore the higher parts of the cosmology, which contradict each other.
I have yet to see you prove or reference 26D without using distinct fallacies. It's contradictory, there's no way to use this to scale the cosmology and much less is it referenced in the series other than in that episode.How many times do I have to say that this is a contradiction and you use the association fallacy to level it up. There is no evidence.
RigelBR7
He/Him- 277
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- #63
AThey are still 5D extradimensional beings that are beyond the multiverses and timestream.. You need to watch the episodes again. Now tell me where 26D is after this, without using association fallacy or hasty generalization. It's still contradictory.Invalid to use this, just to give a wank upgrade.
Man creates nuke, thus man now scales to nuke->
They only scale to Annhilarrgh Universes via the use of their technology. Not via pure physicals, this is why their tier is unknown and 6D with tech. Which is why they need specialized shields to protect themselves.
It's past 12 and I've got work tomorrow.
RigelBR7
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- #64
You are committing the fallacy of ignorance. I have already mentioned that in AF and UAF the citations of dimensions refer to quantum gravity, string theory and bosonic strings. Quantum physics in general, as referenced in Omniverse. And there needs to be a combination of geometric axes perpendicular and orthogonal to each other successively... Infinitely uncountable dimensions superior to each other, which is not referenced and evidenced in the Najilians episode, and at no other time. And they do not scale to the rest of cosmology because there are many contradictions and retcons that make it impossible to apply these 26 dimensions, even if they were in fact superior. There is no evidence that the 26D dimensions are in space beyond the Omniverse, and they don't even mention the multiverse and the like in the episode itself. Besides being stuck in the timestream. Is there a third hyperline beyond the timestream and space beyond by any chance?? Even to reach the Forge of Creation, all that is needed is a map of space-time that only extends across 17 dimensions, no 26D. In addition to Contumélia and White Space refuting this hierarchy of dimensions.As you can see there are several contradictions and there is no way to add or relate these dimensions. At least not unless you use the fallacy of association and hasty generalization to wank the verse without solid, direct evidence.
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agree
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I don't care about the OP's specifics, but isn't this the millionth thread about revising the cosmology Ben 10 had?
At this rate I think there might need to be a discussion rule about it, because it's just absurd to switch the tiers for it every few weeks like that
At this rate I think there might need to be a discussion rule about it, because it's just absurd to switch the tiers for it every few weeks like that
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um how is this a fallacy of ignorance?
Like dude I simply don't care for this weird scientific pandering argument its fundamentally logically flawed to assume this one paper is = to ben 10 and if it was up to me no verse would ever support it unless it was 1 to 1.
and? just because Forge of creation is 17D doesn't take away from 26D. again if you are going to fallacy this and that the third the same principle has to apply to you with trying to use bosonic. wdym "wank" the verse why is it wank for me to go occumz razor just straight up goes what cosmic says is 26D? like the direct evidence is what the alien said not this random scientific paper you legit have not read.
AF, and UAG citing quantum gravity doesn't support bosonic though we need 26D supergravity, we don't need string theory for bosonic string theory btw we need closed bosonic strings, open bosonic strings, gravitions (spin boys), certain other fancy stuff. name dropping quantum physics doesn't mean bosonic though dude, like all you keep doing is this weird circle argument trying to go around certain parts of bosonic let alone this massive assumption that its true because it name drops certain theories.
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I feel there has been other threads to keep changing ben 10 scaling lol
RigelBR7
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- #69
More ignorance fallacy and repetitive argument fallacy. Can't you see that it's counterintuitive and that the only basis here is association fallacy to wank in cosmology? Are you also going to claim that the 26 dimensions are above the 17 of the Infinity Map, Beyond Space and the Forge of Creation as well?? Impossible, not applicable. And you still haven't proven that the 26 bosonic dimensions are superior and transcendent, you're just assuming these things. Literally the two quotes I applied are references to quantum physics and dimensions of quantum gravity, string theory, and bosonics as well, nothing more than that, and they are not superior. They don't scale at all because they are counterintuitive and have no relation or solid evidence. Whether they are canonical or part of cosmology, it doesn't matter, they still don't scale at all.
RigelBR7
He/Him- 277
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- #70
It simply wouldn't lead anywhere. But I have another proposal: Why doesn't someone make a specific CRT separating the cosmologies by retcon? Putting all this together to make an upgrade in the cosmology is just a mess. The retcon ignores the 26D, it doesn't make sense... It is not feasible to scale and upgrade using this, as it is just fallacies of association, generalization, probability, for a wank, that's all.
Wikisource
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Argee
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I mean i would think its a association fallacy to assume bosonic.
if you would like show the class where ben 10 talks about the following so we can understand where you getting the rest of bosonic from would be helpful.
"... ... a duality under which the couplingconstant of a quantum theory changes nontrivially, including thecase of weak-strong duality. ... In compactifiedtheories, theterm S-duality is limited to those dualities that leave the radiiinvariant, up to an overall coupling-dependent rescaling ...S-duality... ... a duality in string theory, usually ina toroidally compactified theory, that leaves the couplingconstant invariant up to a radius-dependent rescaling andtherefore holds at each order of string perturbation theory. Mostnotable is R --> a' / R duality, which relates string theoriescompactified on large and small tori byinterchanging winding andKaluza-Klein states. ...T-duality... ... any of the dualities of a stringtheory ... This includes the S-dualities and T-dualities, but incontrast to these includes also transformations that mix theradiiand couplings. ..."."
Are you also going to claim that the 26 dimensions are above the 17 of the Infinity Map yes because 26D is > 17D even in bosonic which you love yo keep citing lol.
"And you still haven't proven that the 26 bosonic dimensions are superior and transcendent," idk what that even means in for bosonic. A decent diagram for this thread like this should be fine to use: all a bit i don't like to use secondary sources but its what comes to mind atm. but you've not done anything to stop supergravity from bein 26D, or the fact bosonic needing 26D to work in the first place so like kinda contradictory on your part. "Literally the two quotes I applied are references to quantum physics and dimensions of quantum gravity" which quantum gravity is mentioned a told of one time in this simple paper i repulled up "...[ with respect to ]... Even if27 dimensional flat space, M27, is a stable vacuum, one might ask what is the "ground state" of the theory at finite string coupling, or finite compactification size? Tachyon condensation is not likely to lead back to M27, and there is probably nostable minimum of the tachyon potential in 26 dimensions ...Instead, we believe . It is an old idea that quantum gravity may have an essentially topological phase with no metric. We have argued that the tachyon instability is related to nucleation of "bubbles of nothing" which is certainly reminiscent of zero metric." Not like its really relevant imo cause of supergravity.
Nothing you've sent has really any relation to bosonic string theory though you are just sending irrelevant stuff, Cool verse mentions quantum mechanics and string theory doesn't mean the verse runs off them. Same reason our Universe doesn't run off string theory when a scientist says its true.
Thats just argumentum ad verecundiam and Appeal to Intuition, Also thats like saying a 4D cube isn't 4D. if I have a 26D cube it should be 26D bosonic has to still scale to 26 dimensional in any direction you really put it in. The dimensions being compactified is because of that machine in france anyways would make them appear compactified if bosonic was actually true then they wouldn't be compactified. You then run into another issue of what do you do about the 26D particles? just cope they don't exist just to fit a narrative? sounds kinda dumb if you running with bosonic just do what bosonic says but you keep going against what bosonic says. i think you can clearly scale bosonic to said tier on here would compactified bosonic be 26D? not entirely sure but it should still have 26D supergravity which kinda in retrospect is like
"I agree ben 10 has 26D gravity hax but imma dismiss all notions of cosmology beyond 6D-7D-8D etc because it doesn't do this other super specific way to measure dimensionality"
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same thing happens to you though. like if the opposite argument is fallacious for no apparent reason cause you really doing a bad job at explaining where the flaw in logic is at, you are also doing those same fallacies trying to argue against it.... you see that is also another fallacy but oh well.... how is it probability? where is the appeal to probability at this is so confusing this is why i massivly disagree with this crt, its freaking dumb. like its borderline just appealing to possibility and then doing this weird notion of whataboutism that then just boils down into circle fallacy as given with my messages are just borderline circling with you as we aren't going to get anywhere trying to scientific pander that bosonic is supposedly true, when you yourself haven't provided any evidence the theory upholds 100%.
like i could provide you seemingly every version of bosonic theory ever written and seemingly from what i am getting you are not going to change your position given like thats all this argument has boil down to you simply don't understand how said object scales to said tier, thing because some scientific document makes it not said tier shouldn't even be consider a valid argument considering as well scaling said paper you end up at the same tier weather it runs off it or not it kinda just feels rather mute, and now its just becoming this massive circle jerk ngl
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Disagree with everything
Proof
Not really, they're not, let's get back to what the Naljian says
Proof
Naljian: You only perceive 3 dimensions, is that right?
Ben: Yeah? How many are there?
Naljian: Only 26 that matter
This means that there are more than 26, but only 26 are important for some reason, this already rules out them talking about bosonic string theory
Not really, the naljian is already talking about dimensionality, how do I know that? Well, listening tl what they say
Naljian: You only perceive 3 dimensions, is that right?
Ben: Yeah? How many are there?
Naljian: Only 26 that matter
What does perceive means?
One of the meanings is this one "to see something or someone, or to notice something that is obvious"
Saying that Ben only perceives 3 dimensions is a clearly reference to three-dimensional, since ben is a human and our universe is three-dimensional, there is no way that they are talking about compacted dimensions since she literally mentions that ben perceives 3 spatial dimensions and that there are only 26 that matter, also I wouldn't use albedo mention about the eight dimensions as a real proof, since he wasn't talking seriously when he said that because in that moment Gwen and kevin found out he wasn't the real Ben, and they were interrogating him, also when albedo mentions those 8 dimensions is because ben asked him about how he could turn off the Omnitrix and that's when albedo mentioned the 8 dimensions thing, also something that is mentioned in this episode is that Ben gets a twitch when he lies, and albedo got one when he mentioned the 8 dimensions, so yeah he was literally liying
I showed above that they aren't and the fact that in Ben 10 exist MWI doesn't make them compacted by default
That doesn't really matter, Alien Force and Omniverse exists in the same continuity, in Alien Force introduces they mentioned 26 dimensions, directly comparing them to the already known 3 dimensions and in Omniverse says the omniversal force extends in all directions, through every reality, meaning every direction those 26 axes extend must be infinite in size, unless you can proof those 26 dimensions doesn't exist inside the Omniverse, which wouldn't make any sense
So if those 26 dimensions "aren't inside the Omniverse" where are they suppose to be? Do you even have any proof that the 26 dimensions doesn't exist inside the entire Omniverse? Because if you don't and your only argument is that "those dimensions doesn't exists inside the entire Omniverse because they weren't mentioned after that episode" I could accept this argument if you mean that they aren't inside the Universe, but the entire Omniverse? You'll need more proof than that
And? It's not like that makes them stop existing or debunk anything at all
Yeah, that's not really an anti-feat, the only reason why a 3D being can't perceive a higher dimension is because that dimension extends in another direction that a 3D being can't, also this isn't an anti-feat in this wiki
Proof
Not really, they're not, let's get back to what the Naljian says
Proof
Naljian: You only perceive 3 dimensions, is that right?
Ben: Yeah? How many are there?
Naljian: Only 26 that matter
This means that there are more than 26, but only 26 are important for some reason, this already rules out them talking about bosonic string theory
Not really, the naljian is already talking about dimensionality, how do I know that? Well, listening tl what they say
Naljian: You only perceive 3 dimensions, is that right?
Ben: Yeah? How many are there?
Naljian: Only 26 that matter
What does perceive means?
One of the meanings is this one "to see something or someone, or to notice something that is obvious"
Saying that Ben only perceives 3 dimensions is a clearly reference to three-dimensional, since ben is a human and our universe is three-dimensional, there is no way that they are talking about compacted dimensions since she literally mentions that ben perceives 3 spatial dimensions and that there are only 26 that matter, also I wouldn't use albedo mention about the eight dimensions as a real proof, since he wasn't talking seriously when he said that because in that moment Gwen and kevin found out he wasn't the real Ben, and they were interrogating him, also when albedo mentions those 8 dimensions is because ben asked him about how he could turn off the Omnitrix and that's when albedo mentioned the 8 dimensions thing, also something that is mentioned in this episode is that Ben gets a twitch when he lies, and albedo got one when he mentioned the 8 dimensions, so yeah he was literally liying
I showed above that they aren't and the fact that in Ben 10 exist MWI doesn't make them compacted by default
That doesn't really matter, Alien Force and Omniverse exists in the same continuity, in Alien Force introduces they mentioned 26 dimensions, directly comparing them to the already known 3 dimensions and in Omniverse says the omniversal force extends in all directions, through every reality, meaning every direction those 26 axes extend must be infinite in size, unless you can proof those 26 dimensions doesn't exist inside the Omniverse, which wouldn't make any sense
So if those 26 dimensions "aren't inside the Omniverse" where are they suppose to be? Do you even have any proof that the 26 dimensions doesn't exist inside the entire Omniverse? Because if you don't and your only argument is that "those dimensions doesn't exists inside the entire Omniverse because they weren't mentioned after that episode" I could accept this argument if you mean that they aren't inside the Universe, but the entire Omniverse? You'll need more proof than that
And? It's not like that makes them stop existing or debunk anything at all
yeah like I said, disagree
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disagree fra
Pepsimanslover_69
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I don't find much of the OP's argument convincing, disagree fra.
Celestial_Scaler25
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No. The Contumelia are 5th dimensional beings, they're shields are extradimensional specifically cause they can't tank the creation of a single universe. Where is it stated that they are extradimensional? Give evidence of this claim.
And this is repetition fallacy. The Contumelia aren't above the Multiverse or the Timestream. The Timestream and the Annhilarrgh Universe scales to 6D. Consistent given that the bomb that creates all these things are capable of killing them. And if you are refering to the Contumelia being beyond the Annhilarrgh Universes in terms of position or size. This is incorrect as they were seen inside the White void. Meaning that they fit inside the Universe.
The 26D are in the Space Beyond as it extends past all of the Annhilarrgh Universes, Timestreams, Multiverse, Contumelia, etc. As the Omniversal force extends past the Multiverse and through all of reality.
I don't see reason why the Ben 10 cosmology needs to be seperated based of the different series they have directed shown to have connection with one another.
It's not hasty generalization or association fallacy. The Omnversal force extends through all of reality. Is the 26D part of the B10 reality, yes. Then the Omniveral force extends through it.
OMNIVERSAL-KING
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Disagree fra
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the extends in every directions / in all realities' statement has not really been properly addressed by the OP
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