Bayonetta revisions part 2

[WeeklyBattles]

So im gonna get some admins to try to wrap this up because its painfully obvious that Glass is just going to stonewall this thread into dying before its applied and a lot of people are seeing this as the inevitable result as well. Ive put in a report regarding Glass' actions here as well.

 

[InfiniteDay]

So im gonna get some admins to try to wrap this up because its painfully obvious that Glass is just going to stonewall this thread into dying before its applied and a lot of people are seeing this as the inevitable result as well. Ive put in a report regarding Glass' actions here as well.

Yes, an admin would be nice.

Addressing your last point, his actions are nowhere near stonewalling, what I would call stonewalling would be you refusing to give the scans you were asked to multiple times by multiple users, in order to prove your argument. You dodged it constantly, being uncooperative for showing evidence. This is the definition of stonewalling.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Was that video everyone was talking about ever posted? What even was it?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes, an admin would be nice.

Addressing your last point, his actions are nowhere near stonewalling, what I would call stonewalling would be you refusing to give the scans you were asked to multiple times by multiple users, in order to prove your argument. You dodged it constantly, being uncooperative for showing evidence. This is the definition of stonewalling.

Comic has posted multiple videos and i posted the entire damn thread where this was discussed multiple times. I really do not understand what more you could possibly want

 

[Comicgyal]

Was that video everyone was talking about ever posted? What even was it?

It was a video of Irenic moving faster than some of the other cars. I posted it.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Comicgyal what verse are you referring to exactly when you say “other verses have a lot of MFTL+ to immeasurable characters so Bayo shouldn’t be treated different”? Cause chances are, those other verses have those speed feats be done by the top tiers/god tiers of the verse and is consistent, which means they aren’t the best comparisons to make for Bayonetta.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Comicgyal what verse are you referring to exactly when you say “other verses have a lot of MFTL+ to immeasurable characters so Bayo shouldn’t be treated different”? Cause chances are, those other verses have those speed feats be done by the top tiers/god tiers of the verse and is consistent, which means they aren’t the best comparisons to make for Bayonetta.

There are actually very few verses where that is the case

 

[Theglassman12]

Again, give me examples, stop saying they exist and not elaborate.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody summarises the arguments of each side, I can call some more staff members to help you out.

 

[Theglassman12]

The arguments for MFTL+ Irenic scaling. There's other MFTL feats in the verse done by god tiers, and bayonetta can react to irenic, and amps are a thing.

Arguments against MFTL+ Irenic scaling.
The feat in question is FAR HIGHER than what the god tiers are capable of doing, the god tiers have a roughly 400c feat, and an uncalced feat that highballed at BEST is 7000c, which isn't shown to be a casual feat unlike what Weekly said; especially when we have another showing of Balder doing a more casual shot against Jeanne here as opposed to what he did to nuke Pluto, while Irenic's feat is in the TRILLIONS of times FTL, making the gap far too wide for this feat to be remotely consistent. Also the whole "Bayonetta can react to Irenic" is iffy at best since there's no proof that Irenic's moving at top speed, and Bayonetta's only react to a normal flying car coming at her. The massive gap in speed feats, especially when the higher level is from a FODDER tier character as opposed to the god tiers who have consistent MFTL feats in the thousands of times FTL makes this feat scaling to be very iffy.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Can the other side write a summary as well please?

 

[Comicgyal]

I will, just give me a moment please

 

[Comicgyal]

Alright sorry I’m late.

Arguments for MFTL+ speed scaling.

• All verse characters can amp themselves to absurd levels.

Due to the witch time thread, it has been accepted that the basically every character in the verse can amplify their speeds, but to save trouble I’ll send the main points here.

For the angels first amplifying feat, we have Bayonetta and Jeanne fighting atop of a falling plane. In this battle one Angel noticeably breaks free of Bayonettas Witch time, meaning that Angel “Amped” itself to match her speed. Another instance is during the fight with Fortitudo, where he also “Amps” himself to keep pace with Bayonetta, while her witch time is activated. (If the embedded timestamps don’t work, please let me know <3) This proves that the angels can indeed amp themselves, to a point where they can match the higher tiers in terms of speed.

What this means is, since the angels can amp themselves, as can Bayonetta and Balder, mostly everyone’s speed can be relative to one another. Therefore even if Irenics feat is trillions of times faster than the normal feats, it’s nothing out of the question for Bayonetta and some other characters to replicate. They don’t have to scale for flight speed (is that what you guys call it?) but combat speed and reactions is definitely accessible scaling. If you look at the last thread before this, scaling to Irenic via combat speed and reactions was previously accepted, which is why some of the pages have it added already.

• The inherent hierarchy, that makes Irenics feat nothing impressive

While some of the other feats pale in comparison to Irenic, this is actually for good reason. Irenics case as an Angel is very special, he was a messenger Angel that was created before history, tasked with spreading gods word around Paradiso. Which means Irenic naturally has to boast absurd speed feats, while some of the other angels do not. However, due to the angelic hierarchy, Irenic would pale in comparison to other characters.

To explain, Irenic is classified as a third sphere angel, but with first sphere halos. This means that Irenic has the spiritual existence, and power of a first sphere, since halos are representative of their power. The spiritual existence is also something to take note of. Angels that are first sphere have higher existences than a second sphere, and so on. Meaning that characters above Irenic in the hierarchy (The cardinal virtues, Jubileus, Rodin, Balder, Aesir, etc) are all much much more powerful than him, and therefore their attributes are better.

Angels and others above first spheres are by Bayonetta standards, and VSBW standards, infinitely more powerful than Irenic, with attributes that far exceeds it. In no way would it make sense that Aesir, a god who surpasses time and space, is fodder speed wise to a first sphere Angel. Every character simply upscales from Irenic, which I believe is the case for a few verses on this site, that upscales speed feats or other attributes from “Weaker” characters.

• Proposals

Bayonetta and characters on her level, can either have their profiles changed in a few ways. We can either keep the changes we have currently, which means some characters would scale in combat speed and reactions with amps. Or we can acknowledge that some characters would just be stronger and much faster than Irenic naturally, and upscale those higher tiered characters in all categories. Given what I explained about the hierarchy and the halos, it is again not unjustifiable that Jubileus, the god who created the verse and Irenic itself, would scale upwards from that speed feat.

His feat is just another, albeit more impactful, display of how angels can have absurd attributes given the sphere they belong in. It is less of an outlier, and more of a means to scale other characters without having them break the plot too drastically.

 

[Antvasima]

The arguments for MFTL+ Irenic scaling. There's other MFTL feats in the verse done by god tiers, and bayonetta can react to irenic, and amps are a thing.

Arguments against MFTL+ Irenic scaling.
The feat in question is FAR HIGHER than what the god tiers are capable of doing, the god tiers have a roughly 400c feat, and an uncalced feat that highballed at BEST is 7000c, which isn't shown to be a casual feat unlike what Weekly said; especially when we have another showing of Balder doing a more casual shot against Jeanne here as opposed to what he did to nuke Pluto, while Irenic's feat is in the TRILLIONS of times FTL, making the gap far too wide for this feat to be remotely consistent. Also the whole "Bayonetta can react to Irenic" is iffy at best since there's no proof that Irenic's moving at top speed, and Bayonetta's only react to a normal flying car coming at her. The massive gap in speed feats, especially when the higher level is from a FODDER tier character as opposed to the god tiers who have consistent MFTL feats in the thousands of times FTL makes this feat scaling to be very iffy.

Alright sorry I’m late.

Arguments for MFTL+ speed scaling.

• All verse characters can amp themselves to absurd levels.

Due to the witch time thread, it has been accepted that the basically every character in the verse can amplify their speeds, but to save trouble I’ll send the main points here.

For the angels first amplifying feat, we have Bayonetta and Jeanne fighting atop of a falling plane. In this battle one Angel noticeably breaks free of Bayonettas Witch time, meaning that Angel “Amped” itself to match her speed. Another instance is during the fight with Fortitudo, where he also “Amps” himself to keep pace with Bayonetta, while her witch time is activated. (If the embedded timestamps don’t work, please let me know <3) This proves that the angels can indeed amp themselves, to a point where they can match the higher tiers in terms of speed.

What this means is, since the angels can amp themselves, as can Bayonetta and Balder, mostly everyone’s speed can be relative to one another. Therefore even if Irenics feat is trillions of times faster than the normal feats, it’s nothing out of the question for Bayonetta and some other characters to replicate. They don’t have to scale for flight speed (is that what you guys call it?) but combat speed and reactions is definitely accessible scaling. If you look at the last thread before this, scaling to Irenic via combat speed and reactions was previously accepted, which is why some of the pages have it added already.

• The inherent hierarchy, that makes Irenics feat nothing impressive

While some of the other feats pale in comparison to Irenic, this is actually for good reason. Irenics case as an Angel is very special, he was a messenger Angel that was created before history, tasked with spreading gods word around Paradiso. Which means Irenic naturally has to boast absurd speed feats, while some of the other angels do not. However, due to the angelic hierarchy, Irenic would pale in comparison to other characters.

To explain, Irenic is classified as a third sphere angel, but with first sphere halos. This means that Irenic has the spiritual existence, and power of a first sphere, since halos are representative of their power. The spiritual existence is also something to take note of. Angels that are first sphere have higher existences than a second sphere, and so on. Meaning that characters above Irenic in the hierarchy (The cardinal virtues, Jubileus, Rodin, Balder, Aesir, etc) are all much much more powerful than him, and therefore their attributes are better.

Angels and others above first spheres are by Bayonetta standards, and VSBW standards, infinitely more powerful than Irenic, with attributes that far exceeds it. In no way would it make sense that Aesir, a god who surpasses time and space, is fodder speed wise to a first sphere Angel. Every character simply upscales from Irenic, which I believe is the case for a few verses on this site, that upscales speed feats or other attributes from “Weaker” characters.

• Proposals

Bayonetta and characters on her level, can either have their profiles changed in a few ways. We can either keep the changes we have currently, which means some characters would scale in combat speed and reactions with amps. Or we can acknowledge that some characters would just be stronger and much faster than Irenic naturally, and upscale those higher tiered characters in all categories. Given what I explained about the hierarchy and the halos, it is again not unjustifiable that Jubileus, the god who created the verse and Irenic itself, would scale upwards from that speed feat.

His feat is just another, albeit more impactful, display of how angels can have absurd attributes given the sphere they belong in. It is less of an outlier, and more of a means to scale other characters without having them break the plot too drastically.

@Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

I would appreciate if some of you would be willing to help evaluate this please.

 

[Planck69]

I find myself agreeing with Theglassman, going through both summaries.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I find myself agreeing with Theglassman, going through both summaries.

Might i ask why?

 

[Planck69]

I mean, based on what I can understand, the feat is performed by a fairly low level character and is league above anything else shown by high-tiers or top-tier of the setting.

Considering that said high-tiers have no feats on this level and said feats don't seem to be that casual, it makes more sense to me for this to be too inconsistent to scale.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The arguments for MFTL+ Irenic scaling. There's other MFTL feats in the verse done by god tiers, and bayonetta can react to irenic, and amps are a thing.

Arguments against MFTL+ Irenic scaling.
The feat in question is FAR HIGHER than what the god tiers are capable of doing, the god tiers have a roughly 400c feat, and an uncalced feat that highballed at BEST is 7000c, which isn't shown to be a casual feat unlike what Weekly said; especially when we have another showing of Balder doing a more casual shot against Jeanne here as opposed to what he did to nuke Pluto, while Irenic's feat is in the TRILLIONS of times FTL, making the gap far too wide for this feat to be remotely consistent. Also the whole "Bayonetta can react to Irenic" is iffy at best since there's no proof that Irenic's moving at top speed, and Bayonetta's only react to a normal flying car coming at her. The massive gap in speed feats, especially when the higher level is from a FODDER tier character as opposed to the god tiers who have consistent MFTL feats in the thousands of times FTL makes this feat scaling to be very iffy.

If youre going to be writing up a summary of your argument at least tell the truth for once.

Fodders in Bayonetta are canonically faster than the god tiers, especially a fodder that was specifically created by Jubileus, the god tier, to move faster than Jubileus, something you continue to ignore for any number of biased reasons.

All three of the other MFTL+ feats are casual contrary to whatever backwards logic you try to use to claim theyre not. Theyre done to activate Witch Time which is done so casually in the verse that it is canonically an instinctive reaction, they dont even need to think to be able to use it.

I still have no idea why you keep bringing up Balder shooting lasers when its not a feat that we're using.

There was an entire discussion thread that proved that fodder are faster than Jubileus whether you like it or not. Dont like it? Reopen it and dispute it there, dont try to bullshit people with your lies here just because youre biased against this verse.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean, based on what I can understand, the feat is performed by a fairly low level character and is league above anything else shown by high-tiers or top-tier of the setting.

1. Said low level character has the power of a high level character given its ranking and it was create specifically by the god of the verse to be a messenger that can move faster than it.

2. There was an entire 5 page long discussion thread that agreed that fodder of the verse can and are faster than the god of the verse.

3. Glass conveniently leaves out that the feat itself is only scaling to reactions of the top tiers, not to the general movement speed of everyone in the verse. No one else in the verse has travel speed on that level nor is anyone arguing that they should in this thread, only reactions.

Considering that said high-tiers have no feats on this level and said feats don't seem to be that casual, it makes more sense to me for this to be too inconsistent to scale.

They are 10000% casual, the feats are literally instinctual, they dont even have to think to perform them and they have three other MFTL+ feats to back up this rating. Ive used this analogy a lot but its like saying that a person who dodges lightning onec with effort and then dodges bullets a hundred times casually shouldnt be MHS because they have more bullet dodging feats than lightning dodging feats without taking into context that the lightning was done with effort and the bullets were all casual

 

[Planck69]

1. Said low level character has the power of a high level character given its ranking and it was create specifically by the god of the verse to be a messenger that can move faster than it.

Fair then, though I'm unclear on how everyone is faster than the god-tier. I'll wait for more elaboration from others.

2. There was an entire 5 page long discussion thread that agreed that fodder of the verse can and are faster than the god of the verse.

Can you point me to where exactly this is agreed? All I see is that Witch Time was accepted as a speed amp (?)

3. Glass conveniently leaves out that the feat itself is only scaling to reactions of the top tiers, not to the general movement speed of everyone in the verse. No one else in the verse has travel speed on that level nor is anyone arguing that they should in this thread, only reactions.

They are 10000% casual, the feats are literally instinctual, they dont even have to think to perform them and they have three other MFTL+ feats to back up this rating. Ive used this analogy a lot but its like saying that a person who dodges lightning onec with effort and then dodges bullets a hundred times casually shouldnt be MHS because they have more bullet dodging feats than lightning dodging feats without taking into context that the lightning was done with effort and the bullets were all casual

The analogy is a bit wrong there. The feat happens but the issue is whether scaling makes sense. This would be akin to a guy dodging lightning in one nanosecond and everyone above him only having bullet dodging feats (casual or otherwise). I suppose if there was another feat supporting this or at least no contradiction then I'd accept it more easily.

I'll wait for Theglassman's response though before committing myself to either side.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Planck.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Can you point me to where exactly this is agreed? All I see is that Witch Time was accepted as a speed amp (?)

The entire thread, a big part of why that revision was accepted was because of Angels being able to move faster than Jubileus as well as canonically amp themselves to match Bayonetta when she's using Witch Time, something Jubileus is unable to do

The analogy is a bit wrong there. The feat happens but the issue is whether scaling makes sense. This would be akin to a guy dodging lightning in one nanosecond and everyone above him only having bullet dodging feats (casual or otherwise).

How so? Bayonetta has the fastest reaction time out of anyone in the game, there isnt anyone above her other than arguably Aesir

 

[Planck69]

The entire thread, a big part of why that revision was accepted was because of Angels being able to move faster than Jubileus as well as canonically amp themselves to match Bayonetta when she's using Witch Time, something Jubileus is unable to do

How so? Bayonetta has the fastest reaction time out of anyone in the game, there isnt anyone above her other than arguably Aesir

I see. Well, I'm neutral then. I'll wait on glass to respond, if he will, before making any final decision.

 

[Theglassman12]

@WeeklyBattles So you're just proving my point that the god tiers don't scale if they're absurdly faster.

Congratulations you forgot about the part where you mentioned these feats to be something the god tiers scale to.

Theres near-dead Jubileus crossing th solar systm instantly (398 c), Jeanne dodging meteors that traveled from Pluto to Earth in 7 seconds (4000+ c), and Bayonetta dodging a lightspeed beam when it is a fraction of a milimeter away from her (Uncalced awating a calculation but estimated to be in the thousands of c by two calc members)

The Pluto feat is also caused by Balder when he's charging up the cannon with his right eye, something I mentioned in my post so stop ignoring debunks.

Says the liar who blatantly took Zephyros' quotes out of context to make it look like both sides agreed with you, the same liar who back when Bayo's in character mindset was debunked to not go to purgatorio in the start of the fight you flat out lied about bayo's matches hinging on the fact that she starts off with that move just so she wouldn't lose her wins, also I can easily flip the script by saying you're only doing this because you love Bayonetta, which considering your track record isn't a far fetched solution. We can play this accusation card all day and I have more proof against you than you do against me.

The Low level being is also a 3rd sphere ranked angel, that's the LOWEST of the ranking for the angels. I'm not even focusing on the reacting to top tiers because you refuse to post any clips or proof that Irenic is moving at top speed, which isn't proven at all in the very clip Irenic's shown.

They're not casual, stop lying and pay attention to the balder feat cause there's a distinct difference in how serious his fires are compared to his normal shots.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Just to clarify, @Theglassman12, do you agree the original upgrade, which was "with amps"?

 

[Theglassman12]

Not really cause there's no proof they reacted to Irenic's top speed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I was on the Witch Time thread. There was an entire thread basically saying that Witch Time is a speed amplification rather than a time slow on the environment. And basically how it works is the stronger Witch Time reacts and develops, the closer and closer Bayonetta gets to infinite speed.

Fodder enemies are only faster than most God Tiers/protagonists in terms of flight speed, not combat speed. Most characters with true flight are regularly able to fly across the universe it seems. And the only real "Anti-feats" are more or less due to the lack of True Flight and not so much an anti feat for speed specifically. And to my knowledge, the context behind the low end Massively FTL+ feats is more or less the context of a character did a Low 6-B Earth shaking feat without even trying despite being scaled from a Universal feat.

 

[Theglassman12]

And Balder's charged up laser beam which he put effort in, the same laser that destroyed pluto. That's not a casual feat.

 

[Comicgyal]

Are we mentioning Pluto because of the speed the laser travelled?

 

[Theglassman12]

yes, highballing the pluto laser feat to reach pluto it reaches somewhat above 7000c.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, I was on the Witch Time thread. There was an entire thread basically saying that Witch Time is a speed amplification rather than a time slow on the environment. And basically how it works is the stronger Witch Time reacts and develops, the closer and closer Bayonetta gets to infinite speed.

Fodder enemies are only faster than most God Tiers/protagonists in terms of flight speed, not combat speed. Most characters with true flight are regularly able to fly across the universe it seems. And the only real "Anti-feats" are more or less due to the lack of True Flight and not so much an anti feat for speed specifically. And to my knowledge, the context behind the low end Massively FTL+ feats is more or less the context of a character did a Low 6-B Earth shaking feat without even trying despite being scaled from a Universal feat.

Thank you for helping out Medeus.

Should we apply this interpretation then?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

yes, highballing the pluto laser feat to reach pluto it reaches somewhat above 7000c.

I dont know why you're bringing up the laser at all though, the feat in question is jeanne dodging the meteors not the laser

 

[Cyberblader90]

laser would apply for attack speed i think, for jubileus

 

[WeeklyBattles]

laser would apply for attack speed i think, for jubileus

No but I mean no one scales to it so i dont see why it's relevant to the conversation

Plus even if it did scale to Jubileus it would be another casual feat as Jubileus hadnt even fully awoken yet

 

[Theglassman12]

It scales to anyone with a single eye since Balder with the right eye did that feat, and I’m bringing that feat up because you keep saying all the feats are casual when they’re not. Balder’s Pluto feat is an example of that.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we apply what Medeus thought seems reasonable?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It scales to anyone with a single eye since Balder with the right eye did that feat, and I’m bringing that feat up because you keep saying all the feats are casual when they’re not. Balder’s Pluto feat is an example of that.

It wasnt Balder that did it though? That was Jubileus, and again yes, it was absolutely casual as it was done when sh wasnt even awakened yet

Thus far you havent provided any evidence that th feats are not casual other than you saying so

 

[Comicgyal]

Should we apply what Medeus thought seems reasonable?

We most likely should. It would keep this thread from dragging along any further.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is somebody here willing to handle it?