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Battle for Dream Island: Power of Upgrades, Part II: Tiers

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Continuation from Part 1, which focused on the ability additions. For here, this will focus on the tier and stat changes, the major part.

So far, the contestants have been rated Large Town-City for quite a while now. But that will now change due to some impressive feats that have been showcased lately. What I mean is how the contestants have been consistently taking hits from an aggressive Four, and I left this out as casual originally. However, nothing ever implied Four was being casual, at all. The only times he has ever killed them was by something negating durability, such as mutilation or the Anti-Flying Button. And while you could say Gelatin was nearly killed from Four assaulting him, thats because he did it with multiple attacks, and wouldve killed him had it not been X interrupting at the last second. Same can be said with Lollipop: multiple strikes went too fast which killed her. Not to mention, Four was able to throw Black Hole, where literally the other members of Death PACT were also in it, and were fine, and Black Hole already weighs 20 solar masses.

There has also been a feat of the Have Cots moving the sun at FTL speeds, and that happens to be consistent with Needle’s feat crashing into her cake. Plus, it is backed up with the aforementioned Large Planetary feats.

And since I have mentioned FTL speeds, that is also consistent with Flower and Spongy being able to react to lasers, as well as the Have Cots traveling an eighth of the sun in merely about a second.

The contestants should also get at least Class M lifting strength scaling from Pin, who lifted up a side of the Eiffel Tower. The Have Cots were also capable of moving the sun at FTL speeds, so that can also be Stellar, consistent with Four’s feats of moving Black Hole.


About Anti Feats/Gags
The Anti-Feat for the contestants not being 5-A is the fact on how 8-Ball was crushed to death by the moon, albeit it is only just 1 anti-feat, compared to the numerous other feats that happen consistently where they take hits from Four.

About Needle’s feat of crashing into her star cake to destroy it, we never see her for a week. It is very well implied she was not KO’d by this, given how she was still conscious afterwards and even before she crashes, and a week later, she was perfectly fine, with no injuries, regardless of whether she was knocked out or not.

I would also like to mention how there have been deaths caused by lesser feats, such as Pin being crushed to death by a tree, or Puffball, Fries, and Evil Leafy being crushed to death by a massive weight. However, those anti-feats are also outnumbered by the amount of consistent tier 7 feats, as well as tier 8 feats to back it up, and therefore should be no reason that they should not scale the slightest to 5-A, if that is the case.

No anti-feats for speed, however.

Stat Proposals for the Contestants

Tier: High 7-C, likely 5-A, possibly 4-C


'''[[Attack Potency]]:''' '''Large Town level+''' (Can trade blows with those capable of harming him/her, such as those comparable to Needle, who survived being launched to Yoyleland in a few seconds along with the rest of WOAH Bunch), likely '''Large Planet level''' (Comparable to his/her own durability, comparable to members of the Have Nots who are able to [[User blog:psychomaster35/BFDI: Rotating the Earth by running in place|rotate the Earth at Sub-Relativistic speeds]]), possibly '''Star level''' (Comparable to those capable of harming Needle, who could survive crashing into her star-sized cake, destroying it. Comparable to members of the Have Cots, who were capable of moving the sun at faster than light speeds), '''Large Star level''' with a spaceship ([[User blog:psychomaster35/BFDI: Super Speedo Sun Enlargement|A laser from it is capable of growing the sun]])


Side note: The spaceship is only for Firey, Leafy, Bubble, and Spongy.


'''[[Speed]]:''' '''FTL''' (Able to keep up with other contestants who can [[User blog:psychomaster35/More BFDI assorted calcs#Spaceships outrun lasers|react to]] [[User blog:psychomaster35/More BFDI assorted calcs#Flower reflects lasers|lasers]], moved the sun to the other side of Earth alongside her other members within seconds)


'''[[Lifting Strength]]:''' '''Varies''' from '''Class M''' (Comparable to Pin, who could lift a portion of the Eiffel Tower with ease) to '''Stellar''' (Comparable to members of the Have Cots, who were able to move the sun at faster than light speeds)


'''[[Striking Strength]]:''' '''Large Town Class+''', likely '''Large Planet Class''', possibly '''Star Class'''



'''[[Durability]]:''' '''Large Town level+''' (Able to tank blows from those comparable to him/her), likely '''Large Planet level''' (Comparable to other contestants who can consistently survive hits from an aggressive [[Four (Battle for Dream Island)|Four]], despite being depicted weaker than him), possibly '''Star level''' (Traded blows with Needle), At least '''Large Star level''' with a spaceship (Should be more durable than his/her base)



Alternatively, I am fine if it is “Varies from High 7-C to 5-A, at most 4-C”.


As for the high tiers, such as Four and Black Hole, they get “5-A, possibly 4-C”, since Black Hole was capable of one-shotting Pen and is already stated to be a threat to the Earth.


Change the emojis to the “: P” (Without the space). I dont know why it is like that. If you want a more clearer version of how it will be as reference, check this out.

Update
The proposed tier has been decided to be “Varies from High 7-C to 5-A, at most High 4-C”, but another claimed it was “at most 4-C” due to how the supporting feat for High 4-C (being calced at Low 4-C) was vague due to how it was unknown what happened to her since she wasnt seen in a week despite being perfectly fine afterwards when she landed back. But the verse is already inconsistent to begin with, and if she survived, that already becomes a supporting feat for a tier.
Conclusion
New abilities listed above are added, and some proposed stat revisions.

Votes
Agree with “at most High 4-C”: 6? (Soupywolf5, James Plays 4 Games, FRIMI?, GoCommitDi, Colonel Krukov, DarkDragonMedeus)

Agree with “at most 4-C”: 1 (I’m Blue daba dee daba die)


Neutral: 1 (Bobsican)

Iffy on some, but agree:

Disagree with all:
 
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Antvasima

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Which members other than me helped you out with the previous thread?
 
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Celestial Pegasus, FRIMI, and Soupywolf5. Though I have also messaged them to comment here alongside you for input.
 
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I still don't like the idea of 5-A contestants, but there isn't really a whole lot I can say of substance, so I guess this looks good to me
 
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I still don't like the idea of 5-A contestants, but there isn't really a whole lot I can say of substance, so I guess this looks good to me
It’s consistent with the numerous times they took hits from Four that wasnt anything durability negating, and the Have Cots even managed to rotate the Earth rated at that tier.
The only reason why I said it to be “likely” is because of the one anti-feat in the gap between them being Large Town and Large Planet, but it overall gets outnumbered anyways.
 
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just doesn't really fit with the feel of BFB. Like, Four is clearly supposed to be leagues above any given contestant
 
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So? That would just mean he upscales, especially from the Earth rotation feat the the contestants did, not Four. Not to mention how FoF Donut’s feat was casual since he mostly had no control of Four’s powers due to inexperience.
 
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Alright, finally this can happen.
FTL speed for characters: It would be a shame if this did not happen, it is super consistent.
Celestial power for contestants: I am a bit iffy on that. Yes the contestants have been able to survive Four, and yes contestants have one-shot each other before, yes they've got the feats, but it just doesn't make too much sense. In this kind of debate, we can't have lower-tiers scaling or have similar strength to higher-tiers even though they have interacted with each other or had a lot of feats, situations like Goomba from Super Mario being multiverse level would be real if that were the case. There have been times when Four easily outclassed other characters without hax: , , https://youtu.be/MiZ8V3NHwfM?t=313, https://youtu.be/ES9CvQRJqRM?t=23, https://youtu.be/DGIZyD5-5gE?t=274, https://youtu.be/X7ZoFJhBE5o?t=179, https://youtu.be/gI40pUTzGPI?t=252, , & . (He doesn't need to kill them to prove he is much stronger.) The part with patting Lollipop was casual, Four was gently patting her, then started doing it harder which caused Lollipop to break (just by being patted). There is a work around. Four was able to throw Black Hole without growing, and he has a mass of twenty suns, so if Four is solar system level without growing in size, there is no reason to say the contestants can't be star level and lose to Four.
Eiffel Tower lifting strength: Yes, but if you will be giving the contestants celestial power, you are forgetting something better. 8-Ball didn't get crushed by the moon immediately, it was slow, kind of like he was lifting it to try and prevent himself from getting crushed. That would be stronger than Pin's feat of lifting the Eiffel Tower.
 
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>In this kind of debate, we can't have lower-tiers scaling or have similar strength to higher-tiers even though they have interacted with each other or had a lot of feats, situations like Goomba from Super Mario being multiverse level would be real if that were the case. There have been times when Four easily outclassed other characters without hax

The contestants have consistently already been taking hits from Four, especially when aggressive. Just because Four is depicted higher than them doesnt mean they dont completely scale to him, it just means Four upscales, and is why I put a likely rating. Plus, using that Goomba reasoning is bad, because that is already game mechanics for them being able to one-shot when it never happens in canon otherwise.

>The part with patting Lollipop was casual, Four was gently patting her, then started doing it harder which caused Lollipop to break (just by being patted).

So? He does it ridiculously fast to the point this would merely be DBZ if he is hitting her faster tens times in less than a second.

>Four was able to throw Black Hole without growing, and he has a mass of twenty suns, so if Four is solar system level without growing in size

No he isnt, he threw Black hole much slower than he did in his large form. And we cant assume the same attack speed as what he did in the first episode, because that would be considered calc stacking.

>8-Ball didn't get crushed by the moon immediately, it was slow, kind of like he was lifting it to try and prevent himself from getting crushed.

Didnt look like he was lifting it, especially since he has no arms. Though his body WAS able to resist for a bit before finally being crushed to dust. Not that it matters anyways, since the Have Cots could move the sun.
 
1) So you mean it is something like Four is at least whatever the contestants are going to be?
2) When looking at the visual speed, remember that contestants have done faster. I don't know what the speed of this is supposed to prove, it was still Four being gentile and then started going faster which caused destruction of Lollipop. That's common with the scans I showed before, Four accidentally hurts characters sometimes.
3) Just moving Black Hole would be solar system level wouldn't it be?
4) That's what I was referring to, he was resisting the moon crushing him. And if the contestants have the moving the sun feat, then that's even better, don't use Pin's lifting strength feat.
 
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1. Yes
2. He was still doing it harder and faster to the point of killing, but he would just upscale otherwise.
3. Not always. You always have to account for KE of the speed you see him being thrown at, even if its less than their usual attack speed. Also, I recall calculating Four throwing Black Hole to be Planet+ or Large Planet
4. I was saying a Varies rating should work, given how the stellar rating required the Have Cots to push the sun, which already warranted a Star rating. The low end point is scaling to Pin’s feat.
 
1) I dunno... while the contestants are sometimes comparable to Four, other times they aren't. I consider the contestants very inconsistent. Now that makes me think their rank should vary. You could rank them based on their highest showing. Do whatever you want with inconsistent characters I guess, those are too hard for me to rank.
2) This is pretty much the same as point one now so I won't have a duplicate response.
3) It's better off just being muscle, lifting strength for Four, as it is already.
4) It's funny that we thought of the same thing, their rank varying. That's conveniently conclusive.
 
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Of course, I do not agree with placing them less than High 7-C, which is their consistent low end. Their high end would be 4-C, and a mid end would be 5-A. All in all, I am fine if this is like Courage being rated: in other words, a Varies tier.
 
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Yes, because it was yet to be placed here, but I have also calculated that to be MFTL+ because of one scene in BFDI 21 where it was flying back to Earth, and it flies past multiple stars in less than a second.
Also, its already listed in the link.
 

Antvasima

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Psychomaster35:

Can you summarise the reasons for all statistics that you wish to change please? Including linking to the calculations that they are based on.

@Celestial_Pegasus @Soupywolf5

Can you help out here please?
 
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The contestants’ tiers will be changed to “Varies from High 7-C to 5-A, at most 4-C“, given how overall, it has been concluded that they tend to be inconsistent at certain times, but consistent otherwise at certain moments at the same time. Such as one anti-feat hindering 5-A, but it is outnumbered consistently anyway.

Ill start off with explaining the AP.

The warranting for High 7-C (low end) is from a calculation currently on their profiles: Woah Bunch being flung to Yoyleland. The warranting for 5-A (mid end) comes from the contestants being able to consistently take hits from Four, who upscales from an inexperienced Donut using Four’s powers to move the Earth, and the contestants (members of the Have Nots, specifically) even managed to pull off a 5-A feat themselves, which was rotating the Earth by 5 people running. The warranting for 4-C (high end) comes from the Have Cots moving the sun at FTL speeds, which is consistent with Needle crashing into her cake (which had grown into a star) to destroy it.

The ones who are an exception to this are Four, Factor of Four Donut, and Black Hole, who would scale to “Varies from 5-A to 4-C”, since they are regarded as top tiers of the verse (Four has pulled off a few tier 5 feats, Donut has Four’s powers, and Black Hole at his lowest was stated to be a threat to Earth)

Speed:

The contestants will also get FTL speed since there have been times they have consistently dodged lasers shown here:



Also, the aforementioned 4-C feat above showed them already traveling a side of the sun (about an eighth) in seconds, and pushing it at speeds faster than light.
 
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Antvasima

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I also think that this seems to make sense based on the explanation, but it is best to wait for Celestial_Pegasus.
 
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I can understand that there are only 2 tier 4 feats (not coming from the first episode of BFB), but it is supported by tier 5-A feats. I get that it would only make sense for it to scale as varying overall, similarly to Courage the Cowardly Dog.

As for the varying speed, I see no reason it should be varying, given how there does not exist any anti-feats supporting it, and FTL is surprisingly consistent via what the Have Cots did to the sun as well as Flower and Spongy reacting to lasers, so it wouldn't be just reactions.
 
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As for the varying speed, I see no reason it should be varying, given how there does not exist any anti-feats supporting it, and FTL is surprisingly consistent via what the Have Cots did to the sun
FTL reactions are consistent enough, but there have been various times in the show which the cast's running speed has been relatively slow compared to FTL. Maybe we can say this is Plot Armour, but let's wait until a few staff come and evaluate
 

Antvasima

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I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.
 
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@Soupywolf5 More notably, the calculation of the Have Cots moving the sun, with my recalc on it. It contains said FTL feat and the evidence of the verse being 4-C at their peak.
 
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Its consistent regardless, it wouldn't need a varies tier. Many other characters have been shown to be casual in speed anyways for the sake of it.

The sun feat has 2 FTL movement feats, so I don't see how this contradicts anything where the anti feat given was not a gag. Even then, remember this was done much later in BFB, so its very well noted that they improved overtime for the sake of the competition.
 
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So, I was wondering, for the Sun calcs, since both feats (The Have Cots running across an eighth of its circumference and moving it by jumping) happen after the Sun was enlarged, should I use the size calculated for the large Sun, or would that be calc-stacking?
 
Its consistent regardless, it wouldn't need a varies tier. Many other characters have been shown to be casual in speed anyways for the sake of it.

The sun feat has 2 FTL movement feats, so I don't see how this contradicts anything where the anti feat given was not a gag. Even then, remember this was done much later in BFB, so its very well noted that they improved overtime for the sake of the competition.
Not really, the best casual speed feats in BFB range range from Hypersonic+ to Sub-Rel. The FTL feats were the only ones in the entire season.

Plus, you need a source they grew in power, or else it's Headcanon
 
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It doesnt matter of the FTL feats came from one season, itfact, it came from 2.

Think of it like this: Do we ignore any of Mario’s MFTL+ feats in future games as it goes on? No.
 
It doesnt matter of the FTL feats came from one season, itfact, it came from 2.

Think of it like this: Do we ignore any of Mario’s MFTL+ feats in future games as it goes on? No.
1. I thought the FTL running feat came from BFB 20 (I season), I know there have been consistent FTL reactions in other series, which I already agreed with???

2. Mario may be downgraded, not really a good example.
 
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I was referring to the FTL feats being from Seasons 1 and 4

But the point is, the FTL running speed is consistent with the reactions, and I do not see anything that contradicts this as an anti-feat.

Counted at least 4 (possibly 5) FTL feats: 2 were reactions (one with leg movement), and 2 (possibly 3) of them were movement. After all, Flower did need to turn around before the laser hit her, which involved moving her legs (even if she was standing in the same place), so at least she moved faster than the laser to react to it.

Why 3 movement feats? Because Puffball was able to keep up with Spongy’s private jet, which was able to go a decent bit into space rather quickly. I might need to go calculate it first, but if it is FTL (or rather close, like Relativistic+), that is consistent with the movement.
 
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I still need input here

Like, any conclusions?
I have said that FTL is a definite yes, so that's a conclusion. I have said that since there have been numerous times where Four has been shown to be physically much stronger than others, Four should be at least the power of the contestants, and the contestants should vary, which is a conclusion. Same conclusion with lifting strength. We'll just wait until others agree.
 
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So full solid FTL? Yes, I agree with that.

Though, Gelatin freezing Flower was just her being caught off guard, so thats a bad example. Other than that, everything else is fine.
 
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Once again, that was an off guard moment for Flower. Also, that laser! Didnt notice it. That can easily be another supporting feat for FTL then.
 
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I still disagree with you about FTL not being solid. As I said, 3 FTL movement feats were shown already, and I see no reason it is varies due to no anti-feats.
 
Every time in the show during movement which WASN'T FTL??? (Puffball flying to space, Flower running up the stairs, Flower running to the warehouse, traveling times during BFDI and BFDIA)
 
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So? That doesn't even matter if they are depicted slower than before.

Do we ever ignore Mario’s FTL feats because it only happened in a few games? No. Do we ever ignore Mega Man’s FTL feats because it only happened in a few games? Also no. Do we ever ignore Looney Toons’ FTL feats (for top tiers) because it only happened in a minority of episodes while most of them were depicted slower? No.

See what I mean? Its simply just Cinematic Time. Even if characters who have performed FTL feats are slower than others, it just means those people would be FTL as well. And even if they are depicted much slower than their actual speed, it is the sole purpose of either being casual or just for entertainment.
 
So? That doesn't even matter if they are depicted slower than before.

Do we ever ignore Mario’s FTL feats because it only happened in a few games? No. Do we ever ignore Mega Man’s FTL feats because it only happened in a few games? Also no. Do we ever ignore Looney Toons’ FTL feats (for top tiers) because it only happened in a minority of episodes while most of them were depicted slower? No.

See what I mean? Its simply just Cinematic Time. Even if characters who have performed FTL feats are slower than others, it just means those people would be FTL as well. And even if they are depicted much slower than their actual speed, it is the sole purpose of either being casual or just for entertainment.
Mario and Bugs may be downgraded or changed to a varies tier anyway (I'm pretty sure there are more FTL feats in Looney Tunes than 3). Megaman doesn't have FTL running speed anyway.

You keep bringing up entertainment and gags as why FTL running speed is consistent, but the FTL running speed can easily be a gag as well
 
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Where have you heard that about Mario and Looney Toons being changed to varied speed?

And where is your proof that it is a gag?

More times than not, regardless of whatever they show does NOT mean you should ignore FTL being solid. Times they were taking days to travel to a location was just them walking. Times they outsped each other depicted them to be faster than them anyway.

With 6 feats for FTL (3 were reactions [2 involved movement of legs] and 3 were actual movement speeds), I dont see why it is not enough to call it out as solid instead of just reaction and combat speed.
 
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We don't ignore the loads of MFTL+ feats that characters from the Kirby of the Stars series have just because Kirby Air Ride measures the speed of the Warp Star using a far lower unit than times the speed of light. It seems like arguments against BFDI characters being FTL are arguments that don't factor in inaccurate cinematic time. Characters of BFDI always moving instantaneously would be weird and unskillful animating.
 
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I just want to say that for reference, we are proposing a tier of “Varies from High 7-C to 5-A, at most High 4-C” due to some inconsistencies and decent consistencies showing up at random times. The speed part is currently being mostly agreed to be FTL+ solid.
 
I just want to say that for reference, we are proposing a tier of “Varies from High 7-C to 5-A, at most High 4-C” due to some inconsistencies and decent consistencies showing up at random times. The speed part is currently being mostly agreed to be FTL+ solid.
Why would it be High 4-C???/
4-C is better due to the upper limit of the durability seems to be 4-C with Needle.
 
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Because we have a calculation for it right here, at this level.

And even then, I already said that nothing implied Needle was ever KO’d when she crashed into her cake. All she did was keep going until she crashed back onto Earth a week later, and she is perfectly fine.
 
Because we have a calculation for it right here, at this level.

And even then, I already said that nothing implied Needle was ever KO’d when she crashed into her cake. All she did was keep going until she crashed back onto Earth a week later, and she is perfectly fine.
Not really, we don't really know what happened to her anyway, she could have been KO'd a few days and recovered by the time she got back to her cake.
 
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And yet she was not injured when she came back, at all.

The fact she was also conscious before being hit into the cake and surviving it fine shows she was indeed not KO’d, but just continued flying. The many Large Planetary feats also support this by the fact she can survive with no injury. And nothing ever really stated she was KO’d.

But regardless, its either Varies or bust FRA, anyway.
 
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And yet she was not injured when she came back, at all.

The fact she was also conscious before being hit into the cake and surviving it fine shows she was indeed not KO’d, but just continued flying. The many Large Planetary feats also support this by the fact she can survive with no injury. And nothing ever really stated she was KO’d.

But regardless, its either Varies or bust FRA, anyway.
1. I mean, yeah, for all we know is that she recovered though.
2. It really doesn't, all we know is she crashed into the sun and she survived it, but we don't know if she got knocked out. Also, considering a fair few 5-A attacks were capable of reducing their health by a chunk, kind of makes MORE sense a feat thousands of times higher would cause at least comparable damage. And nothing says was perfectly fine throughout the full week either.
 
1. I mean, yeah, for all we know is that she recovered though.
I have wondered something ever since we downgraded the durability feat a while back. How would she of recovered while being launched in outer space? She was completely fine when she was getting launched to her star, she crashed into her star, a few weeks later she was still flying and wasn't in any damage when she got back to Earth. Are we assuming contestants have regeneration? If Needle wasn't durable enough to survive a star, no matter if she got knocked out or not, she would've been burnt into smithereens. Resisting lava is nothing compared to resisting a star. This means, at the very least, her stellar rank gets "at most" before it. Contestants having other feats of being completely unfazed by celestial mayhem suggests that Needle also didn't get damaged by the star if she was perfectly fine in every scene she was in while flying in outer space, so it is a solid feat. The tier of the contestants varies, and the feat of Needle getting launched to the sun is usable.
 
I have wondered something ever since we downgraded the durability feat a while back. How would she of recovered while being launched in outer space? She was completely fine when she was getting launched to her star, she crashed into her star, a few weeks later she was still flying and wasn't in any damage when she got back to Earth. Are we assuming contestants have regeneration? If Needle wasn't durable enough to survive a star, no matter if she got knocked out or not, she would've been burnt into smithereens. Resisting lava is nothing compared to resisting a star. This means, at the very least, her stellar rank gets "at most" before it. Contestants having other feats of being completely unfazed by celestial mayhem suggests that Needle also didn't get damaged by the star if she was perfectly fine in every scene she was in while flying in outer space, so it is a solid feat. The tier of the contestants varies, and the feat of Needle getting launched to the sun is usable.
Of course, that's why I said an at most for 4-C is plausible
 
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That celestial mayhem James was talking about was including said BFB 20 feat with the sun.

The fact there is a feat higher than Needle’s feat (assuming said feat is indeed valid) suggests consistency anyways, especially since this was done with multiple people. Im up for it being “...at most High 4-C
 
I got a slightly improve proposal (It's the same as Psychomaster's tiers, just different wording)

"Varies from High 7-C (Insert justification) to 5-A (Endured hits from Four). At most 4-C (Should be comparable to Needle who crashed into her cake, but it was unknown of her full condition afterward)
 
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If it is already a Varies tier, why would you consider it just 4-C when a recent feat showed a High 4-C feat that is consistent with the previous? Also, Needle was fine from the crash, given the nature of the series that we never see anyone be KO’d before (excluding death) when it came to higher feats.

Even if it was the case, she survived anyways, making this a valid supporting feat.
 
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Antvasima

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Can somebody write a summary of what has been decided so far here, and give some suggestion for staff members that I should notify?
 
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We have currently agreed with everything else, and most of us are currently proposing “Varies from High 7-C to 5-A, at most High 4-C”. However, Blue believes the cap is 4-C due to a vagueness of a condition with a feat, that being Needle crashing into her cake and not being seen for a week. However, she was perfectly fine when she landed back on Earth, and the nature of the series hasnt really shown anyone being KO’d (not counting death) to higher attacks, and given she survived perfectly fine, it has been considered valid and supporting the High 4-C feat.

The verse is already inconsistent, but there are some consistent moments in some areas. So the Varies cap being High 4-C would make sense.
 
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