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Base Aizen and Yamamoto downgrade or Byakuya and Renji Upgrade. Possible can't fear your own world anti canon.

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Aizen and Yamamoto aren't that strong​


So these two are treated as another realm in power in comparison to most shinigami. But when you look at actual feats on screen you'll notice their power is exaggerated.

As of right now base Aizen is treated as comparable to shikai Yama. Both Aizen and Yama are treated as far superior to Royal guard training Renji and Byakuya.

Why is this inaccurate? Because of Bazz B. Yamamoto is extremely enraged, he just got done doing this, to somebody.

Bazz B offset an enraged Shikai Yama flames. The counter was always "Bazz B has burns on his body, he barely survived." First of all, this logic implies, that Bazz B's flames were so inferior that all it could do was keep him alive.

According to Bazz B they were all hit directly. Nothing missed. This means, the only even reason Bazz b was "burned." Was because he was blitzed by the initial nuke. You can clearly see there is no fire in his hands, which is how burner finger is generated. This means, when he was engulfed by Yama, he did not have enough time to react with burner finger. So this means all of them took the initial point blank nuke, which seems far more potent than the attack that took out Driscoll. Remember he's enraged. I don't care what anyone says there's no hula hoop for this. You have an enraged character, nuke a character at point blank, and have that same guy offset his flames. That's just blatant scaling. If Yama was casual I would be fine with disregarding this but he wasn't.

My point is, "he doesn't scale because he was heavily burned" narrative doesn't work. Because he was only burned, because he got hit by the attack at point blank before he could even use his flames to counter. Doubt this? It's a good thing I literally posted the clip above. The opposing narrative is, his flames were inferior to Shikai Yama, and they were only just strong enough to prevent him from dying. Which doesn't work, because as I said Bazz B took the nuke. This is entirely different from them using their powers at the same time and that barely being strong enough to keep Bazz B alive. He only took dmg because he was hit by the nuke before he even did anything. If you're argument is, he immediately used his flames to counter you're gunna have to prove that as Bazz B does not appear to be using any fire when he jumped at Yama. And according to Bazz B himself they were all hit directly. Further proof he only even took dmg because the attack blitzed him. Meaning if both attacks were used simultaneously Bazz B wouldn't take any dmg at all. Again the opposing argument implies fire against fire was barely enough to keep Bazz B alive. My argument is, he only took dmg because he didn't get a chance to use any of his burner fingers (or even any since none of them make sense in this scenario by how their designed.) He offset the flames of an angry head captain. That should be enough. But ppl are sadly trying to jump through hula hoops to save their favorite characters.

Off screen Renji and Bazz B are fighting each other. Vollstanding Bazz b vs Bankai Renji. Since Byakuya is still superior to Renji and Rukia post Royal guard training this puts Byakuya above shikai Yama and base Aizen. This means Bazz b about Royd level if he's = shikai Yama. What about statements that say otherwise? Well nothing. Because can't fear your own world is not even written by Kubo. And secondly, if on screen feats say otherwise They don't really matter. Such is the case here. So I'm here wondering why did Kubo retcon Byakuya only to realize the material that "retcons" him isn't even written by him. The bleach wiki doesn't even consider it canon. We just make anything canon just for the sake of upgrades lmao. I know that'll get disregarded but u can make it a can't fear your own world anti canon thread too. Contradicts real scaling and not written by Kubo. Not canon. And no, input by Kubo doesn't make it canon either. Neither does a timeline. I can write an accurate timeline and it still won't be canon. Cfyow is fanfiction. Plus we know can't fear your own world doesn't happen after tybw because hell does. The idea of separate canon is just dumb af. Contradicts known scaling, written by different person, doesn't happen after tybw because hell arc does. It's a fanfiction. I can write one where rangiku gets a bankai. Have an accurate timeline and events in story and I guarantee it won't be considered canon. Kubo input doesn't matter. He didn't use can't fear your own world he used hell arc. Therefore latter is canon. Separate canon is dumb AF lmao
 
I’ll comment on this later
See this is already biased. You're trying to come up with a reason for it to be wrong instead of arguing from neutrality. So this means no matter how accurate it is, you would post this comment regardless bc u want it to be wrong not curious if it's wrong
 
So, the big crux of Raven's argument that needs to be addressed is the notion of whether Bazz B scales to Shikai Yamamoto or not.

This thread got accepted that the anime adaptation of the TYBW would become canon over the manga adaptation. One of the consequences of that thread is that stuff the anime cuts out is no longer usable for scaling the profiles on wiki. This is important because Bazz B's statement that the Sternritter survived thanks to his Schrift is absent from the anime. Meaning we cannot claim that Bazz B off set Yama's Shikai fire with his own flames. I disagree with Bazz B scaling to Yama even when it was just the manga, but I don't need to address this point since we explicitly accept on wiki that that Bazz B statement isn't valid for scaling since it was omitted from the anime.

The next part of the argument is that Bazz B's durability scales for getting KO'd by Yamamoto, and that he only took damage because he got "blitzed"/"didn't have time to react". First and foremost, Bazz B was jumping Yamamoto with other Sternritters, there is no reason that they would be off guard or anything of the sorts, the notion he took damage by getting blitzed doesn't apply here, since he entered the scenario on guard. Second, Bazz B and co surviving the flames isn't basis of scaling either, all we can say based on that is 1) Yamamoto is stronger since he KO'd them with a single attack and 2) Bazz B is more durable than Driscoll cuz he wasn't vaporized by the fire. Neither of those means Bazz B's durability scales to the same value as Yamamoto's Shikai.

Furthermore, it is inconsistent for Bazz B to be anywhere near Shikai Yamamoto's power. We get confirmation that Royd Lloyd has 70-80% of base Yhwach's power, and that Royd was capable of fighting on par with Shikai Yamamoto. A consequence of saying Bazz B is Shikai Yamamoto level would be that Vollstandig Bazz B would end up being stronger than base Yhwach. Given we would have the following chain: base Yhwach with Blut (5x) > base Yhwach > 75% base Yhwach ~ Shikai Yama ~ Bazz B < Bazz B with Blut (5x) < Vollstandig Bazz B < Vollstandig Bazz B with Blut (5x). Bazz B would be reaching 25x stronger than Shikai Yamamoto via Raven's scaling (remember she claims Bazz B didn't have the time to react to and defend against Yama's flames), meanwhile peak base Yhwach would cap out less than 7x stronger than Shikai Yama. It's just blatantly clear to see that Raven's argument is a bunch of hasty generalizations that don't stand up to even a modicum of scrutiny.

Next, Raven makes a claim about CFYOW not being "canon" or having a low canonicity, if she wants to make a thread to try and get CFYOW accepted as non-canon, be my guest. However, we currently accept it as part of the primary canon so no amount of dismissal of it means anything here.

See this is already biased. You're trying to come up with a reason for it to be wrong instead of arguing from neutrality. So this means no matter how accurate it is, you would post this comment regardless bc u want it to be wrong not curious if it's wrong
Um no part of "I'll comment later" indicates anything about my stance on whether I believe you're right or wrong. But yes, we already knew from the talks in Bleach general that I don't think Post RG Byakuya and Renji are base Aizen level, it has nothing to do with bias, quit pointing fingers with false accusations. And:
Stay on topic
 
So, the big crux of Raven's argument that needs to be addressed is the notion of whether Bazz B scales to Shikai Yamamoto or not.

This thread got accepted that the anime adaptation of the TYBW would become canon over the manga adaptation. One of the consequences of that thread is that stuff the anime cuts out is no longer usable for scaling the profiles on wiki. This is important because Bazz B's statement that the Sternritter survived thanks to his Schrift is absent from the anime.
It was you who said we use the manga for additional info even tho anime primary canon. Now you're not? Ha. Anyway I'll respond to rest when I'm done
 
So, the big crux of Raven's argument that needs to be addressed is the notion of whether Bazz B scales to Shikai Yamamoto or not.

This thread got accepted that the anime adaptation of the TYBW would become canon over the manga adaptation. One of the consequences of that thread is that stuff the anime cuts out is no longer usable for scaling the profiles on wiki. This is important because Bazz B's statement that the Sternritter survived thanks to his Schrift is absent from the anime. Meaning we cannot claim that Bazz B off set Yama's Shikai fire with his own flames.
Like you said manga stuff adds additional info if necessary.
I disagree with Bazz B scaling to Yama even when it was just the manga, but I don't need to address this point since we explicitly accept on wiki that that Bazz B statement isn't valid for scaling since it was omitted from the anime.
See above
The next part of the argument is that Bazz B's durability scales for getting KO'd by Yamamoto, and that he only took damage because he got "blitzed"/"didn't have time to react". First and foremost, Bazz B was jumping Yamamoto with other Sternritters, there is no reason that they would be off guard or anything of the sorts,
You know just because you're attacking somebody doesn't mean you can't get blitzed right
the notion he took damage by getting blitzed doesn't apply here, since he entered the scenario on guard.

Second, Bazz B and co surviving the flames isn't basis of scaling either, all we can say based on that is 1) Yamamoto is stronger since he KO'd them with a single attack and 2) Bazz B is more durable than Driscoll cuz he wasn't vaporized by the fire. Neither of those means Bazz B's durability scales to the same value as Yamamoto's Shikai.
Again he used flames after getting nuked initially. Like I said this would mean if he used them at same time as Yama he probably wouldn't even get damaged at all.
Furthermore, it is inconsistent for Bazz B to be anywhere near Shikai Yamamoto's power. We get confirmation that Royd Lloyd has 70-80% of base Yhwach's power, and that Royd was capable of fighting on par with Shikai Yamamoto. A consequence of saying Bazz B is Shikai Yamamoto level would be that Vollstandig Bazz B would end up being stronger than base Yhwach. Given we would have the following chain: base Yhwach with Blut (5x) > base Yhwach > 75% base Yhwach ~ Shikai Yama ~ Bazz B < Bazz B with Blut (5x) < Vollstandig Bazz B < Vollstandig Bazz B with Blut (5x). Bazz B would be reaching 25x stronger than Shikai Yamamoto via Raven's scaling (remember she claims Bazz B didn't have the time to react to and defend against Yama's flames), meanwhile peak base Yhwach would cap out less than 7x stronger than Shikai Yama. It's just blatantly clear to see that Raven's argument is a bunch of hasty generalizations that don't stand up to even a modicum of scrutiny.
It also makes no sense for Quilge to be comparable to Yhwach by absorbing Ayon. Mind you Halibel was the queen of Hueco mundo. If the Arrancar girls casually had someone significantly stronger than Halibel it would make no sense for her to be queen. As to be the sole factor in Quilge's power up, would have to be significantly stronger than Halibel.

Anyway, Where was Royd's vollstanding? He should have one too funny how you ignore that possibility here to try to make Bazz b seem nonsensical
Next, Raven makes a claim about CFYOW not being "canon" or having a low canonicity, if she wants to make a thread to try and get CFYOW accepted as non-canon, be my guest. However, we currently accept it as part of the primary canon so no amount of dismissal of it means anything here
Read title of thread and my last point
 
Like you said manga stuff adds additional info if necessary.

See above
That's the thing, we aren't in need of said additional information. The entirety of what happened is kept the same, except that statement is explicitly removed. This isn't a scenario of vagueness needing extrapolation.

You know just because you're attacking somebody doesn't mean you can't get blitzed right
Not my claim.

Again he used flames after getting nuked initially. Like I said this would mean if he used them at same time as Yama he probably wouldn't even get damaged at all.
We have no proof he even used his flames. That comment is removed from the primary canon. And your second sentence is just doesn't follow logically at all. Character A is harmed by Character B, Character B amps his defense, this does not entail that Character B can now face tank Character A's attacks. Again, another hasty generalization (a conclusion drawn upon by inconclusive evidence).

It also makes no sense for Quilge to be comparable to Yhwach by absorbing Ayon. Mind you Halibel was the queen of Hueco mundo. If the Arrancar girls casually had someone significantly stronger than Halibel it would make no sense for her to be queen. As to be the sole factor in Quilge's power up, would have to be significantly stronger than Halibel.
Why does Blut enhanced Ayon absorbed Quilge being in the same scaling tier as Yhwach not make sense? Why does Ayon being stronger than Halibel mean that Halibel wouldn't be Queen? Ayon isn't the sole factor in Quilge's power up, his Blut multiplier plays a far larger role.

Anyway, Where was Royd's vollstanding? He should have one too funny how you ignore that possibility here to try to make Bazz b seem nonsensical
Base Yhwach doesn't have a Vollstandig, that's why Royd Yhwach doesn't have one.

Read title of thread and my last point
You linked the Bleach wiki and didn't actually address why we accept CFYOW as canon. I'm not wasting my time with your last point. Kubo explicitly states in an interview that he worked with Narita in coming up with the CFYOW story and he praises Narita for understanding his series so well.
 
That's the thing, we aren't in need of said additional information. The entirety of what happened is kept the same, except that statement is explicitly removed. This isn't a scenario of vagueness needing extrapolation.
Uhh according to who? You can't determine this lol.
Not my claim.
Essentially is.
We have no proof he even used his flames. That comment is removed from the primary canon.
Which is why we have manga to know what happened. Kubo added alot new scenes. Some stuff won't make cut. Which is why we have a Manga to follow up on.
And your second sentence is just doesn't follow logically at all. Character A is harmed by Character B, Character B amps his defense, this does not entail that Character B can now face tank Character A's attacks. Again, another hasty generalization (a conclusion drawn upon by inconclusive evidence).


Why does Blut enhanced Ayon absorbed Quilge being in the same scaling tier as Yhwach not make sense?
Because Bazz b being close to him doesn't make sense, because Jugram isn't scaled close to Yhwach despite being confident he could stomp Ichigo after experiencing his hostile reiatsu in two situations. Base Yhwach isn't some god in AP. He's op bc he can use auswahlen and the Almighty.
Why does Ayon being stronger than Halibel mean that Halibel wouldn't be Queen?
Because it doesn't follow logic that the arm of her subordinates is strong enough to overthrow her nor attempted it.
Ayon isn't the sole factor in Quilge's power up, his Blut multiplier plays a far larger role.
No it doesn't he was getting stomped with blut activated against Ayon. Even the profile says it's all Ayon.
Base Yhwach doesn't have a Vollstandig, that's why Royd Yhwach doesn't have one.
That version of the twins doesn't copy powers just memories and appearance.
You linked the Bleach wiki and didn't actually address why we accept CFYOW as canon. I'm not wasting my time with your last point. Kubo explicitly states in an interview that he worked with Narita in coming up with the CFYOW story and
And? Kubo being involved doesn't mean canon.
So..? Don't you understand the series well? Weird point
 
I want to let it be known that raven promised me she'd respond to scaling chain in this thread and never did.

Aizen > Tsuna = Byakuya
 
Because Bazz b being close to him doesn't make sense, because Jugram isn't scaled close to Yhwach despite being confident he could stomp Ichigo after experiencing his hostile reiatsu in two situations. Base Yhwach isn't some god in AP. He's op bc he can use auswahlen and the Almighty.
Yhwach is stronger than Gremmy who was the strongest Quincy pre-Auswahlen. Meaning Yhwach is explicitly stronger than Bazz B.

Because it doesn't follow logic that the arm of her subordinates is strong enough to overthrow her nor attempted it.
Why? Why doesn't it logically follow for Ayon to be stronger? Ayon isn't just a pile of arms, he's summoned when they sacrifice their arms, but he's an entire separate entity.

No it doesn't he was getting stomped with blut activated against Ayon. Even the profile says it's all Ayon.
Yes and the profile also states that Ayon absorbed Quilge when amplified by Blut is 5x stronger than regular Ayon absorbed Quilge.

That version of the twins doesn't copy powers just memories and appearance.
Nope, Kubo on Klub Outside explicitly stated that Royd copied 70-80% of Yhwach's power. Kubo himself disagrees with you.

And? Kubo being involved doesn't mean canon.
So..? Don't you understand the series well? Weird point
Kubo okaying a continuation of the Bleach story following the TYBW does make it canon.

Byakuya is above both on them because of Bazz b. Simple
Actually, Tsunayashiro and Byakuya have the same exact strength of spiritual pressure, which is far below Yamamoto's.
 
Why are we scaling Yhwach to shikai Yama anyway when he's comparable to bankai Yama which is how he stole his bankai to begin with?
Why? Why doesn't it logically follow for Ayon to be stronger? Ayon isn't just a pile of arms, he's summoned when they sacrifice their arms, but he's an entire separate entity.
Still. That concept always existed. There's no reason for it to randomly be superior to Halibel now unless to suit some scaling narrative.
Yes and the profile also states that Ayon absorbed Quilge when amplified by Blut is 5x stronger than regular Ayon absorbed Quilge.


Nope, Kubo on Klub Outside explicitly stated that Royd copied 70-80% of Yhwach's power. Kubo himself disagrees with you.
I didn't mean ap I meant abilities
Kubo okaying a continuation of the Bleach story following the TYBW does make it canon.
No it doesn't
Read title of thread
 
Why are we scaling Yhwach to shikai Yama anyway when he's comparable to bankai Yama which is how he stole his bankai to begin with?
He isn't Bankai Yama level in base, he needs Blut to get past the Bankai Yama level. Read the profiles.

Still. That concept always existed. There's no reason for it to randomly be superior to Halibel now unless to suit some scaling narrative.
You haven't provided any evidence for why Halibel > Ayon, outside of you think it's weird.

I didn't mean ap I meant abilities
I'm talking about AP.

No it doesn't
It does.

Read title of thread
Not a counter argument, considering I refuted the notion CFYOW isn't canon, I will utilize it in argumentation, as it is canon.
 
He isn't Bankai Yama level in base, he needs Blut to get past the Bankai Yama level. Read the profiles.
So what you're telling me is... Bazz b doesn't scale above him which is what you were saying I was saying. Wanna go edit that out? Because this makes Bazz b inferior to Yhwach this not a contradiction.
You haven't provided any evidence for why Halibel > Ayon, outside of you think it's weird.
The narrative wouldn't support it. Didn't before doesn't now.
I'm talking about AP.
Because you brought up Yhwach not having vollstanding as a reason why Royd doesn't.
It does.


Not a counter argument, considering I refuted the notion CFYOW isn't canon, I will utilize it in argumentation, as it is canon.
No you're explanations why it's canon were complete bs
 
So what you're telling me is... Bazz b doesn't scale above him which is what you were saying I was saying. Wanna go edit that out? Because this makes Bazz b inferior to Yhwach lmao.
Yes I agree Bazz B is inferior to Yhwach. In fact Vollstandig Blut enhanced Bazz B, who is 25x stronger than base Bazz B is weaker than base Yhwach.

The narrative wouldn't support it. Didn't before doesn't now.
Why? Where is it stated previously that Halibel is stronger than Ayon? Ayon's only FKT feats are beating up a bunch of Lieutenants but being weaker than Yamamoto.

Because you brought up Yhwach not having vollstanding as a reason why Royd doesn't.
He turned into Yhwach, if Yhwach has no Vollstandig neither would Royd. Also, Royd uses Yhwach's abilities, so yes he does have Yhwach's abilities.

No you're explanations why it's not canon were complete bs
Both staff think otherwise, I'm not going to go in a "nuh uh I'm right you're wrong" circle chase with you.
 
Yes I agree Bazz B is inferior to Yhwach. In fact Vollstandig Blut enhanced Bazz B, who is 25x stronger than base Bazz B is weaker than base Yhwach.
You're point was, vollstanding Bazz b would be superior to Yhwach per my scaling. But Yhwach is > Bankai Yama with blut so you're point was irrelevant. So it makes vollstanding Bazz b with blut superior to base Yhwach no blut? That's not even surprising since Blut is part of your arsenal.
Why? Where is it stated previously that Halibel is stronger than Ayon? Ayon's only FKT feats are beating up a bunch of Lieutenants but being weaker than Yamamoto.
That Halibel didn't care about it's power and was confident in avenging them.
He turned into Yhwach, if Yhwach has no Vollstandig neither would Royd. Also, Royd uses Yhwach's abilities, so yes he does have Yhwach's abilities.
I'm saying Royd doesn't copy abilities only the one Kenpachi fought. All this one does is copy memories.
Both staff think otherwise, I'm not going to go in a "nuh uh I'm right you're wrong" circle chase with you.
They never said they did. In fact they didn't say what parts they were referring to.
 
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