BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[YukaSama4]

You are just choosing whats correct and whats wrong based on your belief that Ichigo can never be at that level

 

[Creed100]

You have no evidence for that, you are just saying that Ichigo can't be this strong because I think he is on par with Zaraki, you didn't provide proof for that
I provided proof that Ichigo is far above Zaraki using his fight against Yhwach, you said you don't think Yhwach has uni dura, why do u think that? because it will put Ichigo as uni and I don't believe that.

I agree with you.. sorry if i was wrong in something


Just my opinion as shown in the war.


I for example don't see ichigo slashing gerard in the last shape (after being uploaded by zaraki's power) as easily as he slashed yhwach


But you have a better basis for your argument, I don't say you're wrong

 

[Tyri456]

Not knowing how to evaluate or rate something is really a thing we should avoid in the first place, things like “but I feel he is that strong he must be that strong” or “I feel he has less durability he is not same as ap“

when we can’t really prove that is true especially knowing how bleach work then you can’t simply assume those thing, they can be discussed in a bleach general thread like now, but you can’t really put those justification in the profile, feeling are not a justification. We need concrete proof .

 

[Creed100]

Gremmy whole stuff is hax based and nothing else. His physical stats don't matter as they're also based on his ability ,wich vary greatly depending on what he imagine .

Why do you have a problem with Attack= defense ?

But gremmy needs reishi/reatsu too

I don't consider this for any work... except for PS or feats

 

[Tyri456]

Gremmy is just a brain that can fly, his body just is as strong as he wants and it is created by him, you can’t compare gremmy to other people

also, how can it makes sense to you that Gerard has better durability than Yhwach gerard has Inferior durability than base Yhwach let alone an Yhwach that amped himself only kubo knows how many times

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I spoke more for the work treating zaraki and ichigo as having a lot of reatsu, and zaraki always looking for ichigo to fight.

I cited war potential just because both are also

But I could be pretty wrong too

not a good argument to base strength on the amount of reiatsu considering jushiro is stated to have more reiatsu than any of the captains

 

[CalmHill]

that statement is not about SK created hell, is saying that the pit (hell) was simply seal up, not that the soul king created it

No that is not what it is saying, just from that statement the sk is putting something over hell to encompass and contain it. In other translations it directly says a world will serve as its lid. So either hell is already a multiverse and the sk puts a multiversal sized world on top to cover it. Hell is just a pit and he puts a multiverse on top to cover it.I lean to the former because it says the original realm was split into 3 not 4.

 

[YukaSama4]

not a good argument to base strength on the amount of reiatsu considering jushiro is stated to have more reiatsu than any of the captains

You cant use Jushiro because Jushiro's most power was used to restrict his illness, he couldnt use his full reiatsu as a fighter like others

 

[Naeblis495]

But gremmy needs reishi/reatsu too

I don't consider this for any work... except for PS or feats

Yes, but that's only true for his true body : his brain. All of the rest is just a product of his imagination and that vary greatly depending of what he imagine himself to be.

Well, we have clear explanation and feats in Bleach that attack potency is equal to durability. In fact, Arrancar and Quincy can even have better durability than their attack potency thank to their Hierro/Blue Vene.

 

[Creed100]

Gremmy is just a brain that can fly, his body just is as strong as he wants and it is created by him, you can’t compare gremmy to other people

also, how can it makes sense to you that Gerard has better durability than Yhwach gerard has Inferior durability than base Yhwach let alone an Yhwach that amped himself only kubo knows how many times

1-) even being a brain, it needs a power source... Just as there are also limits

2-) I didn't say Gerard Base... I'm talking about a Gerard who used the "MIRACLE", and it was much stronger than the joining of the power of several characters that hurt him..


Let's not forget that his power is this... just as he took it from zaraki's bankai and then came back stronger than zaraki's bankai attack


Soon I referred to Gerard uploaded several times... Which, in my opinion, had a higher resistance, yes

 

[Creed100]

Yes, but that's only true for his true body : his brain. All of the rest is just a product of his imagination and that vary greatly depending of what he imagine himself to be.

Well, we have clear explanation and feats in Bleach that attack potency is equal to durability. In fact, Arrancar and Quincy can even have better durability than their attack potency thank to their Hierro/Blue Vene.

It's a more complex topic..

1-) The brain also needs energy to create something. That is, reishi/reatsu


2-) Soi Fong for example... would never resist his bankai, even with reatsu to create this damage...

Barragan needed "RESPIRA" to defend against bankai de soi Fong

 

[Naeblis495]

It's a more complex topic..

1-) The brain also needs energy to create something. That is, reishi/reatsu


2-) Soi Fong for example... would never resist his bankai, even with reatsu to create this damage...

Barragan needed "RESPIRA" to defend against bankai de soi Fong

we have no idea how Soi-fon would fare against her own bankai so i don't see your point.

Barragan still survived a point blank shot of soi-fon's bankai and was only injured . He could still fight no problem.

Also , gremmy's brain needing reishi isn't the problem , as zaraki never injured his brain, only the bodies the brain created by hax.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Reiatsu

Reishi is the spirit matter

 

[CalmHill]

I’m unsure what is the contention is with gremmy, any ability he will display is under his power. A brain can’t box, Which means his creation of a realm containing multiple solar systems/star clusters/galaxy. Is inferior to kenpachi, it specifically being said, cfyow III page 326
” he had even materialized a gigantic meteorite and outer
space itself in the Seireitei. In the end, he had imagined a power
that would outstrip Kenpachi Zaraki, which had ended up bring
ing about his own downfall when he was unable to imagine a
body that could bear that power” so while before he was capable of baring multi solar-galaxy lvls of power now he is incapable of withstanding this tier. Meaning kenpachi > gremmy ?

It’s even more so specified spiritual energy, cfyow III page 326 “Liltotto had seen the moment that Gremmy's body had
collapsed and had even confirmed that his spiritual pressure
had entirely ceased.” This should just directly be anyone relative to shikai eye patchless kenpachi > multiple star/solar systems/star clusters/galaxy?

Is it that it’s not his own body? The body is also created ? But his body feels the fatigue of his attacks and can be ruptured. And when he dies that firstly dissipates, sooooooooooooo what’s the problem…?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Oh btw we accept that Gremmy's "galaxy room" would scale to him, there's no contentions there, it was just ruled an outlier in comparison to the other feats. So it's not that Gremmy's tier 3 feat is being called into question, it was more so the consistency of characters being that level which was called into question.

 

[CalmHill]

Appreciate it arc , then on a completely unrelated note the 2nd bleach ova has ichigo defeat Baishin who was going to destroy the world. So where’s multi cont to planetary ichigo ?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Blocks Sokyoku therefore its consistent gg.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Oh btw we accept that Gremmy's "galaxy room" would scale to him, there's no contentions there, it was just ruled an outlier in comparison to the other feats. So it's not that Gremmy's tier 3 feat is being called into question, it was more so the consistency of characters being that level which was called into question.

We don't need to scale character to Gremmy but his creation feat should be updated right. Beside he is referred Strongest stern there and he was equal to Yhwach. I think Yhwach base should scale to Gremmy. I don't see any anti feats. How could characters jump from multi continental to uni+ . Yhwach base being Multi continental is really low ball.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I’m unsure what is the contention is with gremmy, any ability he will display is under his power. A brain can’t box, Which means his creation of a realm containing multiple solar systems/star clusters/galaxy. Is inferior to kenpachi, it specifically being said, cfyow III page 326
” he had even materialized a gigantic meteorite and outer
space itself in the Seireitei. In the end, he had imagined a power
that would outstrip Kenpachi Zaraki, which had ended up bring
ing about his own downfall when he was unable to imagine a
body that could bear that power” so while before he was capable of baring multi solar-galaxy lvls of power now he is incapable of withstanding this tier. Meaning kenpachi > gremmy ?

It’s even more so specified spiritual energy, cfyow III page 326 “Liltotto had seen the moment that Gremmy's body had
collapsed and had even confirmed that his spiritual pressure
had entirely ceased.” This should just directly be anyone relative to shikai eye patchless kenpachi > multiple star/solar systems/star clusters/galaxy?

Is it that it’s not his own body? The body is also created ? But his body feels the fatigue of his attacks and can be ruptured. And when he dies that firstly dissipates, sooooooooooooo what’s the problem…?

Whatever even if we don't scale Kenpachi to Gremmy. Atleast we should scale Yhwach to Gremmy. Doesn't that make sense it's even stated in LN.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

That would be consistent with 3B Yhwach

 

[Tyri456]

1-) even being a brain, it needs a power source... Just as there are also limits

2-) I didn't say Gerard Base... I'm talking about a Gerard who used the "MIRACLE", and it was much stronger than the joining of the power of several characters that hurt him..


Let's not forget that his power is this... just as he took it from zaraki's bankai and then came back stronger than zaraki's bankai attack


Soon I referred to Gerard uploaded several times... Which, in my opinion, had a higher resistance, yes

Please stop, I tried to explain but you are not even formulating arguments right now, just pure bias, even completely ignoring that the Yhwach Aizen fought absorbed the strongest Gerard Inside himself, honestly your opinion is just wrong at this point I think you are just trolling, which I kindly suggest you to stop
Yhwach is superior to Gerard in every single aspects, even by the narrative that place Yhwach as the ultimate villain ever for Bleach, and Gerard just one of his minions.

 

[AppleLord]

Hell is directly connected to the world of the living which would put it in the Garganta. Its gates are in the world of the living, in hueco Mundo the gates don't appear but Sayzel is in hell. when the gates break it flows into the human world. Also, the soul king did create hell, what was said in the novels was that hell originally was a "pit". They desired a world for hell as a part of the plan to extend the flow of souls, CFYOW III page 197 viz, "Another clan's ancestor believed a lid was needed to cover the pit that would later become known as "hell." so I'm not sure why hell would randomly be somewhere else.

Also, I'm not sure why both hell verse and diamond dust rebellion wouldn't be taken as evidence, the part of hell verse I am referencing is Kubo while talking about hell and its design states it to be a multiverse " Hell is a "multiverse" consisting of several layers with different aspects. What kind of battle will Ichigo and his friends fight in this land?" I am unaware of diamond dust rebellion stating hell to have infinite dimensions but I am aware of Mayuri saying the Oken gives control over the infinite dimensions. Which would mean there's infinite dimensions in the Garganta.

Gulp.

Raw source for the bold quote?

 

[Creed100]

we have no idea how Soi-fon would fare against her own bankai so i don't see your point.

Barragan still survived a point blank shot of soi-fon's bankai and was only injured . He could still fight no problem.

Also , gremmy's brain needing reishi isn't the problem , as zaraki never injured his brain, only the bodies the brain created by hax.

barragan > soi fong


soi Fong was surprised that barragan resisted her attack.

calling him immortal or invulnerable


soon she couldn't resist her bankai... Just like yamamoto almost died by a kidou who would cast in aizen, or wouldn't resist for long against his bankai.. Just as it was easily cut by your bankai's blade

Please stop, I tried to explain but you are not even formulating arguments right now, just pure bias, even completely ignoring that the Yhwach Aizen fought absorbed the strongest Gerard Inside himself, honestly your opinion is just wrong at this point I think you are just trolling, which I kindly suggest you to stop
Yhwach is superior to Gerard in every single aspects, even by the narrative that place Yhwach as the ultimate villain ever for Bleach, and Gerard just one of his minions.

I'm not trolling, sorry, but I'm giving my opinion..


I just disagree with one thing. The work shows no signs that resistance will always be the same as attack..


The base yhwach has never been shown to have more resistance than gerad + miracle. At most it would take the same resistance

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We don't need to scale character to Gremmy but his creation feat should be updated right. Beside he is referred Strongest stern there and he was equal to Yhwach. I think Yhwach base should scale to Gremmy. I don't see any anti feats. How could characters jump from multi continental to uni+ . Yhwach base being Multi continental is really low ball.

it was ruled an outlier

 

[Naeblis495]

barragan > soi fong


soi Fong was surprised that barragan resisted her attack.

calling him immortal or invulnerable


soon she couldn't resist her bankai... Just like yamamoto almost died by a kidou who would cast in aizen, or wouldn't resist for long against his bankai.. Just as it was easily cut by your bankai's blade

Soi Fon only hurt barragan with her bankai ,wich isn't a regular attack. She mention herself that normally she can only fire 1 time every 3 days . Clearly this indicate that her bankai drain most of her reiryoku for a single much stronger shot wich doesn't compare to her usual stats and wich most characther can't do.

Soi Fon is clearly wrong on both terms. Barragan isn't immortal, proven by the fact that he died. And he isn't invulnerable either, proven by the fact that he was damaged by her bankai.

Yama didn't almost died from a kido, what are you talking about ? He got hurt by his own prep time attack ,trying to protect the living world and then,while already weakened, used a kido that destroy his arm to try to hurt Aizen.
And yes, his bankai is so powerfull that it hurt him as well but that's is a feat for his bankai only. The fact that he can resist his own power in normal conditions prove that his durability is in the rank as his Attack Potency.
Just like bankai kenpatchi can't handle his full power without his body exploding. Some Bleach characthers have techniques or modes that surpass their own durability , but most of the time ,attack potency is in the same rank as their durability, because their can tank their own power.

 

[Creed100]

Soi Fon only hurt barragan with her bankai ,wich isn't a regular attack. She mention herself that normally she can only fire 1 time every 3 days . Clearly this indicate that her bankai drain most of her reiryoku for a single much stronger shot wich doesn't compare to her usual stats and wich most characther can't do.

Soi Fon is clearly wrong on both terms. Barragan isn't immortal, proven by the fact that he died. And he isn't invulnerable either, proven by the fact that he was damaged by her bankai.

Yama didn't almost died from a kido, what are you talking about ? He got hurt by his own prep time attack ,trying to protect the living world and then,while already weakened, used a kido that destroy his arm to try to hurt Aizen.
And yes, his bankai is so powerfull that it hurt him as well but that's is a feat for his bankai only. The fact that he can resist his own power in normal conditions prove that his durability is in the rank as his Attack Potency.
Just like bankai kenpatchi can't handle his full power without his body exploding. Some Bleach characthers have techniques or modes that surpass their own durability , but most of the time ,attack potency is in the same rank as their durability, because their can tank their own power.

I don't want to be boring and I apologize.. But in my view the work does not support its assertion of attack = resistance.
The resistance in bleach is resumed more by PS, which is what I agree

I didn't say barragan is immortal ... Only that soi Fong was surprised

Yamma doesn't support his bankai, he's probably similar to barragan that supports his power externally...

yama was totally injured with just his shikai on his body.. Bankai >>>>>> Shikai

Ichigo VL vs Ulquiorra 2nd res : Oscurs cero and ichigo cero were tied, and even so ichigo's cero nearly killed Ulquiorra

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

am I not following or is someone claiming normal AP and durability don’t correlate in Bleach?

 

[Creed100]

am I not following or is someone claiming normal AP and durability don’t correlate in Bleach?

Because they claim that yhwach has universal resistance..

The work has already shown several signs of characters taking wounds from blows below their attack potential.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I know what they claim I upgraded the verse. But I urge you reread the Kenpachi Ichigo fight and the Byakuya Ichigo fight as well as Urahara training Ichigo to grasp a solid understanding of how reiatsu ties into stats.

 

[Creed100]

I know what they claim I upgraded the verse. But I urge you reread the Kenpachi Ichigo fight and the Byakuya Ichigo fight as well as Urahara training Ichigo to grasp a solid understanding of how reiatsu ties into stats.

I understand.. But it didn't apply much in practice..

Just like the famous reatsu law that kubo forgot -> said by aizen

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No if you read carefully he didn’t forget, people just need to realize Kubo is subtle with it and doesn’t spoon feed everything to us. Things are made vague enough where you’ll miss stuff like that unless you pay proper and close attention.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I understand.. But it didn't apply much in practice..

Just like the famous reatsu law that kubo forgot -> said by aizen

It does apply though? People need to be strong enough to survive their own stuff. We see this at the start of the series and at the end of the series. He definitely didn’t forget.

 

[Creed100]

No if you read carefully he didn’t forget, people just need to realize Kubo is subtle with it and doesn’t spoon feed everything to us. Things are made vague enough where you’ll miss stuff like that unless you pay proper and close attention.

Before registering on this forum, I always followed your posts ..

I respect you a lot.. I know you have a much greater knowledge of the work than I do.


but honestly I don't really agree with this thought... for the biggest reasons that several characters take a lot of damage for an attack lower than yours.

 

[YukaSama4]

You don't need to agree with him on everything to respect him, I don't respect him but I still agree with him on this joking lol

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Before registering on this forum, I always followed your posts ..

I respect you a lot.. I know you have a much greater knowledge of the work than I do.


but honestly I don't really agree with this thought... for the biggest reasons that several characters take a lot of damage for an attack lower than yours.

The key rectification to that is AP is “relative” to durability. Aka they’re in the same realm of power but they don’t have to be completely equal.

Like maybe my AP is a 99 and by durability is an 88, so an opponent with a 93 AP is still weaker than me but can hurt me. Which is the case with the passive durability Kenpachi describes.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You don't need to agree with him on everything to respect him, I don't respect him but I still agree with him on this joking lol

Mrk, respect this

 

[BleachHollow]

So when is Arc gonna become a Moderator?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Moderating y’all might be a task too daunting for even myself, y’all are breaking my mrk scouter.

 

[Creed100]

The key rectification to that is AP is “relative” to durability. Aka they’re in the same realm of power but they don’t have to be completely equal.

Like maybe my AP is a 99 and by durability is an 88, so an opponent with a 93 AP is still weaker than me but can hurt me. Which is the case with the passive durability Kenpachi describes.

So Zaraki Bankai can't cut ichigo??

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not based on our profiles, BanKen is High 6-A, TS Ichigo is 3-B