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BBS CFYOW translations are the exact same as the actual novel ones, so I think a case could be made.
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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion
- Thread starter Zoro21043
- Start date
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My point is that he said that Royd died before the statement of Gremmy, so I said that Gremmy had a statement from the past
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How does what I said imply SAFWY Kenny > Blood War Kenny?
Uh ...... no, no you can’t. You’d have to ignore the fact that Ichibei pimpslapped the same Yhwach that annihilated Yama to even start arguing this.
That’s fine, Gremmy doesn’t matter at all to the scaling for Grimm, Kisuke and Askin being > Royd. I was referring to the strongest Quincy statements in general when I mentioned Gremmy and the SS. Also doesn’t Gremmy get released between the 1st and 2nd invasions? Royd is dead by that point so people saying Gremmy is the strongest at that point doesn’t mean anything.
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I dont know? Im just asking if that is what u meant, I said that Kenny was stated to be able to cut through Barragan’s hax because of his reiatsu, that Kenny was destroyed by Royd, the schutzstaffel are the strongest stern ritters so Askin > Royd. Grimm is rated here above all of them and still he cant cancel Barragan’s hax? btw even If u dont agree with my scaling, you would still have to disagree with the current ratings, because going off your way Royd should be upgraded to higher than Grimmjow because he defeated Zaraki who was stated to be able to cancel Barragan’s hax, while Grimmjow cant, you will have a problem with the current scaling in both ways
Yama was in shikai xD
He was known since the past that he was the strongest quincy outside of Yhwach
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I said that SAFWY Kenny was stated to be able to cancel Respira, then in early TYBW he was destroyed by Royd who is < Askin who is rated weaker than Grimmjow.
he said :
So I asked if he meant that that Kenny is > early TYBW Kenny
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Liltoto, and that guy the brother of the healer from 4th company
Liltotto statement was for present Gremmy iirc, the other one was like "he was known as the strongest between the quincies" or something like that
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My point with Kenny is that he spends his time doing wild shit that shouldn’t scale to anyone else when the rest never show such feats. Kenny power nulling stuff shouldn’t scale to anyone else.
True true but unlike the Yama Ichibe situation, Royd Gremmy has no direct line of scaling.
Anyone got this scan? Cuz I only recall the Liltotto statement.
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He did that by his reiatsu, and if there is someone with a higher reiatsu he should be able to do the same. Btw he canceled Cien hax easily by his reiatsu without any wild thing iirc.
Reiatsu can null abilities and hax in SRs / Arrancar battles yeah.
I just checked, I found those :
"Though Liltotto was dubious as to whether she could get through to the Soul Reaper, she kept asking questions. The fact was, she had a single, genuine question that was unrelated to her premise of gathering information.
“There’s something I wanna ask you.” It was related to the spiritual pressure that Candice and the others had also noticed intermingling in Hikone.
“Have you heard the name Gremmy Thoumeaux before?”
Gremmy Thoumeaux: that was the name of a boy who, barring Yhwach, was said to be the strongest of the Stern Ritter—someone who could beat anybody. That he was even a boy was something he himself had contrived; in actuality, his true gender and age were unknown. He was a Quincy whose body was a single brain floating in a container and who, through the V Schrift—The Visionary—that Yhwach had bestowed upon him, had created his flesh body by “imagining” it."
- Liltotto.
The second one implies that he was known as the strongest, here it is :
"Silbern, the Vandenreich’s base of operations. As the final battle with the Soul Reapers was quickly progressing, there had been an area with remarkably apparent spiritual pressure. Though it was a cage that had been securely sealed with a barrier that only Yhwach could make, that seal was currently undone and the intended prisoner—Gremmy Thoumeaux—was standing in a corner of the passageway. None approached the boy who had been freed, and as though they believed they would be killed if they simply met eyes with him, the general members did not even enter his field of vision. However, there was a single
figure who had approached Gremmy without hesitation."
_________________________________________________________________
For Seinosuke statement, he didnt say that actually, so apologize for that, he said :
"When Kyoraku scowled, Seinosuke started to delve into the crux of the issue. “Do you know of a Quincy named Gremmy Thoumeaux?”
“Yeah, I looked over the records collected at the Great Archive after the war. Wasn’t that the Quincy that Zaraki battled…” At that point, Kyoraku stopped speaking momentarily. The wrinkles on his brow furrowed all the more deeply, and he asked Seinosuke, “It couldn’t possibly have been that?”
So yeah forget about what I said about Seinosuke.
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What about using Haschwalth? Do u agree that Haschwalth > Royd or no?
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This isn't really true, while it is correct that Cien's abilities didn't work on Kenpachi, it's clearly stated that it's because Kenpachi's internal organs are just extremely durable to where Cien can't damage or break them through the doll, it has nothing to do with Kenpachi's Reiatsu supposedly powernulling the hax.
Anyway, you should stop using arguments from SAFWY until it either gets a complete translation or BBS's translations are allowed.
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what? wasnt it stated that Zaraki was strengthing them using his reiatsu? or protecting them using his reiatsu?
At least this is whats stated in the translation that Ive read :
"Chapter 17 (p216-251) — Dangai, inside the Garganta Zaraki is standing in the Garganta on a foothold of reishi. Although, technically, his foothold is buried under a pile of defeated clones and he’s standing on top of those. The clones look just like Zaraki except for a strange pattern on their faces. Cien is in his released form, tentacles growing out of his body. He’s holding a miniature doll of Zaraki in his hand. He’s trying to squash one of the doll’s organs (which would cause the real Zaraki’s organ to be squashed as well), but it’s as hard as steel. He could probably slice through it with his sword, but then he might as well slice the real Zaraki. Zaraki’s reiatsu is higher than he had anticipated. Cien couldn’t collect enough reishi in the area to create perfect clones and organs. And, although the clones had managed to injure Zaraki, the Shinigami didn’t seem tired in the least. His reiatsu actually seemed to have grown even denser. Cien comments that, based on the data from Zaraki’s fight with Nnoitra, his tricks should’ve worked."
Its implied that its related to the reiatsu. Idk if this is a summery or a translation for the full novel tho, its from SAFWY II translated by tenshiscave.
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Nope. I think Jugo would win in a fight because Balance GG but strength/power wise Royd > Jugo. Makes no sense for Yama to pull up because he sensed Yhwach but somehow miss the guy right next to him that is even stronger.
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That will stand on the assumption that Haschwalth was smh releasing all of his power or sth like that which isnt true, he was casual and just looking at the fight, how would Yama know that he is stronger? He came and started the fight with Royd because he looks like Yhwach so he should be the boss why should he bother thinking about Haschwalth
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As I explained, he came because he could sense fake Yhwach who only has the standard Quincy kit as far as Yama knows seeing as Zero Squad has no intel on the Almighty despite watching the fight from 1000 ago. Yhwach doesn’t matter if there is another dude right next to him with at least the same kit that is stronger. Quincies don’t flex reiatsu around like Shinigami and Arrancars so there is no “releasing his power” or anything of the sort. Yama pulled up and targeted Yhwach and didn’t give a damn about Jugo in any way. If Jugo was actually stronger than Royd, it would have been noted.
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It's related to reiatsu because durability in Bleach is related to reiatsu, you strengthen your durability by strengthening your reiatsu and overcome your opponents durability by strengthening and sharpening your own reiatsu, literally stated in Kenpachi and Ichigo's fight.
Nowhere is it indicated it has anything to do with powernulling the ability with reiatsu, especially since the ability is still active, it's not being nulled, Cien just can't break or destroy Kenpachi's internal organs, also it even states in the extract you posted that Cien's abilities were weakened to begin with.
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Because Royd was in the form of Yhwach in from of him?? Even if there is no releasing his power, that does not mean in any way that quincies are always in their 100% and everyone can sense who is stronger, its never stated to work that way.
no, there is no need for it to be noted, Haschwalth is the judge, he must be able to judge on any quincy, except for Gremmy who was dealt by immediately by Yhwach, he is probably the one who ruled the quincies in the time Yhwach was sleeping his 900 years.
anyways we have moved away from the original point of Zaraki.
ohhh sorry for that, when I said reiatsu can null abilities I meant that it can cancel their effect like what Zaraki has done Vs Cien, and Vs Azashiro, and his statement about Barragan, and how Aizen Vs Soifon was, and several several examples. We agree on this now?
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when is it corrected?
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Except that reiatsu is a thing and Shinigami have sensed how strong Quincies are before?
But there is. We can’t just assume something to be the case when nothing actually supports it. Royd even has comparable or better feats than Jugo when he stomped Kenny. Being a judge/ruler doesn’t mean he has to be stronger. We see Cang Du stop his attack with ease before the Balance kicked in. The Balance fulfils this requirement you have for Jugo enforcing rules and is independent of Jugo’s own AP.
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Thats not my point, Im saying that u are making it seem as if they are always in their full powers, which isnt the case tbh
I dont think that better feats -> he must be stronger, especially when we have a strong evidence to think Haschwalth is stronger, the ones that I have mentioned above, also in CFYOW its stated that Haschwalth was number 2 in the Vandenreich. Whatever I think we have reached a dead end on this and moved away from the original topic.
How was Zaraki cancelling the abilities? by his reiatsu right? why no one should scale to that when its done by reiatsu and we have a statement that reiatsu can do such things?
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Let’s look at what we know
- Starrk, Barry and Halibae are basically equal according to Shunsui and Juushiro.
- Grimmjow scales far above those three post timeskip.
- Grimm would die to Barry according to Halibae.
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Honestly I think this is just a lazy way to deal with this matter.
The problem is that Aizen is the first one who came with this idea and he proved that by a feat, he said that its done by reiatsu. Same thing with Zaraki its always been implied that he does so by his reiatsu, from that it should be obvious that if X could null the ability of Y by his reiatsu, and Z has a higher reiatsu than X, he must be able to do the same. X,Y, and Z =/= quincy, lol.
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um, can u explain what do u mean?
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So how do you reconcile the circular scaling? After all you brought up Barry upscaling to Grimm because of what Harribel said despite him getting powercliffed massively.
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ok so, firstly we do agree that base Aizen is still above Grimmjow right?
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Obviously yeah. Don't think that was ever in contention. Aizen too strong lol.
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I think a big thing people are ignoring is that most characters reiatsu doesn't change much throughout the series.
Let's use Points for power levels DB style. The Max for Bleach is 100 points after which is the Transcendent level. So for example, Shinigami Aizen is the max cap for each race at maybe 99 or 100 reaitsu points.
No one is going from a Reiatsu of 70 to one of 100. At most they are increasing 1 or 2 units of reiatsu to their overall strength.
That's why Byakuya, Tokinada, Shunsui, Yoruichi have comparable reiatsu in CFYOW.
However isn't Shunsui older than everyone here? He's the current CC too. Didn't Byakuya go through RG training and come out far stronger than before?
The reality is that despite all the training, whether it is Byakuya or Yoruichi, their Reiatsu levels haven't changed much.
Maybe Byakuya used to be at 80 reiatsu points but now he would still be in the 80s or early 90s in terms of points.
Even if his combat strength had doubled or tripled from SS arc to TYBW, his actual reiatsu capacity has barely increased.
This is basically the Espada rankings too. Although differences in Reiatsu levels exist, it shouldn't be something exponential.
If Shinigami Aizen is 100, the peak of Shinigami, Zero Espada Yammy is 95, Starkk with Lillinette - 94, Barragan - 93, Harribel - 92, Ulquiorra - 90, then let's say Grimmjow is at 85 or something.
Firstly, although The top 3 Espada are relative in strength we know for a fact that in terms of reaitsu capacity: Starkk > Barragan > Harribel but after all reaitsu isn't all there is to strength that's why they are considered relative to each other.
Obviously this means Grimmjow having comparable strength to current Harribel does NOT mean he has the exact equal reaitsu capacity.
In fact, since we know current Byakuya got leagues stronger without his reaitsu levels changing exponentially, it does not mean that Grimmjow's reaitsu is suddenly > Starkk or even Barragan.
In fact I doubt any 2 characters in Bleach have the exact equal reaitsu capacity down to the smallest decimal point.
Comparable Strength does not mean comparable Reiatsu.
Reiatsu increase is NOT exponential.
This is not Dragon Ball. We know for a fact Shinigami Aizen is still the cap for reiatsu even as for of CFYOW, no matter how many power ups everyone else got with only someone like Ichigo being the outlier.
Let's use Points for power levels DB style. The Max for Bleach is 100 points after which is the Transcendent level. So for example, Shinigami Aizen is the max cap for each race at maybe 99 or 100 reaitsu points.
No one is going from a Reiatsu of 70 to one of 100. At most they are increasing 1 or 2 units of reiatsu to their overall strength.
That's why Byakuya, Tokinada, Shunsui, Yoruichi have comparable reiatsu in CFYOW.
However isn't Shunsui older than everyone here? He's the current CC too. Didn't Byakuya go through RG training and come out far stronger than before?
The reality is that despite all the training, whether it is Byakuya or Yoruichi, their Reiatsu levels haven't changed much.
Maybe Byakuya used to be at 80 reiatsu points but now he would still be in the 80s or early 90s in terms of points.
Even if his combat strength had doubled or tripled from SS arc to TYBW, his actual reiatsu capacity has barely increased.
This is basically the Espada rankings too. Although differences in Reiatsu levels exist, it shouldn't be something exponential.
If Shinigami Aizen is 100, the peak of Shinigami, Zero Espada Yammy is 95, Starkk with Lillinette - 94, Barragan - 93, Harribel - 92, Ulquiorra - 90, then let's say Grimmjow is at 85 or something.
Firstly, although The top 3 Espada are relative in strength we know for a fact that in terms of reaitsu capacity: Starkk > Barragan > Harribel but after all reaitsu isn't all there is to strength that's why they are considered relative to each other.
Obviously this means Grimmjow having comparable strength to current Harribel does NOT mean he has the exact equal reaitsu capacity.
In fact, since we know current Byakuya got leagues stronger without his reaitsu levels changing exponentially, it does not mean that Grimmjow's reaitsu is suddenly > Starkk or even Barragan.
In fact I doubt any 2 characters in Bleach have the exact equal reaitsu capacity down to the smallest decimal point.
Comparable Strength does not mean comparable Reiatsu.
Reiatsu increase is NOT exponential.
This is not Dragon Ball. We know for a fact Shinigami Aizen is still the cap for reiatsu even as for of CFYOW, no matter how many power ups everyone else got with only someone like Ichigo being the outlier.
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....... but Aizen simply has way more than everyone else besides Yama from the get go? The Espada are most definitely not at the peak of what they can achieve in Arrancar Saga and they very blatantly do gain far more reiatsu. Reiatsu = stats. If X have the reiatsu to fight dudes way stronger than Y, X has way more than Y.
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So, can you explain this? I mean how is it a circular scaling
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Current Grimmjow is stronger than Barragan. You want to upscale Barragan to Grimmjow because Harribel thinks he would lose. I attribute Barragan winning to hax but you are advocating for Grimm power nulling Respira with reiatsu if he is way stronger, and since he will lose, Barragan should scale. This means that Barragan > Grimmjow > scaling chain > Barragan. Barragan can’t be stronger than himself so how would you stop this circular scaling from occurring?
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I dont know whats this honestly so I dont know how to solve that lol, I havent participated in the arrancar scaling thread and a minor participation in tbyw/cfyow thread, but either there is something that may be wrong in this scaling chain or just Grimmjow will be downgraded, is Grimmjow’s current rating based on Barragan’s current tier? because u keep putting Barragan there smh
or u can write the whole chain tbh which I know is a bother to do
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I wouldn’t really use the novel as a basis for some of the scaling. Some makes sense but then there’s things like ginjo’s getsuga being as strong as Ichigo’s strongest getsuga and what not so it’s a little unreliable in some areas imo
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The problem is that, iirc someone once brought a scan that says Narita learnt from Kubo or sth like this. So it may mean that the author doesnt agree with our scaling, which is a problem and thats why we discuss the context of the statement, and what does it mean and so, ignoring the whole statement is the last choice after we are 100% sure that it contradicts other canon information
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I think you may be right on scan lol. It’s consistent with some things like Aizen and Yamamoto being superior to the others so that makes sense that Tokinada using those 2 zanpakuto’s exploited weaknesses that weren’t seen before.
But the Barragan thing doesn’t make sense really.. what did the statement say exactly?
Also I didn’t wanna post this in the sternritter thread so I didn’t derail it, but could you imagine if Ichigo was there from the beginning how much it could’ve changed things? He was manhandling base Quilge who should be a special Quincy considering Yhwach felt confident enough he could finish taking over Hueco Mundo and he knew who Uryu was before anyone else knew.
