Awakened Breath Bang downgrade

[TimmyTurnero]

AB (Awakened Breath) Bang is listed as Island level due to cracking Garou’s shell with a punch. This is the feat in question.

But I believe this scene is misinterpreted and I’ll explain why this belief is false and why AB Bang should probably upscale to City level instead.

WSRSF
Water Stream Rock Smash Fist is an attack that is described to deflect and redirect attacks.
Redirecting in the sense that it can take one’s own energy and attack them with it, striking them with strength twice as strong as the redirected energy.
This is first demonstrated against Tank Top Master. Later shown in his fight against Darkshine, where he redirects the power of his punch and uses it to land a powerful kick on Darkshine. This idea is reinforced even more when Garou uses his thumb to redirect Darkshine’s full power, using the energy to attack him beyond what he could do before or even afterwards. Clear evidence supporting the notion that this technique redirects the energy of the deflecting attack. Context is important here. When accounting the mere nature of the technique it makes it less reliable to assert that Bang did this with his own strength, especially when he needs to redirect all of these attacks because they would pulverize every bone in his body if he didn’t. How does Bang even scale to someone who would’ve one shotted him on that level?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

How does Bang even scale to someone who would’ve one shotted him on that level?

it's a good thing you left out the scan that says this

here is the statement, and bomb is clearly worried about the shockwaves rather than the attack itself

more about the shockwaves

as you can see, the shockwaves are clearly more potent than the user's AP, even if it isn't entirely durability negating, this problem kinda solves itself. And besides, the fact that bang's hands don't shatter the moment they crack garou's face should have told you this (as I did tell you earlier before) because water stream rock smashing fist does NOT amp the user's durability
and besides, attacks too strong can't even be deflected, as seen when darkshine tackles half monster garou. This will most likely be rejected

 

[Kachon123]

AB (Awakened Breath) Bang is listed as Island level due to cracking Garou’s shell with a punch. This is the feat in question.

But I believe this scene is misinterpreted and I’ll explain why this belief is false and why AB Bang should probably upscale to City level instead.

WSRSF
Water Stream Rock Smash Fist is an attack that is described to deflect and redirect attacks.
Redirecting in the sense that it can take one’s own energy and attack them with it, striking them with strength twice as strong as the redirected energy.
This is first demonstrated against Tank Top Master. Later shown in his fight against Darkshine, where he redirects the power of his punch and uses it to land a powerful kick on Darkshine. This idea is reinforced even more when Garou uses his thumb to redirect Darkshine’s full power, using the energy to attack him beyond what he could do before or even afterwards. Clear evidence supporting the notion that this technique redirects the energy of the deflecting attack. Context is important here. When accounting the mere nature of the technique it makes it less reliable to assert that Bang did this with his own strength, especially when he needs to redirect all of these attacks because they would pulverize every bone in his body if he didn’t. How does Bang even scale to someone who would’ve one shotted him on that level?

I disagree.

If you're asking for the justification to be changed, then I 100% agree. I was meaning to do so when I edited the profile (the rating change comes from my earlier CRT), but I just forgot to and that's my bad.

The justification should look more like this: (Was able to clash with, knock back, damage, and take attacks from Post-Darkshine Garou)

[Chapter 148 "The Line" pages 9, 10, 11, 14, and 15]

[Chapter 150 "Master and Disciple" pages 1 and 2]

 

[Crabwhale]

Agreed with Kachon.

 

[LordTracer]

I also agree with Kachon.

 

[Kachon123]

Okay, two staff members disagree with the thread, so this is rejected.

I also agree with Kachon.

Do I have permission to fix the justification on Bang's profile?

 

[Kachon123]

Do I have permission to fix the justification on Bang's profile?

Agreed with Kachon.

 

[Crabwhale]

You can go ahead.

 

[Kachon123]

You can go ahead.

Fixed the justifications. This can probably be closed. Thanks for helping out here.

 

[Thelastmlg]

gotta love how y'all managed to do a mini revision before OP even replied back lmao

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with Kachon and disagree with the OP

 

[Cryo123]

I disagree with the CRT. It ignores context and makes up events that didn't happen.

 

[ByAsura]

Yeah, Bang takes his attacks and damages him without even using WSRSF, so I definitely disagree with the downgrade.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Snip

Spoiler

You have a poor understanding on what shockwaves are. Shockwaves are pressured air waves generated from a powerful impact i.e explosions. They are are the results of strong impact point. Garou emitting shockwaves doesn’t refute my point at all, if anything it gives even more reasons to why Bang shouldn’t scale given that Bang would have been pulverized from shockwaves emitted off of Garou which is much weaker than his actual punches.

I never asserting the technique increases durability and him not being harmed from Garou’s own strength refutes nothing. Can you elaborate here? I don’t see what you’re trying to point out here.

That was only for Garou, as stated by Darkshine, “You’re too green” it was simply a lack of skill at the moment and nothing about strength. And bang clearly deflects all of Garou’s attacks so I truly fail to see your point.

I disagree.

If you're asking for the justification to be changed, then I 100% agree. I was meaning to do so when I edited the profile (the rating change comes from my earlier CRT), but I just forgot to and that's my bad.

The justification should look more like this: (Was able to clash with, knock back, damage, and take attacks from Post-Darkshine Garou)

[Chapter 148 "The Line" pages 9, 10, 11, 14, and 15]

[Chapter 150 "Master and Disciple" pages 1 and 2]

I’m not asking for this either, I’m highly against Post Darkshine Garou scaling to Island level with AB, and I highly believe he only reached this level at the end of the fight where he grew enough to one shot Bang with a mere graze from his attack.
This Garou, as presented in the story, is heaps above Bang by this time and Bang shouldn’t be scaling at all.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

2 staff members disagreeing without addressing the Op? What? Since when does that even happen, and nobody addresses the point at all.
My OP points out how Bang doesn’t scale to end of fight Garou due to the difference in strength.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I never asserting the technique increases durability and him not being harmed from Garou’s own strength refutes nothing. Can you elaborate here? I don’t see what you’re trying to point out here.

bang's hand endured being able to crack garou's face
the end

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I disagree with the CRT. It ignores context and makes up events that didn't happen.

Excuse me? What? I’ve listen plenty of evidence that proves exactly what I’m arguing, the context is in the series itself.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

bang's hand endured being able to crack garou's face
the end

And black sperm can endure ripping genos apart even tho genos can one shot him with a headbutt.
This form of argumentation contradicts what’s portrayed on panel. Garou’s hand can endure strength capable of pulverizing Bang, and Bang can endure enough capable of harming Garou. It’s a circular argument that contradicts itself no matter how you put it. Scaling to the recoil of attacks shouldn’t be a justification of durability in a majority of cases.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

And black sperm can endure ripping genos apart even tho genos can one shot him with a headbutt.
This form of argumentation contradicts what’s portrayed on panel. Garou’s hand can endure strength capable of pulverizing Bang, and Bang can endure enough capable of harming Garou. It’s a circular argument that contradicts itself no matter how you put it. Scaling to the recoil of attacks shouldn’t be a justification of durability in a majority of cases.

well I mean, this is a rule that applies to literally every striking feat on the wiki so
why don't you make a crt about that? I'm sure it will go fine

 

[TimmyTurnero]

well I mean, this is a rule that applies to literally every striking feat on the wiki so
why don't you make a crt about that? I'm sure it will go fine

Black sperm doesn’t have this applied to him for the sheer reason that it doesn’t scale to him. Melzard has this applied to him as well.
Again, this should be applied on a case by case basis and in this case it’s physically and narratively impossible for this to apply to Bang.
End of fight Garou>AB garou.
Hell Garou even uses AB twice in the fight.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Bump

 

[Kin201]

Bang and Garou were relative in stats during the fight from the looks of it and Garou decisively beat him because of a secret technique (well he could've probably won even without it anyways).

This thread is saying Bang doesn't scale to Garou and I disagree with it. Whether or not Garou gets stronger right after that fight is up to interpretation and it's accepted that he didn't.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Bang and Garou were relative in stats during the fight from the looks of it and Garou decisively beat him because of a secret technique (well he could've probably won even without it anyways).

In the beginning they were represented as equals, this I do not disagree with. As the fight advances Garou increases in strength, it’s the very nature of his character. Towards the end Garou grew enough to one shot Bang with a graze.

The attack isn’t a “secret technique”, it’s just an attack that utilizes shockwaves to increase the range of attacks. But the attack itself does not increase strength. Never stated or represented to do so. It scales to Garou’s base stats which Bang very clearly does not scale to at this point in the battle.

This thread is saying Bang doesn't scale to Garou and I disagree with it. Whether or not Garou gets stronger right after that fight is up to interpretation and it's accepted that he didn't.

Garou got stronger during the battle, not after

 

[Kin201]

In the beginning they were represented as equals, this I do not disagree with. As the fight advances Garou increases in strength, it’s the very nature of his character. Towards the end Garou grew enough to one shot Bang with a graze.

He one-shot him because of that secret technique as I said. Bomb and Bang were shocked because Garou revealed that he could use that technique, not because Garou's AP suddenly went from Low 7-B to 6-C. Whenever Garou increased in strength, we know his speed increased as well, that's how his monsterization works apparently. It's weird to say Garou's AP went from Low 7-B to 6-C while his speed didn't change a single bit.

The attack isn’t a “secret technique”, it’s just an attack that utilizes shockwaves to increase the range of attacks. But the attack itself does not increase strength. Never stated or represented to do so. It scales to Garou’s base stats which Bang very clearly does not scale to at this point in the battle.

It is definitely a special technique considering how it works - sending shockwaves directly into the body to break bones. It merging martial arts of both Bang and Bomb is enough to say that it is a secret technique.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

He one-shot him because of that secret technique as I said. Bomb and Bang were shocked because Garou revealed that he could use that technique, not because Garou's AP suddenly went from Low 7-B to 6-C. Whenever Garou increased in strength, we know his speed increased as well, that's how his monsterization works apparently. It's weird to say Garou's AP went from Low 7-B to 6-C while his speed didn't change a single bit.

The technique itself doesn’t present an increase in strength, it simply increases the range of the attack’s shockwaves. Garou one shotted him due to growing in power.
Unless there’s some statement implying that it increases strength, then you cannot assert that it does.
Garou’s speed and strength increase’s aren’t 1:1 for all we know his strength can grow at a much faster rate than his speed, and vise versa. It’s not an argument against his growth that is clearly presented in the fight.

It is definitely a special technique considering how it works - sending shockwaves directly into the body to break bones. It merging martial arts of both Bang and Bomb is enough to say that it is a secret technique.

I can agree that it’s a special technique, I don’t recall asserting it’s not special, I simply said it’s not “secret” which implies it’s some secret power up, something it is not.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Dura = AP & redirected AP arguments go crazy

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Dura & redirected AP go crazy

?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

?

so what’s the arguments about? I’m a but confused still reading tho.

what I got from the thread so far is Bang’s AP should scale because his durability (hand endured hitting Garou’s face) so the fact that the redirected AP is ignored?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

so what’s the arguments about? I’m a but confused still reading tho.

The thread was made with the sole purpose of removing all of Bang’s scaling based on being relative to Garou. I’m assuming that my OP was too vague because it was believed upon many staff members that it implied Bang was only scaling due to cracking his face when I intended to refute all ideas of him scaling to Garou.

what I got from the thread so far is Bang’s AP should scale because his durability (hand endured hitting Garou’s face) so the fact that the redirected AP is ignored?

Yeah that’s the gist of it. I’m against scaling to as Garou was strong enough to one shot Bang. He only harmed him (at the end of the fight) via redirecting his own attack towards him and any other instance of him harming Garou is at the start of the fight. Garou adapted and surpasses Bang and that’s clearly shown at the end of the battle.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Yeah, no, I completely disagree. It is explicit that Garou and Bang were comparable in that instance and that Garou won mainly thanks to a special technique (Aka, dura negg)

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Yeah, no, I completely disagree. It is explicit that Garou and Bang were comparable in that instance and that Garou won mainly thanks to a special technique (Aka, dura negg)

At least apply a form of refutation.
Garou doesn’t have durability negation, he has internal damaging attacks.
His shockwaves were still strong enough to pulverize all of Bang’s bones, that variation of Garou is what’s scaling to Island level. Bang does not scale to someone who can destroy all the bones in his body, its illogical.

 

[Kachon123]

2 staff members already agree with my comment saying that Bang was able to fight evenly with Garou. I have no idea why this is still going on.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

2 staff members already agree with my comment saying that Bang was able to fight evenly with Garou. I have no idea why this is still going on.

Because everyone, including you, had an improper idea of what exactly I was proposing. I’m disagreeing with Garou or Bang being Island level before the end of the fight, where Bang would have been one shotted by him. The scaling proposed on the profile is inaccurate and inconsistent with what’s portrayed in the series itself.
2 staff disagreeing does not indicate an inaccuracy in the argument itself, there have been many instances of accepted CRTS being wrong/changed after it has been applied.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

And given the new arguments I’ve given in the threat I’m sure some of them will change their minds.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I am sure you cannot overturn the established durability standards with this thread but you have the freedom to try
Message some staff and ask them to come back and disagree with it again

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh and just because two staff members jumped in here to disagree doesn’t mean the thread should be closed quickly. High-key shitty behavior.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Oh and just because two staff members jumped in here to disagree doesn’t mean the thread should be closed quickly. High-key shitty behavior.

Hit and run tactics, they didn’t even give me time to apply a rebuttal. But again, it’s partially my fault for leaving the OP as vague as it is.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I actually support shitty behavior when it is with people who disagree with me ngl

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I am sure you cannot overturn the established durability standards with this thread but you have the freedom to try
Message some staff and ask them to come back and disagree with it again

If you seriously cannot see the contradictory in Bang scaling to someone who can pulverize every bone in his body with a single punch I truly disagree with you giving input here, and I’m not saying this in a disrespectful manner.