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Avatar Discussion Thread

That was a cascade event. He continuously turned several areas of it into lava, which then ruined other areas which then lead to the temple falling.
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
So, I found this a while back. It's from the creator's commentary from the series finale.

f3UZOL3.png

​
The way Bryan phrases it ("what he chose to do with it") makes it sound like Aang could have used energybending to kill Ozai if he wanted to. Would this be enough for 'Possibly Death Manipulation' under energybending? Considering that the lion turtle told Aang that if he failed the process of energybending, his own energy/self would be corrupted and destroyed, it makes sense that Aang could do the same to Ozai once he succeeded at energybending.

Also, Energybending should give Aang Soul manipulation since Bryan has confirmed that the red and blue lights coming from Aang and Ozai were their souls flipping inside out. Korra already has soul manipulation on her profile, but this aspect of energybending could be included for her too.
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While we're waiting for the Toph calc to be evaluated, I want to know what people think about this.
 
Any hopes for the new series that is coming in a couple of years? Since it will likely feature an earthbending avatar, I hope we get lots more displays of sandbending, as well as more applications/techniques involving energybending. Further exploring how technology may make the avatar become less relevant would also be neat.
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
Any hopes for the new series that is coming in a couple of years? Since it will likely feature an earthbending avatar, I hope we get lots more displays of sandbending, as well as more applications/techniques involving energybending. Further exploring how technology may make the avatar become less relevant would also be neat.
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Not being awful would be nice
 
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I've been compiling a long list of abilities that aren't on the profiles yet. But I'm not sure if I should post them here first, or just dump them all into a crt.
 
  • Magnetism Manipulation for earthbenders. The Dai Lee could magnetize themselves to walls and ceilings. Toph can use metalbending to run up the sides of buildings.
  • Zuko should have resistance to temperature manipulation; he has learned the breath of fire technique, which allows his internal temperature to stay warm even in freezing temperatures (the guy in the video correctly notes that Zuko couldn’t use it to entirely stay warm in the north pole, but he doesn’t take into account that the cooler feat happened two seasons later when Zuko was wiser, had practiced more, and had learned firebending from the original source of firebending, making him more powerful. Indeed, Zuko in his old age was able to firebend in the middle of a frozen tundra. He should also have a post-series key that includes limited flight via using fire propulsion much in the same way that Azula has it in her profile. There should also be a note that states that he knows how to create dragonfire. Whether or not dragonfire is actually hotter than regular fire is debatable, as Aang and Zuko didn’t remark on the dragon’s heat when the funnel surrounded them in The Firebending Masters. Then again, convection schmonvection is liberally applied to the series, what with Toph feeling the heat of the comet-enhanced firebender’s flames, Aang’s glider catching fire in the presence of lava in one episode and the gAang having no problem flying over lava in another. It should be noted that Zuko’s fire included violet flames, and violet fire is the hottest there is. The fire that the dragons produced in The Firebending Masters also included blue flames, and as we’ve seen from Azula, Avatar’s blue fire is indeed hotter than regular fire and can cut through stone.
  • Both Azula and Mako should have durability negation thanks to lightningbending. Lightning in Avatar is so dangerous because it passes through your heart if you don’t redirect it. This doesn’t seem to apply to the uncharged version of lightning, which just knocks you on your ass if you get hit by it.
  • Azula should have a post-series key with which she has Stealth Mastery. She and the other members of her Kemurikage entourage use smoke to flee locations and disorient their foes.
  • Aang should have Extrasensory Perception via his seismic sense technique, which was taught to him by Toph. He should also have it via being able to see spirits when no one else can. Korra should also have it via mentally creating a spiritual specter that only she and other spirits can see. Even Jinora, who could see invisible spirits that others couldn’t see, wasn’t able to see Dark Korra during Korra’s fight with Kuvira. Korra should also have extrasensory perception via being able to locate people through spirit vines, though this ability would be limited only to the Foggy Swamp and Republic City.
  • Aang should have a new key for being merged with the Ocean Spirit at the end of Book 1. Likewise, Korra’s Cosmic Korra key should be separated from her avatar state key as the two are nothing alike. I want to go into detail about spirit physiology later as that's a whole nother can of worms.
  • I already talked about granting Aang and Korra Soul Manipulation and possible Death Manipulation before. If it goes through, then both of them should also have Durability Negation to go along with it. Korra should also get dura neg due to spiritbending.
  • All avatars should have lava manipulation while they’re in the avatar state due to Roku and Kyoshi knowing it and having that knowledge passed down to their next lives. Post-season 2 Korra may not know it though, due to being cut off from that knowledge.
  • Aang and Korra should both have Power Removal and Power Bestowal with energybending. The fact that this isn’t already on their profiles is kind of bonkers.
  • Like Zuko, Mako should get Limited Flight. He can also breathe fire, so that also gives him a Breath Attack.
  • Amon should have Body Puppetry (this one is especially weird because he’s listed under the examples on the body puppetry page, but doesn’t have it in his profile). He should also have Durability Negation via being able to simply crush organs or freeze a person’s blood. Freezing someone’s insides is something that has happened before, as Kyoshi did it in her second novel, and Amon and his family are the strongest non-Avatar waterbenders we’ve seen in the franchise.
  • Speaking of which, Kyoshi should have Durability Negation on her profile because of that feat.
  • Spiritbending should give Unalaq and Korra non-physical Interaction, as both of them are able to use the technique to interact with spirits.
  • This one will probably be controversial, but I’m going to suggest it. Both Unalaq and Korra should have Paralysis Inducement to go along with their spiritbending. Every successful usage of spiritbending has the target or targets trapped within the water tendrils, either suspended helplessly or lulled into a lazy state while their spirit/soul is being destroyed or purified. The only times this didn’t happen was the first two times that Korra attempted the technique… and that second time was against a leviathan spirit in the middle of the ocean. Obviously she hadn’t mastered the technique yet. There was also the time in the Book Three premiere where the technique failed to get rid of the spirit vines. The vines retreated into the ground, only for new ones to take their place. This was likely because the vines are connected to the spirit world and the tree of time. Energybending the vines inside the spirit world later turned out to be much more effective. Now, of course this raises the question of why didn’t Unalaq try to use spiritbending on Korra when she’s outside of the spirit world if the move is so op? Well, entering the avatar state sometimes generates a shockwave that would likely disperse the tendrils of water that make up spiritbending. And the reason why Unalaq doesn’t go around destroying people’s souls is because that would make him international public enemy #1. As for whether spiritbending can affect people who have their physical bodies, I’ve gone over why I believe it can do so here. In addition to the points I made in that thread, there’s also the fact that the vines in Beyond the Wilds were able to transport the trapped human’s souls out of their bodies and into the spirit world. Since the vines were able to ignore physical bodies and directly interact with souls, I don’t see why literal spiritbending can’t do the same.
  • Unavaatu should get Poison Manipulation. At the end of Darkness Falls, him taking off into the sky using the spirit lights generated a shockwave that rendered Korra and her friends unconscious. Kya, an expert healer, says that they need to be taken to spirit water as soon as possible. Spirit water has been shown to have miraculous properties, such as purifying Korra of the remnants of the dark spirit that attacked her earlier in the season, as well as bringing Aang back to life after he was killed by Azula.
  • Zaheer should get Teleportation while he's in the spirit world.
  • Likewise, Korra should also get Teleportation while in the spirit world.
  • Kuvira should have Possible Poison Manipulation. The liquid metal she bends looks very similar to the mercury that Korra was poisoned with. I know this is kind of sketchy, which is why I put “possible”. Even if it’s not mercury, she could bend it into her opponent’s orifices to achieve the same effect as poisoning.
  • For everyone who can project their spirits out of their bodies and into the spirit world (Aang, Korra, Zaheer, Unalaq) their spiritual selves should have Intangibility and Invisibility while in the physical world and regeneration while in the spirit world. It’s unknown if souls have regen in the physical world, as they haven’t been seen attacked there.
  • The avatars should have Reality Warping while in the spirit world. Iroh explains that a person’s emotions affects how the spirit world reacts to them and that this is especially true for the Avatar since they are the bridge between worlds.
  • Korra should have Summoning while in the spirit world. The dragon bird spirit knows where she is whenever she’s in the spirit world. It also saved her when she was about to have her soul destroyed by Unalaq.
  • Along with astral projection, Korra and Zaheer should know Dimensional Travel. Zaheer taught Korra how to meditate and enter the spirit world from any location. Prior to this, it was thought that you had to meditate from sites that were heavy with spiritual energy.
  • Korra should have Limited Resistance to Poison. Though she did eventually succumb to its effects and almost required Suyin to save her, she did manage to fight Zaheer while she was suffering from it. When she confronted Zaheer in prison, he states that the poison should have killed her.
  • Another addition that is likely to be controversial: Illusion resistance for the Avatars. Hundun, the villain of the video game, puts Korra under an illusion that he claims that she will be trapped under “for eternity”. Despite this, the illusion eventually ends, and it’s revealed that barely any time has passed in the real world, if at all, as he’s in the same position he was when the illusion started. The same thing happens when he casts a second illusion. On a third illusion, Korra is inexplicably in her giant spirit state and Hundun insists that she cannot break free. After beating up the enemies in this last illusion, Hundun gives up this strategy and is clearly angry. You could make the argument that Hundun turned her into her giant spirit state as part of the illusion to make her panic, but I don’t think that makes any sense considering that her spirit state can let Korra soak up tremendous amounts of damage. I think it’s more likely that Raava triggered the spirit state while Korra was in the illusion to help free her. Given the vagueness of the whole section, I think it’s likely Avatars can get “possible” illusion resistance, though I understand if even that doesn’t get accepted.
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
The avatars should have Reality Warping while in the spirit world
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This is more so a property of the spirit world itself. It bends to the thoughts of everyone in it, which we see in the Kyoshi novels with Yun, who was in so much pain he left a giant scar upon the land. It's not really a unique quality that she has, it's just a bit more sensitive to her thoughts.
 
Emerald said:
Is the game canon?
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Several second-hand sources such as the wiki, tv tropes and ign say that the game is canon, but every time they link a source to the creators they never specifically use the word. But there is an interview where they talk about keeping the canon of the franchise cohesive and not contradictory, and they explicitly mention the video game around 1:30:00.
 
When/if Aang fused with the Ocean Spirit and Cosmic Korra get their own keys, I'm pretty sure that they, Raava, and Vaatu should all get Invulnerability. Spirits while they're in the physical world are very difficult, if not impossible to kill. They can feel pain and get knocked around, but the only thing that can put them down is the spirtbending technique. In the game, Korra notes that she can't beat dark spirits without spiritbending. Zhao managed to kill the Moon Spirit because it had chosen to give itself a mortal form. Aang managed to grievously wound General Old Iron using an attack with all four elements, but afterward Old Iron was able to walk around and talk and said that he was "vanquished", not killed. Given that he seems to be an amalgamation of smaller spirits, it looks like Aang merely disrupted their ability to hold themselves together.

In The Shadow of Kyoshi, Kuruk managed to kill several dark spirits while in the spirit world. Kuruk was a proud avatar, and it's possible that his self-image as a hunter rubbed off on the spirit world and allowed him to kill the spirits there. It's been shown that spirits/souls that are intangible in the physical world can be struck in the spirit world, so I feel like this isn't too off the mark. It's notable that killing each dark spirit put a big strain on Kuruk's own spirit, sending him into a deep depression and ultimately shortening his lifespan; he would die young at age 33.

Mike and Bryan describe spirits as projections of pure energy that can shift into different states of matter. Judging from their earlier mentions of astrology and their final remark of them potentially being "reabsorbed into the cosmos", the energy they are made out of appears to originate from space, which makes sense, considering that the last step to unlocking mastery of the avatar state is to also emerge your inner self in cosmic energy by letting go of the world. The connection between spirits and space is also seen during Harmonic Convergence, an event where all the planets align every 10,000 years. Korra was also able to energybend herself during that event, creating an astral projection of herself without needing Raava’s power. Spirits and energybending appear to be closely linked: energybending is the only type of bending that can be used in the spirit world when you’ve transported into the world via meditation. Tenzin has stated that before the era of Wan, the first avatar, ancient humans convened in the tree of time to connect to the universe. Finally, Mike and Bryan have confirmed that the spirit world is not primarily an afterlife. Humans can choose to become spirits when they die, or they can reincarnate, or their souls return back to cosmic energy.
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
When/if Aang fused with the Ocean Spirit and Cosmic Korra get their own keys, I'm pretty sure that they, Raava, and Vaatu should all get Invulnerability. Spirits while they're in the physical world are very difficult, if not impossible to kill. They can feel pain and get knocked around, but the only thing that can put them down is the spirtbending technique. In the game, Korra notes that she can't beat dark spirits without spiritbending. Zhao managed to kill the Moon Spirit because it had chosen to give itself a mortal form. Aang managed to grievously wound General Old Iron using an attack with all four elements, but afterward Old Iron was able to walk around and talk and said that he was "vanquished", not killed. Given that he seems to be an amalgamation of smaller spirits, it looks like Aang merely disrupted their ability to hold themselves together.

In The Shadow of Kyoshi, Kuruk managed to kill several dark spirits while in the spirit world. Kuruk was a proud avatar, and it's possible that his self-image as a hunter rubbed off on the spirit world and allowed him to kill the spirits there. It's been shown that spirits/souls that are intangible in the physical world can be struck in the spirit world, so I feel like this isn't too off the mark. It's notable that killing each dark spirit put a big strain on Kuruk's own spirit, sending him into a deep depression and ultimately shortening his lifespan; he would die young at age 33.

Mike and Bryan describe spirits as projections of pure energy that can shift into different states of matter. Judging from their earlier mentions of astrology and their final remark of them potentially being "reabsorbed into the cosmos", the energy they are made out of appears to originate from space, which makes sense, considering that the last step to unlocking mastery of the avatar state is to also emerge your inner self in cosmic energy by letting go of the world. The connection between spirits and space is also seen during Harmonic Convergence, an event where all the planets align every 10,000 years. Korra was also able to energybend herself during that event, creating an astral projection of herself without needing Raava’s power. Spirits and energybending appear to be closely linked: energybending is the only type of bending that can be used in the spirit world when you’ve transported into the world via meditation. Tenzin has stated that before the era of Wan, the first avatar, ancient humans convened in the tree of time to connect to the universe. Finally, Mike and Bryan have confirmed that the spirit world is not primarily an afterlife. Humans can choose to become spirits when they die, or they can reincarnate, or their souls return back to cosmic energy.
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None of this justifies invulnerability. Also, Old Iron isn't an amalgam of other spirits, he's his own individual person. Like Lady Tienhan was. He just dispersed after being killed, as she herself said spirits change form after being killed instead of truly dying while dispersing into animals like he did. These are just qualities tied to their incorporeality and type 4 immortality.
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
That's not what the scan says, though. She just says that spirits don't die. And like the moon spirit, Lady Tienhan chose to be a mortal and lived a mortal life, eventually dying of old age, after which she gained her current form.
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Well in the case of Old Iron, he was killed by Aang. But yes technically she refers to death in general. The point is that after death they come back with a new form. Not sure what the argument is here though, it's still not invulnerability.
 
WIngs_Of_Despair said:
Well in the case of Old Iron, he was killed by Aang. But yes technically she refers to death in general. The point is that after death they come back with a new form. Not sure what the argument is here though, it's still not invulnerability.
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He wasn't "killed" though; he just considered Aang defeated and vanquished him in battle. I know the wiki isn't too reliable because it's all second-hand, but the word killed is never said there either on Old Iron's page. The point is that spirits are never shown dying in the physical world unless it's under special circumstances.
"Invulnerability is the power to be immune to conventional harm. Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through." That fits pretty well with how we see the spirits in the series. The only things that have defeated them are spiritbending, or a fully-powered avatar state using all four elements. There's also the option to use limited invulnerability, as the article says.
 
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BrackishBrineBroth said:
He wasn't "killed" though; he just considered Aang defeated and vanquished him in battle. I know the wiki isn't too reliable because it's all second-hand, but the word killed is never said there either on Old Iron's page. The point is that spirits are never shown dying in the physical world unless it's under special circumstances.
"Invulnerability is the power to be immune to conventional harm. Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through." That fits pretty well with how we see the spirits in the series. The only things that have defeated them are spiritbending, or a fully-powered avatar state using all four elements. There's also the option to use limited invulnerability, as the article says.
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I would describe what happened to him as being killed, even if it didn't result in actual death. He literally has a giant hole in his chest that Aang thought of as fatal. He initially didn't wanna go all out because he was literally worried about killing Old Iron and then after he attacks him he offers to get Katara to heal his wounds (obviously because he doesn't think he'll survive the injury) then we see him scatter into animals, the same type of form that Lady Tienhan took after her own death. The ability to not die under normal circumstances is called immortality, which is something they actually have. It's automatically not invulnerability because spirits can be visibly wounded by conventional attacks. If big AP is all it takes to overcome your invulnerability, then you're probably not any form of invulnerable. They literally don't fit the definition.
 
SuperStar said:
Is there any other calc or some kind of statement to support Avatar's current Low 6-B rating?
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You mean aside from the Kyoshi one?

WIngs_Of_Despair said:
If big AP is all it takes to overcome your invulnerability, then you're probably not any form of invulnerable. They literally don't fit the definition.
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I otherwise agree with your reasoning, but want to point out that the invulnerability page literally has a vid of someone getting hurt by high enough ap.
 
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