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Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou Discussion Thread 2

EL_xWatcher1234x said:
Modal realism ?

I'm good if the world tree get 5D.
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The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Outerverse level+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process, being on a which in which their power influences the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space," where the laws governing it are the three laws of thought), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.

That said, characters who embody the framework of all possible worlds properly speaking may be rightly considered more powerful than those that can simply create arbitrarily big possible worlds while nevertheless existing in one.
 
Community_Gamer said:
But being a "larger branch" at that point is pretty subjective and kinda irrelevant in terms of dimensionality unless there's a specific notable size distinction being made. For example, branch A is inaccessibly larger than branch B.
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Size doesn't matter. If the branches that are connected have their own time axis then it's an extra dimensional jump. Because here being connected, if you materialize it just gives small multiverses in large multiverses.
 
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EL_xWatcher1234x said:
We have the major branches of the tree holding smaller branches which aslo hold smaller branches and it continue, then we have leaves on these branches.

Branch= a cosmos(law, concept, physics...) of its own that consist of who know how many universes. Some branches may have simmilar concepts and some may not have some fundamental concepts like time, death... These concepts might be similar but they're limited to that branch.

The compass can't detect anything outside the nine realms



Leaves on the branch= the universes of this cosmology.


So it's
World tree->major branch->smaller branch->the branch that carries the nine realms->Nine Realms
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With this diagram it is clearer. I see 5-D minimum. If each branch has its time axis then I see 8-D.
 
Layers:

The same characters hax worked on the apostle during the war.
“Dammit, these guys heal from petrification in seconds!”

“My illusions don’t work on them, either! And any debuffs I cast get removed right away!”

“Saitou, Nakano! You two are mages too, aren’t you!? You’ve gotta help!”

Kentarou, whose Job was Geomancer, kept casting petrification magic on the monsters, but it had little effect. Akito, who was an Illusionist, tried manipulating the monsters into attacking each other, but that failed as well. Meanwhile, Nana, who was a Hydrosophist, fired ice spears one after another to push the monsters back. Vol 11 p116
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Their hax was useless against chimera left by Fried in the demon king castle in Volume 11. This prove that Hajime artifact(Info Magic) could add layers or weaken resistance like what happen to the apostles.

Also aura can protect from elemental magic ?
Alva also tossed Shea into the lightning storm, making doubly sure that she wouldn’t make a comeback.

“I also order you—Accept your punishment.”

The four of them had instinctively started emitting mana to protect themselves, but they stopped upon hearing Alva’s command, screaming as the lightning struck their unprotected flesh. By the time the storm passed, the four of them were twitching weakly, their bodies covered in burns. Vol 11 p122
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Them=Tio, Shia, Shizuku and Kaori
The lightning attack was casted by the apostles. At least we know characters on their level could survive a lightning strike without protection. Why Shizuku is missing this resistance ?

Reactive evolution?
That was the reason Shea had lost to Alva. She could fight his Divine Edict. In fact, it only took her a second to break through it. But that second was precious time lost, and slowly but surely, Alva had been able to pile more and more damage onto her. Vol 11 p122
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Even Remia could resist Soul Magic for a moment thanks to her willpower.
As Myu struggled in vain, Remia tried to reach for her daughter. But the Divine Edict was still working on her, so she couldn’t even stand. That being said, she still managed to croak a few words out, as well as move her hand a few inches. It was honestly impressive that a normal person like her had even accomplished that. However, even the strength of a mother’s love was worthless in the face of Alva’s cruelty. Vol 11 p123
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Ancient Magic resistance hax come from willpower instead of mana.
 
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EL_xWatcher1234x said:
We have the major branches of the tree holding smaller branches which aslo hold smaller branches and it continue, then we have leaves on these branches.

Branch= a cosmos(law, concept, physics...) of its own that consist of who know how many universes. Some branches may have simmilar concepts and some may not have some fundamental concepts like time, death... These concepts might be similar but they're limited to that branch.

The compass can't detect anything outside the nine realms



Leaves on the branch= the universes of this cosmology.


So it's
World tree->major branch->smaller branch->the branch that carries the nine realms->Nine Realms
Click to expand...
Alright this all sounds reasonable and consistent. Here's my current interpretation and understanding in scaling terms:

World Tree: at least [7D] Tier 1-C (we really don't have enough information on the comprehensiveness of the World Tree but unless we get infinite transcendence or higher scaling for the leaves and branches...it'd cap her imo)
Major Branch: at least [6D] Tier 1-C (since major branches would sustain an contain numerous minor branches)
Minor Branch: at least [5D] due prior scaling, but possibly [6D] Tier 1-C/Complex Multiversal (kinda depends on the significance of the differences between branches)
Arifureta Cosmology Branch: [5D] Tier Low 1-C/Low Complex Multiversal
Leaves/Nine Realms: [4D] at least Tier Low 2-C, but possibly 2-A/Multiversal+
 
Digital_Franz said:
Size doesn't matter. If the branches that are connected have their own time axis then it's an extra dimensional jump. Because here being connected, if you materialize it just gives small multiverses in large multiverses.
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking, so yeah both branches would be 5D at best then. Maybe Major Branches should scale higher but otherwise the size is irrelevant.
 
Community_Gamer said:
Alright this all sounds reasonable and consistent. Here's my current interpretation and understanding in scaling terms:

World Tree: at least [7D] Tier 1-C (we really don't have enough information on the comprehensiveness of the World Tree but unless we get infinite transcendence or higher scaling for the leaves and branches...it'd cap her imo)
Major Branch: at least [6D] Tier 1-C (since major branches would sustain an contain numerous minor branches)
Minor Branch: at least [5D] due prior scaling, but possibly [6D] Tier 1-C/Complex Multiversal (kinda depends on the significance of the differences between branches)
Arifureta Cosmology Branch: [5D] Tier Low 1-C/Low Complex Multiversal
Leaves/Nine Realms: [4D] at least Tier Low 2-C, but possibly 2-A/Multiversal+
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Too early to confirm it, but noice.
 
Does Avenst to be have a higher dimensionality to travel worlds outside the nine realms ?

We have them mentioning "the sea of dimensions", but I think it refers to the worlds.
 
The True World Astral where the world tree is located could be infinite in comparison to the multiverse.

and
「Apparently when avatars like Aularodde and others become an avatar, they felt like they became connected with something endless. But, it doesn’t seem like they were granted any particular knowledge from the World Tree. Even Aularodde only knew this from the word of mouth that are passed down from the first generation heaven tree’s avatar until her generation. She has never actually gone there herself.」Ch 386
Click to expand...

The reason Heaven world natives needed help
「Could it be, you know of the reason why the influx of conception has dropped sharply!?」

「Well, about that, I only have a guess.」

Hajime shrugged, however his gaze was sharp.

「Or rather, you yourself also understand why right?」

「……It’s impossible for the legends themselves are vanishing from all the worlds. Then the most possible reason is……something happened to the heaven trees in each world.」

「Yeah. At the very least the trees at earth and helltwo worlds are gone. Even at the previous world where you called us from, the tree there was in the verge of rotting because its energy kept getting sucked out with abandon. Ua Alto is being preserved in a state that can be revived anytime, but usually it is intentionally kept in a withered state.」Ch 385
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It seems that the worlds could a be dependent on each others. Or it's because their myth comes from another world .


Altough their myth is their source, they can survive without it like the DRAGON or the apparitions on earth.
 
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Just make this clear

When people are reincarnated in the fairy world are they rebon as apparitions or fairies ? Or this world is an exception ?

Apparitions are born from conception and their instinct is based on their myth unlike the personality that they develop.

Fairies are born from apparitions wishes after they materialize them into reality using the element of thought. They're like their children and they have a lifespan.

Not sure, but apparitions can't reincarnate. Unlike fairies apparitions can't die and will be reborn in their world as long their myth remain.


Everyone is AE ?
Conception is the source of characters. When Hajime erased Ehit and the holy precinct monster, it was stated that he erased their negative conception. Does it mean it's a simillar to the source from Anos Voldigoad ?
Limited Abstract Existence (Type 1. An excellent magician can keep their memories in their source, which is the fundamental concept of existence that exists deeper than the body, soul and mind, and even if the physical body perishes, as long as the source is intact, they can be revived. In other words, they can "think" and utilise powers with only their source[14][15])
Click to expand...
Is similar to info type 2 ?


We have dragons collective mind creating a new conception of dragon goddess.
In addition because she became high from the special made drink, her sadistic nature was working in full forceand she even used soul magic to smash the pride of the dragons into small pieces.

As the result, somehow she got worshipped as god.

It was even reaching until a level of producing a new conception that was based on faith. That faith even magnified Yue’s power completely.

Just like when Hajime became like a demon god, Yue also became like the goddess of the dragons.

And, like this many dragons passionately desired to migrate to the Miniature Garden because they wished to serve that goddess. Ch 425
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Not sure if the goddess part is literal, but unlike Hajime we have an evidence that a new conception was created and that she became the embodiment of that concept(Goddess of dragons).

Why do we accept Ehit and Alva as an AE when The only difference is lacking a body and being able to take action as a soul. Altough Ehit could be a special case because he used conception to raise his existence.
 
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EL_xWatcher1234x said:
Is similar to info type 2 ?
Click to expand...
It can also be a concept.
EL_xWatcher1234x said:
Why do we accept Ehit and Alva as an AE when The only difference is lacking a body and being able to take action as a soul.
Click to expand...
For AE you have to either exist as the abstraction or embody the abstraction.
EL_xWatcher1234x said:
Altough Ehit could be a special case because he used conception to raise his existence.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's it.

There is no evidence for Yue for both types of AE.
 
Digital_Franz said:
It can also be a concept.
Click to expand...
It is concept type 2 because it govern everything related to the conception.
Digital_Franz said:
For AE you have to either exist as the abstraction or embody the abstraction.
Click to expand...
From what I understood, they all could embody a conception (type 2) while alive or be its avatar, and when they die they are reborn as the true abstraction (type 1).

Think of "the hoddess of dragons" as a part of Yue that empower her. She isn't abstract but that conception is directed toward her.
Digital_Franz said:
Yes, that's it.

There is no evidence for Yue for both types of AE.
Click to expand...
You're right

We also Ehit was stuck in Tortus and needed a body to leave his pocket dimension or travel to another universe.


I could wait for better evidences.
 
Digital_Franz said:
You reversed, it is Type 2 that grants resurrection.
Click to expand...

They're reborn as a different person based on the same conception, that's why they don't have mid-godly regeneration/resurrection.
「Wait a second, Nagumo, Amanogawa. ……Ehito, won’t he revive in this world? He is already gone after all, and the world thinks that it was the “evil Ehito” who was killed at the decisive battle right? People there still believe in the “good Ehito” right now.」

「No, the conception from Tortus won’t flow here with Ua Alto in a dry state like that.」

「Ah, I see. ……In that case it was a really good job by the liberators then?」

Aularodde tilted her head at the conversation between the three and,

「The influx of conception is an upsurge kofuuh, even if that person called “Ehito” obtained life in this world, his personality won’t be the same with the one that you know kofuuh」

Aularodde also added that it was also the same with the case if the legend was real that they talked just now.

In short, the existence here would be a different person with only similar skill and appearance. Everyone understood that explanation. Kouki turned a respectful gaze toward Aularodde, but then his gaze immediately became filled with disappointment next seeing the suspicious person going ‘kofukofuh’ there. Ch 386
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Ehit has died, but another "Ehit" will be reborn in the heaven wirld based on his conception.

Why was Ehit accepted as type 2 or 1 without him truly becoming that abstraction or gaining resurrection from it?

Killing Ehit≠Killing the conception of Ehit


BTW Conception=collective mind/myths/legends/concepts
When someone(person with legends and stories about his deed or people hold an image of this person) die, an entity that embodies those ideas is born from conception.
 
EL_xWatcher1234x said:
Why was Ehit accepted as type 2 or 1 without him truly becoming that abstraction or gaining resurrection from it?
Click to expand...
Not only do we become abstraction at death.

Type 1: Exists as an abstraction. For example, existing characters literally being darkness.

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction. Thz Abstraction exists separately from the character. The character is a kind of avatar of the abstraction and as long as the abstraction exists the character can be reborn.
 
Digital_Franz said:
I'll take a look at it later.
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Forgot to mention this
「You said that god apparitions also exist, but in case they came from legend that really exist, does that means there will be two of the same gods existing?」

For example, the hell’s demon. Kousuke also went 「Now that you mention it you’re right……」 and nodded.

「There are cases where it’s like that, but there are also cases where it’s not like that kofuuh」

「What do you mean?」

「The existences that are born in this world is depending on the influx of conception. But, in case the legend isn’t just mere legend but really exist kofuuh, the conception will naturally be directed toward the actual existence kofuuh.」

「……I see. So what the heaven tree is drawing toward itself in the end is only the floating conception that has nowhere to go.」Ch 386
Click to expand...
 
Digital_Franz said:
Like AE.
Click to expand...
Ex:

1)If people belive in superman as their savior or to be invincible...; he'll get empowerment and other abilities related to those ideas(conception) while alive. In case he died another "superman" will be born from the collective belief of people, but he'll be another person.

2) If someone was worshiped as god, he'll become one and gain some divine attributes related to what people believe god should have.


The're affected by conception without them being dead. Are they AE ?
 
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EL_xWatcher1234x said:
Ex:

1)If people belive in superman as their savior or to be invincible...; he'll get empowerment and other abilities related to those ideas(conception) while alive. In case he died another "superman" will be born from the collective belief of people, but he'll be another person.

2) If someone was worshiped as god, he'll become one and gain some divine attributes related to what people believe god should have.


The're affected by conception without them being dead. Are they AE ?
Click to expand...
I think it might be AE Type 2 with your description.
 
EL_xWatcher1234x said:
simpler example:

Once upon a time, a chicken lived did some stuff. People start gathered rumors, telling myths and legends about it this result in the chicken gaining superpowers based on those ideas. When this chicken died, an egg(conception) hatched and a new chicken was born that embodies those ideas.
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Wtf?
EL_xWatcher1234x said:
Which of these two is abstract ?
Chicken N°1 or Chicken N°2 or both
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Actually chiken 1 is chiken 2 although the explanation is super weird.
 
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