Archie Sonic revisions that should have gone through a year ago.

[Foneybone1]

No, what I finds silly is scaling a character to another character just because they both beat a third character. If Bunnie was able to one shot Kovos (she isn't) that doesn't mean she's as strong as Feist, it means they're both stronger than Kodos.

Yes there's smoke, smoke from were Kodos was, Feist doesn't breath smoke, why do you think he's breathing smoke?

1. To show that dream sequences aren't used for scaling.

2. Except he does interfere when he's hit by "Feist" we don't know what changes that resulted in. Not to mention Feist just stands there while Max talks to Sonic, I'm not saying his memories didn't happen, I'm saying once Sonic enters the dream zone his memories are no longer 100% correct and shouldn't be used.

(Omega "hurting" Feist shouldn't be used for scaling either, but that's a different topic) Nevermind, this actually is the same topic, um...that thing I said

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'm going to be posting a response in half an hour or so

 

[ElixirBlue]

> Yes there's smoke, smoke from were Kodos was, Feist doesn't breath smoke, why do you think he's breathing smoke?

And yes, You can see from the panel the smoke gets thinner at Fiest's mouth, which is how it looks when someone breaths out smoke.

I am not responding to anymore of your points if you continually, actively ignore mine.

 

[Foneybone1]

I feel like we're both focusing on the wrong things here. The only things that matter out of all of that are:

Sonic did not tank an attack from Feist

No one scales to Feist one shoting Kovos

 

[ElixirBlue]

> No one scales to Feist one shoting Kodos

"One shotting" as killing Kodos?

 

[Foneybone1]

One shotting, as in doing what we see on panel, causally blasting him out of the issue. Even if we assume he BFR Kodos, that's not some 2C feat others would scal to for defeating Kodos.

 

[ElixirBlue]

One shotting, as in doing what we see on panel, causally blasting him out of the issue. Even if we assume he BFR Kodos, that's not some 2C feat others would scal to for defeating Kodos.

BFR or knocking out. There are hit effects on Kodos.


_____________________________________________

We know from later events that Naugus wanted Kodos and King Max as servants and at the time, Fiest was a servant of Naugus.

Which is why King Max was still alive after encountering Fiest.

 

[Foneybone1]

I appologize, I missuremembed this statement you said earlier as postulating Feist may have BFR Kodos.

> "Get rid" could mean BFR or incap

In any event, it doesn't matter, knocking out Kodos does not make someone scale to Feist just because he curb stomped him.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Yes it would, though not equally. Regardless, There is a clearer scaling chain for Fiest thanks to Omega.

 

[Foneybone1]

That's not how scaling works. If character A and character B both beat character C, A doesn't scale to B, they both only scale above C. We don't even know how strong Feist was before getting the Chaos Emeralds, him beating Kodos is irrelevant.

Omega doesn't scale to Feist any more than base Sonic scales to Enerjak, see the rest of the 2C section.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Omega did hurt Fiest. Base Sonic made Enerjak flinch.

Omega's hurt Fiest through Robotnik's explosions. This is canon and it is what happen as it allowed Team Dark to escape with a Chaos Emerald.

 

[Air_Raid_Malocchio]

Damn, I posted some rebuttals with scans this time,but it was scrambled. This Phone sucks.

 

[Foneybone1]

I hate when that happens, after the first couple times I tried to get into the habit of copying my comment and refresh the page before commenting.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Yeah, that's suck. Happen to me as well.

Foney? Omega hurt Fiest.

 

[ShakeResounding]

First and foremost

In the future, I'd recommend saving each respective topic for their own Content Revision Thread, as condensing them all into one giant wall of text like this can make people reluctant to actually participate in the thread.

• I agree that the sea of Chaos Emeralds from Ish #35 were not included in the Great Harmony
• I agree that Power Rings should lose Power Null
• I'm neutral on whether or not Power Rings/Chaos Emeralds should be considered Standard equipment
• I agree that Mogul's Sixth Sense should be listed to Extrasensory Perception as opposed to Precognition
• I agree with Sonic's Type 3 Abstract Existence being removed, as that type no longer exists on Vs Battles

Now for the things I disagree with.

Naugus
"Sonic is shown in issue 223 to be unable to do anything to Naugus"

False. That very same scan shows Naugus using his hax to completely avoid being hit, and in no way means that Sonic can't harm him regularly. Elias also stating that he's "too powerful" doesn't necessarily equate to not scaling. Especially when Naugus reacts with pai to Sonic hitting him in one of the very issues you use to help your argument.

Nearly all of your points are dependent on things stemming from Naugus' abilities and in no way equates to Naugus' physicality being so far above everyone else. This isn't even mentioning the fact that they can survive hits from him.

Additionally, it is stated that he developed it into what it currently is from his bio, hence the creation feats. It even says it was a small bubble of space-time.

"His ability to manipulate the zone from the outside also does not truly show universal manipulation as, even while enhanced, he is unable to affect anything outside the zone while inside and is unable to leave the zone without outside assistance in issue 53."

This sounds like a disadvantage of the Zone rather than him having nothing. He doesn't have power drawn from the Zone itself from the outside either. One of the scans directly shows that never happened. So again, nothing ever says the zone naturally had crystalline properties, there is more against that via the fact it was just a space-time bubble originally if anything

Feist
This sca that you used proves nothing. Rouge being impressed in Omega's capabilities, and Omega himself gloats on how easy it was to harm it and how it was "only" one of his bombs shows this.

Mogul
"These are the only times an unenhanced Mogul has battled Sonic, therefore, issue 114 creates an inconsistency."

This is just a blatant lie. The very scan you used states the Sword was ampimg his power.

Additionally, his feat in Issue 163 is not the same as his feat in Issue 114. The former was a raw omnidirectional blast, and the latter was more concentrated. So unless he can negate shields, it once again comes down to hax.

And the one where we was toying with Naugus? They were both using weapons from the Source of All to amp themselves. So again, it shouldn't be used.

Al and Cal
The flooring that both Tails and Sonic were both standing on top of in the 3rd and 4th panel got fully enveloped by the blast in the 5th panel. Furthermore, this tiering is outright backed up because both survived the blast as per Al's own direct words and Sonic continued on to talk to Tails and recovered after said damage with Tails getting back up to stand and neither were knocked out state nor maimed. Accounting for surface area for the blast of what hit them both wouldn't matter here anyway considering the tier for the serious blast Cal made is low 2-C via Al being surprised they survived and they got hit by this tier of attack potency that cannot be accounted for by mathematics and rather only by concept regardless. Low 2-C tier stats via powerscaling from this durability feat stays because Mobian characters can physically harm them beyond and comparable to this instance and the duo are able to comparably harm those that harm them.

Additionally, the collars seem to cut off special abilities rather than weaken someone's physical strength. Which is why an alternate version of Geoffrey taking down Al and Cal and Scourge wailing on him also helps his case.

The Chaos Emeralds
Regardless of the methodology Feist used to combine them into seven, they should be more powerful than their Pre-Harmony counterparts. We don't need a statement that indicates them to be stronger Post-Harmony; throughout the entire series, combining multiple Chaos Emeralds has always resulted in more power than one Emerald.

Regarding Ian Flynn's statement, that can fall under Death of the Author. By his logic ("infinity + infinity = infinity") one Chaos Emerald would be as powerful as seven Chaos Emeralds, which is clearly untrue. Author statements that contradict what's shown in the series can indeed be dismissed.

The Sword of Acorns

There's no evidence Sonic could replicate feats performed by members of the House of Acorn or characters learned in magic such as Mogul.

Actually, in the official comic Encyclopedia, it states that "even a novice could achieve master-level techniques with just the sword in hand". Even Dr. Eggman


Power Rings
The events of SSS15 were indeed retconned, but Nate Morgan still BFR'd Naugus in Ish #66. Nothing states he was using an enhanced Ring, either.

While I agree Rings should lose their Power Null, there's no reason they should lose their BFR.

Power Null Resistance

Locke alone was blocked from the emerald rather than everyone.

Naw. It was outright stated that Sonic should not have been able to use the Master Emerald due to Finitevus' Hex, yet he does so anyway. Scourge being able to use the ME due to the Hex is either the result of inconsistent writing or he simply has Resistance has well, as he is a very similar version of Sonic.

Immortality
Sonic has Type 3 from being noted to have advanced healing due to residual Ring energy. Not only that, but Sonic's aura is still ultimately said to retain his life force. Not only that, but the profile already shows that he was stated and show to be successfully vaporized by Robotnik. And even then, he was only temporarily left in a state of limbo until he had a reality/fiction adventure that led to his retur.

Archie's multiverse is already stated to have many possible futures that are divergent. It's already established that distant futures are mere possibilities, just like Light Mobius and Dark Mobius are only potential futures from things that could have been. We don't use alternative Sonic's to gauge the capabilities of the main one, furthered homed by the fact that Prelates are made of concentrated life force despite Sonic already being stated to retain his. It'll lead to a mess.

Also the Mephiles death thing should be ignored, basically. It literally just said "the events of the game happened in the comics and Solaris was successfully brought out". Mephiles killed Sonic because the game killed him, and is basically continuity. If we do that, then Sonic should equally have mind hax resistance because it's said Chronicles happened iirc.

Post-SGW Chaos
Chaos' ability to control the planet's oceans scales to the power of his hydrokinesis, which in turn scales to Sonic and co.

 

[Foneybone1]

Oh did you work Maverick's comment into yours? I was wondering why he removed his.

I'll edit a response to Blue's comment here when my situation allows it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The one I'll agree on is the power of the 2-A. Flynn outright said that and pretty much implied that the power boost having more Emeralds had was retconned by mentioning the contradictions and still going along with his statements. The fact that other characters are still SS level despite the fact that he should no-Diff em also supports this. If Sonic and co never mentioned becoming stronger and there's a statement that's outright against it, no reason for it to be that.

Immortality should also go. Many times Sonic would've been beaten to death, and there's what the OP said too. With the Annihilator feat debunked there's more against it than for it.

I won't touch the rest tho. At least not yet. Y'all already hate me enough without screwing with this. I hope fate gets nuked but that's because I hate fate manipulation as an ability in general.

 

[ShakeResounding]

The one I'll agree on is the power of the 2-A. Flynn outright said that and pretty much implied that the power boost having more Emeralds had was retconned by mentioning the contradictions and still going along with his statements. The fact that other characters are still SS level despite the fact that he should no-Diff em also supports this. If Sonic and co never mentioned becoming stronger and there's a statement that's outright against it, no reason for it to be that.

The powet if 2-A, while lowered if anything, doesn't take that big of a blow. Need I remind you of Archie's version of Maginaryworld that Solaris was still gonna destroy, which hosts the dreams of an infinite amount of universes in there and would likely still be better than damn near every non-infinite 2-A on site? I win again, Cal, your favorite 2-As are still no match in terms of AP? OvO

Also don't ignore what I said in my Immortality post, Cal. There's no "more goes against it than for it" stuff when I did my best to render that null, and your arguments of "well he would've been beat to death" would be nothing more than a plot device. As if that's uncommon in fiction just to add suspense, eh?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Oh did you work Maverick's comment into yours? I was wondering why he removed his.

I'll edit a response to Blue's comment here when my situation allows it.

Yeah he asked me to post for him. I hope that's okay!

 

[Foneybone1]

Oh of course, that'd be fine, it actually works out that I wasn't able to respond earlier. However, I don't have access to my computer at the moment, so I probably won't be able to make a proper response until tomorrow.

 

[Air_Raid_Malocchio]

If we claim Death of the Author via Flynn's statements about emeralds,then we have to also acknowledge that the encyclopedia blatantly contradicts actual events in the books,like Mogul only wounding the Walkers once instead of twice.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ah a 4 infinites feat. How...quaint. Mwahahahaha.

I mean, even low tier regenerators like Buu can't be beaten to death. If Sonic can be threatened by a good whoop, he shouldn't be immortal unless it's type 1 or a lesser scale of 3. The vaporization feat seems to be a case like this. It's why comics, there's a big idea of "they're not dead unless you show me the body", because being vaped can be some sort of BFR, and given he wound up with those random kids, it seemed to be BFR that was thought to be getting nuked.

Again, ain't touching anything else yet tho. Get other staff tho so we don't loop like we always do.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Well he wasn't BFR'd iirc, he was sent to a sort of limbo. And it was said somewhere that he was indeed successfully vaporized in the blast. Type 8? Meh, you could argue against it helping that case. Some form of resurrection? More likely.

Also yeah, sure, but I wanna wait for Foney's response to see if we can resolve it ourselves before anyone else is needed to be involved. Otherwise it's just the "I agree with so and so" game.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Oh of course, that'd be fine, it actually works out that I wasn't able to respond earlier. However, I don't have access to my computer at the moment, so I probably won't be able to make a proper response until tomorrow.

Take your time. The thread's not going anywhere if you look away lol

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Not sure if I'm late to the party or not but I agree with Shake's stances and things agreed to be removed, of course.

 

[Genericstickman]

but Sonic isn't aware of his immortality right? I'm pretty sure no one is

 

[Theuser789]

I agree with Shake

 

[Theuser789]

Also, didn't the comment already explained the part of level of 2-A already?

 

[Foneybone1]

If we claim Death of the Author via Flynn's statements about emeralds,then we have to also acknowledge that the encyclopedia blatantly contradicts actual events in the books,like Mogul only wounding the Walkers once instead of twice.

The encyclopedia retconning something is different from WOG retconning something, unlike Ian answering a question on his forum, it has to go through a lot more to get to publishing and whatnot. The new placement of Mogul wounding the walkers is also consistent throughout the encyclopedia, it's clearly a retcon. Beyond that though, WOG and DotA aren't all or nothing scenarios. WOG can be right about one thing and wrong about another. Heck, my opponents also accept some WOG but not others.

Ian's statement that power beyond 7 emearlds doesn't matter only experience is objectively wrong, even in his own writing, and should be thrown out, but that doesn't mean everything he's said on his forum is wrong.

 

[Foneybone1]

So I'm still working on a reply to Shake, but I'd like to propose two things. First is that due to the inevitable length of discussion that'll arise, we postpone 2C discussion until the other topics are settled, at least as far as that particular response is concerned (Blue's as well since it's also about 2C) Second would be that in general, the thread hold off on fate hax and Chaos Froce talk until the rest of the OP is finished due to the likelihood they will indeed require separate CRTs.

Edit: Not sure why this is also replying to Air Raid.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Yeah, Fate Hax, Chaos Force, and Low 2-C will be controversial.

 

[Theuser789]

Or you could just give up as well

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Agree with fatehax removal, nuetral on the rest

 

[Air_Raid_Malocchio]

The issue is that the retcons made in the encyclopedia are Flynn's retcons. He was far from the only writer that set all the contradictions up. Archie Sonic was the wild west of creative differences before Sega got a stranglehold with mandates. What's objectively false is thinking anything was cohesive amongst several writers that did whatever the hell they wanted. However,Flynn was almost EXCLUSIVELY the primary writer from #160 onward. HE wrote the encyclopedia,HE tried to straighten up the mythos. HE made the retcons. Death of Author for one & not the other is blatant cherrypicking,for any of us. Don't worry,there's a massive response I'm cooking,just you wait.

 

[Foneybone1]

Ian being the only writter after he joined doesn't mean he operates with perfect consistency. That'd be like saying a manga is 100% consistent 100% of the time because it has one author. Applying DotA to WOG that doesn't match up with what he's shown or even other WOG statements is not cherrypicking, it's how DotA works.

Ian saying only experience matters past 7 emeralds isn't wrong because it contradicts the writers of the Penders era, it's wrong because it contradicts his own writing. I put it best in this thread.

 

[Air_Raid_Malocchio]

I know,I was there.

 

[Air_Raid_Malocchio]

So what now? I'm wrong for taking Author statements? I'm wrong for interpreting? I'm wrong for calling you out? I feel like my arguments amount to nothing.

 

[Air_Raid_Malocchio]

Ya know what? **** this. I was gonna post a bible twice the size of yours,effectively picking apart most of your argument,but it's not worth my time. There's a reason I left this community. Congrats on your CRT.I'm outta here for good.

 

[ElixirBlue]

... what?

 

[Foneybone1]

I'm...I'm sorry?

I'd be fine with discussing which WOG are legitamite or not, but the idea of taking either all or none of them just doesn't work.