Archie Sonic revisions that should have gone through a year ago.

[ShakeResounding]

I never said you didn't, or at least I didn't intend to.

I wasn't even arguing it's scaleable, I was arguing over the legitimacy of a Chaos Emerald feat and even stated it's nowhere on the profiles.

 

[Foneybone1]

I apologize, I was responding to PlozAlcachaz, I meant to quote his comment.

 

[ZeZo1337]

Bump

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Not being used currently =/= Can't discuss the topic. Why would they only be realized as Chaos Knuckles? The entire point of Knuckles was he became physically accelerated because of his exposure to the energies of a Chaos Emerald when he was not born yet.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

I have a question, why is Chaos Shadow more powerful than Super Shadow, when Chaos Shadow is simply Base Shadow removing his inhibitor rings? The fact that Super Sonic who is a rival to Super Shadow in stats did a lot better during his fight against Enerjak than Chaos Shadow did says something. Now before someone go ahead and mention that Enerjak was weakened during their fight, even before Locke's interference Enerjak still couldn't hurt Super Sonic. As for Chaos Shadow, his attack didn't even faze Enerjak at all!

 

[Foneybone1]

It's not being used because it wasn't accepted, making it irrelevant for me to talk about here. If you want to read why it wasn't accepted, you can read the thread but it doesn't matter to this one.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

This discussion partakes with the Low 2-C rating in general, does it not? You can't dismiss it just because it was rejected in the past, especially if the reasoning is arguably faulty.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I have a question, why is Chaos Shadow more powerful than Super Shadow, when Chaos Shadow is simply Base Shadow removing his inhibitor rings? The fact that Super Sonic who is a rival to Super Shadow in stats did a lot better during his fight against Enerjak than Chaos Shadow did says something. Now before someone go ahead and mention that Enerjak was weakened during their fight, even before Locke's interference Enerjak still couldn't hurt Super Sonic. As for Chaos Shadow, his attack didn't even faze Enerjak at all!

Because he has feats on that level.

 

[Foneybone1]

I'm calling into question the accepted reasons for Low 2C. Characters scaling from the Chaos Emeralds was rejected in the very thread that got Sonic his Low 2C rating, I can ignore rejected reasons because they have already been rejected; I'm not going to regurgitate Executor's reasons.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Eh frankly I'm with Foney on that. I'm perfectly fine with tier 4, but Low 2-C seems to be extremely fishy.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Yes, I saw it was rejected, but that doesn't mean it was contested. Literally there was just his opinion and nobody refuted it. Therefore, not all of the arguments have been heard regarding it. If you're choosing to ignore it, you're ignoring a supporting reason. That's counterintuitive to your own downgrade and makes us have to have another thread when it can be adequately resolved right here if you really disagree. Why would you not want to conclude this Low 2-C discussion and move on from it? This only serves to benefit you if this goes through Foney.

 

[Foneybone1]

Sheesh, I'll make one of these in a timely manner yet.

Naugus

I said the only time Sonic could do anything was when he caught Naugus off guard because that was the only time he did anything to him. I swapped out the "when" scan; my "off guard" scans were mixed with others and that one got put in with the other 8. What reason do you have to say Sonic held back? You can see Naugus' attack come in from Sonic's right, not underneath. (it's sort of both, not that it matters really) Naugus isn't knocked into the air, he lifts his foot, you can see his other leg on the ground. Not that any of that actually matters, for Sonic to scale to Naugus' tier he'd have to match his hax, which he can't do even with the sword. If Naugus and Sonic are equals in strength, it's a feat for Naugus, you can't scale Sonic with it. If a character punches Zatanna, they don't scale to her magic, it's the same thing here.

I don't need to prove he's amped outside the zone, because I never claimed that, I literally say I'm not claiming that in what you quoted. What I have been trying to explain is that the level of control Naugus exercises on the ZoS, whether in it or not, is clearly exclusive to that zone, or else he wouldn't need it. And he does need it, like I said before, if he could create an environment that empowers him, he wouldn't need to fuse the ZoS with the prime zone. He was even amped while attempting to fuse the zones, he very clearly can't manipulate zones without the ZoS' properties naturally. Again, he can't affect other zones even while he's empowered in the ZoS. I'm also fairly certain Executor said creating what we see in the ZoS is 4B due to us not having a timeframe, but I could be mistaken.

Feist

You can't dismiss Omega's statement as him being modest and then take Rouge's flattery literally. We see Omega not hurting Feist with his attack immediately after catching him off guard.

Mogul

I didn't imply Knuckles contradicted Mogul, I explained that what Knuckles said doesn't prove Mogul wrong. Knuckles is correct that the sword was boosting Mogul, but Mogul himself says he's not at full strength while he has the sword. Mighty questioning that doesn't matter; why would Mighty know how strong Mogul is? Last time they fought Mogul pretended to lose. My point stands.

If the attacks being similar is irrelevant, then why try correcting me on it? Sonic could be right that Mogul is weaker and still get stomped, because just like SSS1, Mogul doesn't need to be at full strength to beat a mass of characters in Sonic's tier.

The comic sure seems to think issue 164 proved Mogul stronger than Naugus. If they're both amped equally, it does work for scaling (or if the stronger amped character loses) The Sword of Acorns has tangible feats, the crown only has vague power boosting, I'm not arguing that the sword's amp is better, I'm saying it can be argued.

Al and Cal

How did I misinterpret what you said? You said the collars cut off special abilities rather than weaken physical strength, and I addressed that directly. The only "hasty conclusion" I came to was that the collars would have to physically restrict Scourge, Fiona, and everyone else to inhibit their speed; the collars restricting physical abilities is not headcanon. Haxless characters having collars is relevant, because we see haxless characters with collars, implying there's a reason for them to have them. You can't say the Chaos Emerald in Sonic Blast was restraining the flicky statue because "it's common sense" and then say me making the most basic assumption about the restraining collars is headcanon.

I didn't bring up their physical abilities, you brought up them getting beat by Geoffrey. You also gave a reason for their robot forms to be stronger, they revolved to fight each other. They're Low 2C physically because their robotic forms tank hits from each other, but their human forms are physically different, they inadvertently change upon regaining their powers and back again when losing them. Their human forms take hits from a restrained Geoffrey worse than their robot forms did from each other. Not only is Geoffrey bullying Al and Cal inconsistent with them laying out Sonic and Tails, but would be the only Low 2C AP feat Sonic's contemporaries would have, which means it's either an outlier for Geoffrey or an anti-feat for Al and Cal, showing them as physically weaker without hax (maybe the restraining collars had something to do with it, who knows, wouldn't want any headcanon slipping in or anything)

The problem with all of these is that the comic is clearly intending and showcasing these characters to be far beyond Sonic and co. I agree Sonic does get unquantifiable defense feats from most of them but upgrading characters' AP based off defense feats alone shouldn't happen, since realistically, they only survive for story reasons. For example, Superman has survived hits from things and beings so beyond his pay grade it's not even funny, but that doesn't mean characters in his pay grade, like Wonder Woman, scale to those things. Without Sonic displaying these levels of AP himself, I don't believe it should be any more than Sonic characters being incredibly sturdy/difficult to kill, but still able to be wounded.

 

[Foneybone1]

Did Al and Cal intend to hit Sonic and Tails or was it a stray shot from their fight? Because the former definitely makes it unquantifiable, going for the kill or otherwise. The later, which is what was repeated in the upgrade thread, still has the problem of them being hit by the explosion rather than the blast itself. The explosion at the end further proves the former is not Low 2C as they're better off afterwards, with it still falling to the same problem as the later regardless.

By AOE do you mean absence of evidence? (I usually read AOE as area of effect) either way, could you please elaborate?

 

[Foneybone1]

bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Eggman considers roboticizing Sally a victory, it also definetly counts as a loss for Sonic. Mecha Sally kicking him out of the Death Egg technically counts as beating Sonic in combat, but that's not what I meant by it.

1. Sonic would've destroyed Mecha Sally in combat. Sonic choosing not engage with Mecha Sally doesn't mean anyone won or lost.

Foney, you make it sound like "Oh! My opponent suicided all his stocks in Smash. That means I won the match!" Anyone who competes to beat their opponent, like Bakugo vs Todoroki and Todoroki chooses not to use his fire, Forfeiting the match, will tell you that's not a victory.

2. Both Sonic and Eggman were surprised by Sally's Robotization. Eggman's intention of winning was the destruction of the Kingdom of Acorn and Robotizing the planet. Which he didn't with Sonic's presence being an interference.

It's like Eggman aiming to win a million dollars at the slots only to walk out with $100.

3. Eggman described Sally's Robotization as a Consolation Prize. A Consolation Prize is a prize given to a competitor who narrowly fails to win or who finishes last.

Sonic's FateHax doesn't protect the people around him, as many have died in Sonic's presence. But only when they choose to sacrifice themselves.

 

[Foneybone1]

1. A victory is a victory. If Sonic lost because he didn't fight back, he still lost. I'm also fairly certain Mecha Sally does outperform Sonic in later issues, but I don't recal and it's irrelevant either way.

2. Eggman being surprised doesn't mean he doesn't consider it a win, which he clearly does when reading the following issues. Winning $100 at the slots is still winning, even if it's not what you planned on winning.

3. His main plan does fail, I'm not denying that. Roboticizing one mobian is a consolation prize when you plan on roboticizing all of them, but that one is Sally. Eggman, knowing how critical Sally is to the Freedom Fighters, considers this a win.

 

[ElixirBlue]

No, you, your personal opinion, is describing it as a win. Or, you are settling it as a win, to fit with the idea Sonic lost.

Sally's Robotization is a consequence of Sonic's victory. Sally's choice, by her own will, to sacrifice herself does not impact whether Sonic won in that Exchange or not. It's whether the day was saved or not, that matters.

Also, are you trying to twist the meaning of the word "Consolation Prize"? A consolation prize is something winners don't get.

 

[ElixirBlue]

1. A victory is a victory. If Sonic lost because he didn't fight back, he still lost. I'm also fairly certain Mecha Sally does outperform Sonic in later issues, but I don't recal and it's irrelevant either way.

"He lost because he choose to not fight or seek victory." That is a wrong interpretation on what victory means.

And no, Sonic is easily superior than Mecha Sally, even after the upgrades. He even describes that he has been holding back.

 

[Foneybone1]

1. Winning a fight is winnng a fight, I don't know what you're getting at.

2. Why would Sonic's fate hax be able to work against his enemies but not assist his allies? I mean, according to you the fate hax is why the chosen one prophecy exists, how is that supposed to work? Fate could have intervened so Sally stopped Eggman and wasn't roboticized because that's what Sonic wanted and even thought happened before Mecha Sally emerged. As the OP says, if fate is working is Sonic's favor, then things not pertaining to combat should also go his way, there's no reason this shouldn't be the case. If his fate hax can't protect others, then is everyone else surviving and helping to defeat Eggman over the years a fluke? If they can do it without fate hax why does Sonic need it? Sally's sacrifice was too keep Eggman from nuking the world's technology, and in doing so, gave herself to Eggman (weird way for me to word that) Sonic and his fate hax, which should be able to effect others given all it allegedly does, couldn't save her. Defeating Eggman at the cost of Sally can hardly be considered winning the day from Sonic's perspective.

3. Eggman's plans where foiled, I'm agreeing with that, but in foiling them, he was given Mecha Sally, and he considers that a victory. It's not twisting the definition of consolation prize to say that. Eggman tried to kill Elias in 234 and failed, but Sonic says Eggman beat them in 236, does that not count just because Eggman didn't due the main thing he planned?

 

[ElixirBlue]

1. A. It wasn't a fight. Mecha Sally holding Sonic by the throat isn't a fight. Where are you getting that?

B. We've already established that Sonic can Temporarily be beaten, as long as he wins in the end.

2. Sonic can't control the FateHax. He isn't even aware that it exists.

But after doing some research, I found out the correlation of why the FateHax was not be protecting Sonic's friends. Because they choose to die. To sacrifice themselves for the greater good.









__________________________________________

3. Also, and this is a weird thing for me too, somehow, the word "beat" or "beaten" doesn't seem to correlate with "defeat" or "victory" between Sonic and Eggman like a Traditional battle manga. They use it and treat it very loosely.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I may have made a mistake. My phone's internet explorer keeps crashing as I try to go into edit to reduce the size of the images.

 

[Foneybone1]

Didn't seek victory? So he didn't want Sally to not throw him off the Death Egg? He didn't immediately try to get back on the Death Egg? He didn't try to go save her in the same issue? He didn't try to save Sally later? That's a lot of victory he sought but didn't get. Since when has Sonic needed to actively "seek victory" for the fate hax to work anyway? It's not triggered by him fighting back. He doesn't fight back against Super Scourge (when he actually beats him anyway) He doesn't fight back against Master Mogul 2, and that's one of your evidence pieces; Sonic wasn't even awake for that fight, he couldn't "seek victory" if he wanted to. Isn't it supposed to be a passive thing that makes it so he always wins? Because that's what Mogul and Eggman seem to say.

He says he can't hold his punches with her. That's the literal opposite of holding back. Either way, like I said, it's irrelevant to his loss in 231.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Dude, you are Nitpicking at this point. Your arguments makes it sound like you are faulting the FateHax for letting tension exist.

He didn't want to be separated from Sally, sure, but that doesn't mean he lost. What did he lose? Sally? He didn't lose her. He got separated from her, just like how Sonic was separated from the Sword of Acorns that one time.

That FateHax doesn't Actively rewrite reality to make Sonic happy. That's not its function.

> He didn't try to save Sally later?

Ok, let me go through the listing.

1. Sonic fought Sally to contain her but he was still holding back and was mortified by her redesigned (As I was). He let Sally go because he was stunned by Antione getting blown up.

2. Sonic missed Mecha Sally at Furrville. Sally got away because Eggman ran from Sonic. Not every moment is defined by winning and losing.

3. Sonic never met Sally with the wolves but surprise surprise he saved the day while he was there.

4. As Sally was trying to Assassinate her brother, Sonic confronted her. But he let her go because he prioritized the safety of the village before Sally.

5. Sonic doesn't meet Sally again till the North Pole, where, he did win and Contained Sally, like he wanted.

As with Sonic's friends, the FateHax Doesn't seem to work if the characters choose to do something else. Like ending their lives or switching priorities.

> Since when has Sonic needed to actively "seek victory" for the fate hax to work anyway?

> He doesn't fight back against Super Scourge (when he actually beats him anyway)


__________________________________________________ > He doesn't fight back against Master Mogul 2

"Someone is contributing with a plan"


________________________________________________ Also, you keep harping on some "loss" in issue 231. Can you describe how Sally getting Robotized is considered a "loss" to Sonic losing the game? Using the Smash example, if someone takes a stock off of me, I don't consider it a loss since the game is not over. He takes a stock off me, I 3 stock him and win the game.

Poor Analogy but I don't see how this was a loss like Sonic fighting things that Intended to kill him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

" Dude, you are Nitpicking at this point. Your arguments makes it sound like you are faulting the FateHax for letting tension exist."

Either the tension exists or the fatehax does. Can't have both.

 

[ElixirBlue]

The Tension can exist. Tension doesn't go against "Sonic always wins in the end." The Endgame Arc ending in issue 50 is a prime example of that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The what?

 

[ElixirBlue]

The Tension or The Endgame Arc?

 

[Foneybone1]

Sorry this is so long, I'm combining my response to both comments into one.

Reply to the comment with several scans:

1. A. Sonic is trying to break free of her grip the entire time. Regardless, you're missing the point, he fails to save his girlfriend and gets kicked off the Death Egg against his will, and you're trying to say he didn't lose because he didn't fight back.

B. Sonic eventually winning is not established, it's an excuse to dismiss counterevidence. Nothing in Mogul or Eggman's dialogue implies they can defeat Sonic at all, even temporarily. Sonic also doesn't eventually win in this instance, he never saves Sally, and in at least one of Silver's pasts, Sally ends up killing him. (it's actually implied to be all of them, but that detail is neither here nor there)

2. What did I say that made you think I think Sonic can control his fate hax? I'm not saying Sonic is actively using fate hax to do what he wants, I'm saying, if the fate hax is real, it should make things he wants to happen happen, there's no reason for it to be restricted to combat.

You arguing that Sonic has to actively want to win in order for the fate hax to work comes closer to saying Sonic controls it than anything I said. It also comes back around to: if Sonic will win a fight no matter what because he wants to, then why can't he save people even if he actively tries to save them just because they "want" to die?

3. The way Sonic and Eggman use beat, defeat, victory, and so on is not problematic for me. It's perfectly consitant with what I say in the OP: Sonic doesn't have fate hax and can lose, and Eggman, in his madness, creates a meta excuse for why he can't beat Sonic, even contradicting himself like you showed. He's crazy and is making excuses, but stops once he gets the win he needed.

Reply to the comment with two scans:

How is it nitpicking for me to directly respond to your point with relevant counterexamples? Like Cal said, fate hax don't have a sense of dramatic writing, either it works or it doesn't. If Sonic has a power to always win and he doesn't always win, that's not the power letting tension happen, that's evidence that maybe Sonic doesn't actually have that power. Especially when the two statements about that power are full of holes.

He didn't lose Sally? Did we read the same comic? Sally was turned into a weapon for Eggman, you can't downplay that to just being seperated.

The fate hax are cited as rewriting reality (actually the ring aura, but whatever) to help Sonic, and based on Eggman's dialogue, there's no reason the fate hax would only help in combat.

What makes you think Sonic's holding back when he says himself he can't pull his punches?

Listing events doesn't mean Sonic wasn't trying to get Sally back, you're kidding yourself if you think he wasn't. Silver incapacitating Sally is not the same as Sonic saving her, especially given that couldn't have happened in the timelines before Silver came.

If the fate hax doesn't work when someone chooses to do something else, how does it work at all? Sonic's enemies don't choose to lose. Others helping Sonic achieve unlikely victory is the cornerstone of the plot convenience that fuels his fate hax. How many times has Sonic only won due to help from others? The fate hax needs to be able to affect others for it to function the way it's claimed to. It makes no sense for it to work against Sonic's enemies but not help his allies. Characters sacrificing themself shouldn't matter any more than Sonic's opponents not wanting to lose.

I don't know what those scans are supposed to prove. Everyone tries to fight Scourge at first, but Sonic doesn't fight to defeat him, and he doesn't fight back or plan anything against Mogul, he's knocked out.

I'm "harping" on his loss in 231 because you're pretending he didn't lose. It doesn't matter if you think Eggman won anything, it doesn't even matter if I think Eggman won anything, what matters is Eggman thinks he won one over Sonic, which he rightfully does. From Eggman's perspective, he has only gained in 225-231's events (he does literally lose the Chaos Emerald, but he doesn't consider that a loss) and you're trying to say he lost just because his original plan didn't work the way he planned. Eggman failed his original plan but still got something in the form of Mecha Sally, hence her being a consolation prize, but he's still the only one who gained anything from the ordeal. He took Sally away from the Freedom Fighters, from Sonic; I don't know what to tell you if you don't consider that a loss.

In your first Smash analogy, someone SDs all their stocks, that doesn't mean they didn't lose, they're still the loser on the result screen. According to your second, Sonic and Eggman have never lost nor won before because "the game" is still going, and like I've said, Sonic has lost "the game" 3 times, hence Silver.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Oh. My. *******. God.

I spent an hour typing up my response and I click on topics from my touch screen and everything I texted went away.

Look, give me a break to type it again.

 

[Foneybone1]

On my phone I'll type replies in my notes app to mitigate that, but sometimes it won't autosave and I lose it anyway. It sucks, but on the bright side, I likely wouldn't have been able to make a full reply to it today anyway.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I stepped away from this for a while because of college, so why are there arguments about Mecha Sally now lol

 

[Foneybone1]

Elixir and I started a conversation on another thread that turned into...something.

 

[AwkguyDB]

bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Basically, the conversation turned into "is the FateHax real or not?"

I say yes, Foney says no. While there's no concrete statement giving the FateHax a name or exactly what kind of power it truly is, Fate or Plot, the story/narrative Alludes that it does exist.

Then the conversation devolved into describing each story element that has ever happened in Archie Sonic, with Foney stating any advantage someone has on Sonic is considered a loss. Basically saying, any advantages anyone has against Sonic disproves the FateHax of "Sonic always wins in the end".

Which isn't true. Advantages =/= Having a loss.

 

[Graal009]

Yes, you, ElixirBlue, are right, while, Fonei, wrong. Fonei continues to insist that the loss of his friends is an argument against Fate Hax, but that is precisely his advantage. If Sally wasn't the one to sacrifice, it would be Sonic. Understand this, Fonei, Sonic is the one who owns Fate Hax, not Sally or anyone else, and he is the one who is "invincible". He who possesses the chaos energy of the billionth ring, Fate Hax is a mystical aura around Sonic, not the others. Fate Hax is not perfect, and what you use as an example can be used for literally any disadvantage and loss that Sonic had. Honestly, you continue to use a semantic approach, when in fact the "consolation prize" already explains all of your thesis that works in theory, but in practice it doesn't. Now talking about the topic of Chaos Force, well, being deleted is quite different from being destroyed. The Chaos Force has been erased from time, space, the Multiverse, causality. This has no level, it's like you say that Kumagawa cannot delete beings of higher tier just because he has at least a city block level. In addition, it was not only the metafictional existence that was affected, it was the fictional existence as well, because the absence of echidnas characters like Enerjak, Aurora and that entire clan influences the direction of the events that took place. The emeralds were not affected, but the transcendent and metaphysical plane that is the purest and most real form of chaotic energy was. And this is just conceptual manipulation/resistance to it on an insane level

 

[ElixirBlue]

Honestly, when I'm not looking for a job and have the time, I should try my hand at writing a blog detailing (my thoughts on it) the nature of the FateHax and all the instances of discourse.

Maybe it would be easier to get a giant board with red strings and pins.

 

[Foneybone1]

That's not at all my argument, but getting to the actual point here:

The problem is you're starting with the assumption that the fate hax are real and trying to make it fit the comic's narrative when you need to first look at what Mogul and Eggman say about them and see if it holds up to what we see in the comic. Because if Eggman and Mogul are wrong, there's no reason to assume Sonic has fate hax, no matter what plot convenience happens. Eggman believes anyone can have fate hax if they have enough chaos energy, even believing he had fate hax himself at a point. This is inarguably incorrect, and should be the end of discussion in regard to Eggman's statement; if the entire basis for his idea is wrong, why consider it at all?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Because it's not wrong.

I think you're forgetting that the same Eggman who said prime sonic always wins and he can't beat him also killed a Sonic, so he has an idea of what winning and losing is.

 

[Foneybone1]

That's it? Just, "it's not wrong,"? No reason, explanation, or anything? He's just right, because?

This is also the same Eggman who said himself ha has beaten Sonic before, and is said to have "reasoned" himself back to sanity, maybe he's not all there.

 

[Theuser789]

Just going to post this little thing our friend here said about the wikia and this thread, also pretty bold saying you are almost certain you are "right"

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterR...c_or/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share