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Archie Sonic revisions that should have gone through a year ago.

Jeez, this took long enough.

Do you agree that Mogul's sixth sense is a power he only has in his master form as well, or only in its change of application?

The Chaos Emeralds

Throughout the series, having multiple emeralds results in more power than one. We've only seen multiple emeralds fused together twice, each with different methods, whatever Feist's method was, we know he altered the emeralds by removing secondary effects. This is not proof that they are the same power, but rather proof that he can alter them.

All seven post harmony emeralds being required for a super transformation and the 14 pre harmony emerald strong Master Emerald being more powerful than all seven post harmony emeralds are blatant problems that only exist with the belief that the emeralds are thousands of times stronger and make it very evident that they aren't.

I acknowledged Ian's statement potentially presents issues, but I also mentioned that his explanation is a possible reflection of in-comic dialogue and that his answer, when removed from this explanation, is reflected in his writing.

The Sword of Acorns

The encyclopedia's take is…weird. It could be seen as a retcon of Sonic being shown as less proficient than Max, but I don't know why that would be necessary. It could mean that the sword can be utilized by basically anyone, which we kind of see when Sonic accidentally uses its healing ability, but the phrasing "master-level techniques" implies more than that.

Power Rings

It's not stated yes, but it's sort of half implied, it being a last resort, the ring's description and Nate utilization of rings for different uses. This isn't an idea I claim as being definitive, only a possibility; it's also not the crux of my argument.

It seems unreasonable for a single power ring to be able to BFR to a different zone when warp rings can't do so without being charged with energy. It would also make much more sense for Nate to knock Naugus back through the already open portal than create a second one. Naugus getting knocked back by Nate is consistent with other high-tier characters being taken off guard, and the portal to the ZoS would close without him to keep it open.

The only thing that's required for the events we see to happen is Nate blast Naugus back with a power ring, enhanced or otherwise.

Power Null Resistance

Yes, Merlin thinks Sonic shouldn't have had access, but Finitevus doesn't question how he did, probably because he actively lets Sonic use it in 183.

Scourge being similar to Sonic shouldn't matter since this nullification is applied to the ring aura, lest Scourge present a plethora of problems.

Immortality

Accelerated healing isn't type 3 immortality. He'd have to heal from a mortal wound, which the ring aura technically did do in Mecha Madness, but not by itself. The aura retains his life force, to a degree, it kept him from being corrupted, but not from dying. Sonic Live is debatably not canon (Mobius Encyclopedia doesn't consider it canon, but I don't know if that's just a them thing) but past that, Sonic wasn't vaporized, it's explained an electrical storm caused the human's machine to randomly teleport people through dimensions, this is why Sonic ended up in the in-between zone. There also is no statement saying Sonic was vaporized, like I said in the OP, that's a quote from the Sonic News Network.

Light and Dark Mobius are possible futures yes, but they are also separate zones. The Sonic of Silver's past is not an alternate Sonic, it's the prime Sonic, Silver is from the prime Mobius, his past is Sonic's future. If Sonic didn't die in Silver's past, his story doesn't happen. If you want to get super technical, the actual story we read in the comics is an "alternate" timeline, because Silver went back in time and changed things. The only "unaltered" timeline is the one without Silver, where Sonic dies, leading to Silver's present.

The Mephiles death should not be ignored, because it happened. We're told 06 happened and including it doesn't create any problems. I haven't played Chronicles so I can't say for sure, but the encyclopedia's page for the Nocturnus Clan makes it out as if the plot of Chronicles hasn't happened yet, with them not yet escaping the Twilight Cage.

Post-SGW Chaos

I understand Chaos can control the world's oceans due to being a water god, but just like benders in Avatar, controlling water doesn't necessarily mean you're physically that strong. The fight with the Dark Guardian took place underwater so Chaos could utilize the ocean to fight, he needs to show he can utilize that strength himself. (unless he has, but again I didn't look into this one)
 
In attempt to keep things moving on a topic this important, for this bump I'll respond to the 2C arguments Shake brought up.

Naugus

I didn't mean to imply Sonic could not cause harm to Naugus at all, I even provided a scan of him doing so. Naugus' power comes from his hax, he is not a physical fighter, hence why he runs away in 53 after his staff is broken. For someone to scale to his teir they would need to match his hax, which Sonic can't do, even with the Sword of Light. Elias saying Naugus is too strong right after they both got beaten in a fight seems pertinent to scaling. He also doesn't seem to be hurt in that scan from FCBD5, "BAH" is usually an expression of annoyance more than pain.

Developing is not the same as creating, this, along with basically everything else is already talked about in the OP, particularly before and after what you quoted. For clarification though, I did not mean to say Naugus is empowered by the ZoS while outside of it, only that, even while it was a bubble in spacetime, his control over it is due to the zone's natural properties in addition to it empowering him while inside.

Feist

Saying Omega was being modest to discredit what is probably the most inconsequential scan in my entire post is interesting, especially when the important part was right before that.

Mogul

The scan I showed immediately before the quote you erroneously tried to claim was a lie has Mogul himself saying he's not at full power while using the sword. He would know better if he's at full strength than Knuckles, who thought Mogul was easily defeated by the Chaotix in Mecha Madness.

I said the attacks were similar, which they are. Additionally, him using an omnidirectional blast to take out 9 characters makes it more impressive than failing to take out just Sonic with a concentrated one.

They were both amped, Naugus with the arguably better amp too, and Mogul basically stomps him. Mogul being superior isn't necessary to show he's beyond Sonic, but are you trying to say Mogul isn't superior to Naugus or that I should have used a different scan?

Al and Cal

The flooring is enveloped? How are you certain they weren't just knocked off? The zone has no laws of physics and as such the visuals of the zone don't stay consistent for more than two panels. How are you determining their proximity to the explosion to say they took low 2C damage? The most that can be said about this feat is that it's unquantifiable.

The collars do restrict physical abilities, Scourge's speed and agility are natural abilities, what would be the point of putting collars of characters without hax if they didn't restrict physical abilities? Al and Cal's power is almost exclusively hax based, we don't know how hardy their human-like forms are, but it's very evident they are weak. Their whole physiology changes when their power is restricted. Scaling characters to others, especially ones that rely on hax while they have restraining collars is ridiculous.
 
Elias has no battle experience to be a reliable opinion on scaling. To Elias, Naugus is one of the most powerful fighters he has ever seen, while to Sonic, Naugus is just another opponent.
 
No battle experience? He was raised by the Brotherhood of Guardians and went on adventures for years. He was also trained by Geoffry St John and fights Amadeus Prower, a renound general.
 
Amadeus and Elias did one clash, admittedly close to equal reactionary timed. Considering that previous Generals of the Royal Acorn government were either on par or were better soldiers than Amadeus, and considering those Generals were defeated by SWATbots, years before the COMbots, That level of strength is weak! to that current time Sonic.

Antione could beat Amadeus.
 
They definitely don't only clash once (edit: I took this to mean they only clashed their swords once, I neglected to realize you could have meant fought once) but dueling skill doesn't factor in a lot when you're being overwhelmed by SWATbots.

Antione probably could, he's not a useless pushover (later in the comic anyway)

Not that any of this discredits anything, Elias fights Naugus whith his weakness and loses, he then tells Sonic, who also just got beat by Naugus, that he is too strong, that is relevant for scaling.
 
Naugus

"I didn't mean to imply Sonic could not cause harm to Naugus at all, I even provided a scan of him doing so. Naugus' power comes from his hax, he is not a physical fighter, hence why he runs away in 53 after his staff is broken. For someone to scale to his teir they would need to match his hax, which Sonic can't do, even with the Sword of Light. Elias saying Naugus is too strong right after they both got beaten in a fight seems pertinent to scaling. He also doesn't seem to be hurt in that scan from FCBD5, "BAH" is usually an expression of annoyance more than pain."

You tried to imply he could only harm him by getting the jump on him, check your example section for higher tiers and you hyperlinked it under "when". I would like to note that Naugus can physically hold back people with his staff. So yeah, he can be physically fighting people, but I get what you mean. The problem here though is that Naugus' abilities are notably versatile and can keep Sonic at bay for rather obvious reasons. Sonic was holding back literally every attack thrown at him with the Sword of Light, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Check the issue yourself. The only instance of him getting blown back was an attack that physically hit Sonic from underneath. I've already explained why "too strong" can be used in conjunction for his abilities being too much to handle, in general. He screams "BAH" after being knocked back by Sonic and sent into the air. Even staggering someone is enough to let you scale to them.

"Developing is not the same as creating, this, along with basically everything else is already talked about in the OP, particularly before and after what you quoted. For clarification though, I did not mean to say Naugus is empowered by the ZoS while outside of it, only that, even while it was a bubble in spacetime, his control over it is due to the zone's natural properties in addition to it empowering him while inside."

You know what the problem here is though? The text literally mentions it was mere bubble of space-time before Naugus found it. So in this context, he would be creating everything like the planets, stars, and nebulae visibly present afterward, along with expanding the space-time. This particular scan wasn't in the OP, it shows that he did all of that before actually entering the Zone of Silence, that's why I brought it up. Unless you can genuinely prove he'd be amped when shaping it outside of the structure, then it's still valid. He's notably amped when he's in it, that's the context of the scans.

Feist

"Saying Omega was being modest to discredit what is probably the most inconsequential scan in my entire post is interesting, especially when the important part was right before that."

Look at the scan you sent. Rouge literally says, "And you put quite the hurting on Feist. Nice work, big boy." This quite literally implies that Omega did hurt him.

Mogul

"The scan I showed immediately before the quote you erroneously tried to claim was a lie has Mogul himself saying he's not at full power while using the sword. He would know better if he's at full strength than Knuckles, who thought Mogul was easily defeated by the Chaotix in Mecha Madness."

Indeed, Mogul does state he's not at his full power, however Mighty literally questions this exact same thing with Knuckles noting the sword was still amping him. You're treating it as if Knuckles is somehow contradicting what Mogul is saying here when he isn't, the point still stands.

"I said the attacks were similar, which they are. Additionally, him using an omnidirectional blast to take out 9 characters makes it more impressive than failing to take out just Sonic with a concentrated one."

Similarity is irrelevant in the matter. Additionally, if Sonic states he was weaker yet Mogul proceeds to blast away nearly a dozen characters despite hik supposed to be doing worse, then it makes Sonic's judgement call wrong. And even if we were to say Mogul is weaker, how does that drop him anywhere below Low 2-C anyways? And if Sonic and co. didn't due from the blast, they would simply downscale regardless.

"They were both amped, Naugus with the arguably better amp too, and Mogul basically stomps him. Mogul being superior isn't necessary to show he's beyond Sonic, but are you trying to say Mogul isn't superior to Naugus or that I should have used a different scan?"

Yes, I said they were both amped, that's why the feat isn't usable for your argument. Can you give an actual reason for Naugus receiving a better amp, or is this conjecture? And I'm not saying Mogul can't be above Naugus, I'm saying your scan doesn't prove it and you just acknowledged the reason as to why.

Al & Cal

"The collars do restrict physical abilities, Scourge's speed and agility are natural abilities, what would be the point of putting collars of characters without hax if they didn't restrict physical abilities? Al and Cal's power is almost exclusively hax based, we don't know how hardy their human-like forms are, but it's very evident they are weak. Their whole physiology changes when their power is restricted. Scaling characters to others, especially ones that rely on hax while they have restraining collars is ridiculous."

You're misinterpreting what I said. I'm talking about their AP, and you're committing a hasty generalization assuming that everything else is automatically restricted just because they restricted Scourge's natural speed. Speed Reduction =/= Strength Reduction. Contextually, you gotta realize that Scourge very much leans on his speed to help him overwhelm people and for other abilities. Restricting his speed completely prevents that and puts him on equal footing with everybody else. As for what the collars would do, that is mostly ambiguous since they don't have a lot of specifications for them. There are other versions of them that do things like force you to comply, but the idea of haxless characters is pretty much irrelevant when we should go with what's supplied by the narrative. Arguing more applications is the definition of a headcanon and has no place in debating.

I don't see why you're bringing this up. The profile defines why they are Low 2-C physically, especially since they can trade blows with one another. Why would their robot forms be stronger at all? That's an unfounded assumption, especially since context implies they only took those forms due to their mistrust and war. The onus is on you to prove them being weaker. Their physiology changing would just be in reference that their human forms are their natural forms, so the collars prevent them from transforming into their robotic forms as it can nullify abilities like that. Considering we've outlined the issues with both your arguments here, there's nothing absurd about it.
 
Al and Cal were impressed that Sonic and Tails survived said blast proving that the degree of durability that Sonic and Tails has was something they considered noteworthy as they survived the blast.Also the blast they survived was intended to kill as they viewed Sonic and Tails as intruders.If that's not enough when Al and Cal turned on each other and blasted each other Tails and Sonic survived the blast again,considering Al and Cal casually have control over a Low 2-C realm and in this instance they're channeling their power in a serious manner it would obviously be Low 2-C again Al and Cal have an AP of Low 2-C due to controlling an entire universe which would thusly scale to his AP and attacks.Using the logic that the blast isn't Low 2-C especially when Al and Cal wanted him dead will change a lot of profiles and power scaling in general on the wiki.Also most of the argument is an AOE fallacy.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wL5mUnY98hE/Vtp1Kc4vrDI/AAAAAAAAKmI/SIqh-j53tPA/s1600-Ic42/RCO018.jpg
 
Tfw the OP still hasn't even addressed all of the Low 2-C arguments as well like Knuckles scaling to the Chaos Emeralds before the fusion.
 
Something you also never mentioned is thar a single Chaos Emerald can create and entire Zone.

>http://i.imgur.com/MmRQjyA.jpg

Not to mention Knux's power has been descirbed to be equivalent to the power of a Chaos Emerald in the Encylopedia and many times in the comics.As well as the fact that he's been exposed to Chaos Energy at birth from an emerald.

>https://media.discordapp.net/attach...Of_The_Chaos_Emerald.jpg?width=296&height=450

>https://media.discordapp.net/attach...5686176555061/latest.png?width=290&height=451

Chaos Energy was stated to be tho most powerful thing in the verse as stated in Dark Mobius and the only thing that can over power it is more Chaos Energy which would logically be above Al and Cal's power.Afterall Chaos Energy can create entire Zones which is comparable to their feat.
 
Isn't Knuckles being like, some sort of physical god due to the fact that he's born with a Chaos Emerald's power means that people like Sally and Bunnie shouldn't come anywhere close to scaling to him?
 
The real cal howard said:
Isn't Knuckles being like, some sort of physical god due to the fact that he's born with a Chaos Emerald's power means that people like Sally and Bunnie shouldn't come anywhere close to scaling to him?
Click to expand...
Sally can hold her own against Sonic, who can beat Knuckles, but she can't scale to Knuckles? Bunnie was also said to be on even footing with Sonic somewhere iirc.
 
No.not at all.It just means he's empowered and can utlize chaos energy.The god stuff is for Aurora,Enerjak and the Ancient Walkers.Afterall the base cast constantly scale to this degree of power that Knux has and scale to fighting him.
 
No, it just means he has really good usage of Chaos Energy as well. Knuckles can fight evenly with Sonic, Sonic fights evenly with Bunnie and Sally holds her own against him. There is no reason why they shouldn't scale to Knuckles.
 
If Knuckles' entire existence and power (it's definitely not talking about just being able to harness Chaos Energy) is supposed to be some giant anomaly, it makes no sense for everyone and their mother to scale to him.

Actually, why is that scan up above treated as a Low 2-C feat? It's outright said in the very same panel that it's the same type of zone as in the Sonic games, as opposed to the ones we see later in the comics. And unless you're saying Green Hill Zone is a universe...
 
A giant anomaly for the Echidnas, Cal. It was a big deal for the Echidnas. And unless you wanna argue there's such a giant disparity between Sonic & Knuckles compared to someone like Tails, they're all in a comparable level. Some are obviously stronger than others, but they're all in the same ballpark.

Not sure what scan you're referring to.
 
He compares the destruction of the zone, not the actual power of it unless you think 1 Chaos Emerald = 7 Chaos Emeralds. And Sonic trying to leave would legit be because he can't survive the aftermath of the universe collapsing, which is no oxygen, nothingness, etc.
 
The Chaos Emerald didn't even cause the collapse. That statue thingy did after it awoke...without the Emerald in its head.
 
What. The Chaos Emerald was literally supporting the zone. The second it got pulled out, the zone started collapsing.
 
Of course the Emerald wasn't in the head. The Chaos Emerald being removed was the thing that caused the collapse of the Zone in the first place
 
ShakeResounding said:
Of course the Emerald wasn't in the head. The Chaos Emerald being removed was the thing that caused the collapse of the Zone in the first place
Click to expand...
Read above
 
The power of the Emerald was making the Flicky thing stay dormant irregardless if it for some reason isn't the Emerald. That's Low 2-C either way you slice it lol.
 
The power of the Emerald was making the Flicky thing stay dormant irregardless if it for some reason isn't the Emerald. That's Low 2-C either way you slice it lol.

Are you legitimately telling me that keeping something asleep is the same as being as strong as something? Also please tell me if I'm being woooshed I'm bad at that lol

Even if the Emerald caused it, that's the textbook definition of a chain reaction.
 
How is sealing something so it can't merely flap to cause a transdimensional reality collapse not being as strong as it?

Why would it be a chain reaction? You think it's comparable to something like this?
 
We also currently don't even have Knuckles having the power of a Chaos Emerald on his profile. Low 2-C was there without it
 
Because it's job is to keep the Emerald safe so it not being in its safe place wakes it up. It's never said that the Emerald is sealing it, and even if it was, that'd be hax at best. This is incredibly common across fiction. That's like saying grapes are 9-B in Pan's Labyrinth because eating just one causes the Pale Man to awaken.

And if the Emerald caused it instead of the idol, yes, I would think it's something like that. With a bit of the idol scene from Indiana Jones.
 
But the Chaos Emerald is literally keeping it's power at bay.

Also even if the feat wasn't valid, a Chaos Emerald still made a Low 2-C universe while halved.
 
Never said.

And which feat was that? The one I was linked about universe creation is like, tier 7 due to clarification in the very same panel.

Btw what ever happened to the Golden Mean? What Superman is currently under so he doesn't scale to his highest feats? Cuz I'm certain Archie ain't exactly going all Gurren Lagann on us and his lower extremes are just as prevalent.

Furthermore aren't all zones not created equal? That previous scan said that one zone was only the size as one from canon. Why do they all default to universal+ scope now? When it's obvious it's obvious (for example the Sonic Knux clash), but when it's not?
 
I figured common sense doesn't need to be said. Why else did it start to nuke the universe after the Chaos Emerald was taken out of it's head?

Not that one but I don't wanna get the scan right now since I'm about to sleep.

Superman is a character who's been around before your great grandfather ever thought about having your grandfather, and Sonic is a character that your dad loved when he was a hipster in high school. The amount of feats in general pale by comparison, and scaling Superman to his highest feats in turn makes dozens of other characters scale. and I can tell you the Golden Mean wouldn't be back to 4-B

They all default to Universal+ because that's what a zone has generally been treated unless there was something either stating or showing otherwise. It's been that way in the CosmIc Interstate adventures, it's been that way in Super Sonic vs Hyper Knuckles, and Zonic the Zone Cop's literal job and existence is to observe and watch over zones that are described to be alternate or divergent timelines.
 
I haven't read everything yet, but I'm fairly certain I did mention all the Low 2C arguments.

Base characters, including Knuckles, scaling from Chaos Emeralds was not accepted on the Low 2C thread, and isn't used as justification. Executor also explained that Knuckles' "living Chaos Emerald" powers are only truly realized while Chaos Knuckles.
 
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