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Because why not: Master Mogul vs True Enerjak

Enerjak via better feats, and I'm also sure he was stated to be canonically superior. For example, he has better mindhax such as when he corrupted Chaos Knuckles, meanwhile a weaker Hyper Knuckles resists Master Mogul's mindhax. This was just the avatars too, True Enerjak should be even better than this. The combined powers of The Ancient Walkers and Aurora also couldn't destroy him. Also is notable to mention that Enerjak actually defeated Super Sonic in Dark Mobius.
 
When you say "second Master Mogul" you mean the one from issues 149 and 150 correct?

If so, Mogul wins based on the fact he effectively already has in canon. True Enerjak is scattered throughout the Chaos Force and Mogul took complete control over the Chaos Force, meaning he beats Enerjak by default.

Mogul 10/10
 
Yeah, True Enerjak Is On Par With Or Debated Even Stronger Than Super Sonic, True Enerjak >= Super Sonic (Enerjak Arc) >>> Enerjak (Knuckles) > Titan Tails > Master/Chaos Mogul > Super Sonic > Chaos Knuckles > Enerjak (Dimitri) > Hyper Knuckles > Aurora > Ancient Walkers
 
TheImagineBreaker121212 said:
True Enerjak >= Super Sonic (Enerjak Arc) >>> Enerjak (Knuckles) > Titan Tails > Master/Chaos Mogul > Super Sonic > Chaos Knuckles > Enerjak (Dimitri) > Hyper Knuckles > Aurora > Ancient Walkers
Click to expand...
While I take issue with basically this entire hierarchy, to keep it topical, what's the reasoning for Mogul, who has full control over the entirety of the chaos force, to be below True Enerjak, a being who exists within said chaos force?
 
While I take issue with basically this entire hierarchy, to keep it topical, what's the reasoning for Mogul, who has full control over the entirety of the chaos force, to be below True Enerjak, a being who exists within said chaos force?

Because Knuckles as the host was above Mogul, Period, Super Sonic Utilizes Chaos Energy From pre Genesis, but outright goes head to head with Mogul and wins. Same applies for enerjak
 
TheImagineBreaker121212 said:
Because Knuckles as the host was above Mogul, Period, Super Sonic Utilizes Chaos Energy From pre Genesis, but outright goes head to head with Mogul and wins. Same applies for enerjak
Click to expand...
Enerjak Knuckles is above Mogul based on what? Super Sonic was not strong enough to beat Mogul alone, it took him, Knuckles, Tails, and the use of a chaos siphon to defeat him. Saying he went head to head with Mogul and won is technically true, but it grossly misrepresents what happened.

Not that any of that matters, because we're not talking about Mogul from issue 56, we're talking about Mogul from 149 and 150. Mogul had become one with and took full control of the chaos force, True Enerjak exists within the chaos force, this means Mogul not only wins via feats, statements, and powerscaling, but he actually already has won in canon.
 
Enerjak Knuckles is above Mogul based on what? Super Sonic was not strong enough to beat Mogul alone, it took him, Knuckles, Tails, and the use of a chaos siphon to defeat him. Saying he went head to head with Mogul and won is technically true, but it grossly misrepresents what happened.

Not that any of that matters, because we're not talking about Mogul from issue 56, we're talking about Mogul from 149 and 150. Mogul had become one with and took full control of the chaos force, True Enerjak exists within the chaos force, this means Mogul not only wins via feats, statements, and powerscaling, but he actually already has won in canon.


A Very Young And Inexperienced Super Sonic And they were all equally manhandling Mogul, Tails Just happened to get representation, it's absolutely consistent that Sonic > Tails. The Second Time, When Mogul Went To Take Enerjaks Power, Use The Master Emerald, Become a multiversal threat, Titan Tails Beat Him, Super Sonic In the Enerjak Arc Can Beat That.

No, That is not how it works, Mogul Could Use How Much Power Of Chaos He Wants, Knuckles And Sonic Absolutely Embody It, Sonic From Eggman And Mogul, And Knuckles From Finiteus And Dimitri, Their Super forms is way stronger than how they were before, Super Sonic destroyed the Chaos Force, And Enerjak (Knuckles) is on relatative terms of that power, Super Sonic is still stronger, But True Enerjak May Definitely Be Stronger Than Super Sonic, But While I have my doubts on that, they both still Leave Mogul In The Dust.

It doesn't misinterpretate anything.
 
TheImagineBreaker121212 said:
A Very Young And Inexperienced Super Sonic And they were all equally manhandling Mogul, Tails Just happened to get representation, it's absolutely consistent that Sonic > Tails. The Second Time, When Mogul Went To Take Enerjaks Power, Use The Master Emerald, Become a multiversal threat, Titan Tails Beat Him, Super Sonic In the Enerjak Arc Can Beat That.

No, That is not how it works, Mogul Could Use How Much Power Of Chaos He Wants, Knuckles And Sonic Absolutely Embody It, Sonic From Eggman And Mogul, And Knuckles From Finiteus And Dimitri, Their Super forms is way stronger than how they were before, Super Sonic destroyed the Chaos Force, And Enerjak (Knuckles) is on relatative terms of that power, Super Sonic is still stronger, But True Enerjak May Definitely Be Stronger Than Super Sonic, But While I have my doubts on that, they both still Leave Mogul In The Dust.

It doesn't misinterpretate anything.
Click to expand...
It's very clear from the fight that it took the combined efforts of all three. Trying to claim Sonic could have won alone is ridiculous. Enerjak and the Master Emerald played no role in Master Mogul's second appearance, he absorbed Chaos Knuckles' power before taking full control of the chaos force. Issue 56 Mogul is not the same as 149 Mogul.

Enerjak Knuckles (like Mogul and by extension Demitri) is stronger than Super Sonic, they were only able to fight evenly due to Knuckles being weakened before they fought.

Again, Mogul not only had full control of the chaos force, he was the chaos force. True Enerjak is contained within the chaos force, to claim Enerjak is stronger is to claim the part is greater than the whole.

Personally, I consider Sonic destroying the chaos force as a ridiculous outlier at best and complete nonsense at worst, but that's neither here nor there.

Edit: I know no one is going to read this but Turbo Tails is actually stated to be stronger than Super Sonic. That doesn't really affect much, it's just another thing you're wrong about.
 
It's very clear from the fight that it took the combined efforts of all three. Trying to claim Sonc could have won alone is ridiculous. Enerjak and the Master Emerald played no role in Master Mogul's second apearence, he absorbed Chaos Knuckles' power before taking full control of the chaos force. Issue 56 Mogul is not the same as 149 Mogul.

Enerjak Knuckles (like Mogul and by extention Demitri) is stronger than Super Sonic, they where only able to fight evenly due to Knuckles being weakened before they fought.

Again, Mogul not only had full control of the chaos force, he was the chaos force. True Enerjak is contained within the chaos force, to claim Enerjak is stronger is to claim the part is greater than the whole.

Personally, I consider Sonic destroying the chaos force as an ridiculous outlier at best and complete nonsense at worst, but that's niether here nor there.

"Trying to claim Super Sonic Could have won alone is ridiculous" if you are talking about The Master Mogul Arc, no he cannot, I never even implied that, I simply said Super Sonic From The Enerjak Reborn Arc is way Stronger Than his Younger Variation And Would Manhandle The Mammoth Mogul That Titan Tails Mid-Diffed. That Residue Power + Chaos Knuckles = Need For Titan Tails

No Bro, that's not it, Super Sonic > Enerjak (Knuckles) > Mogul > Enerjak (Dimitri), Enerjak Was Restored Back To Full Power During His Fight With Super Sonic, Dr.Finiteus Used Dark Magic to make him immune/heavily resistant towards Super Sonics Chaos Aura, Super Sonic revealed he could casually take down enerjak in that moments pace, but why would he? Knuckles is in their, Super Sonic would have to get passed Knuckles to beat Enerjak, Super Sonic was toying around And was really hesistant In how he dealt with Enerjak (Knuckles), Enerjak Even Said "Huh, so you are planning to use my own power against me?" Super Sonic And True Enerjak Being Stronger Is Just The Facts, Knuckles And Sonic have been Stated way too many times to be the embodiment of the energy. And they can destroy it on the physical level.

Ever heard of that one character that can surpass what he's contained in? Like Erazor Djiin From Sonic And The Secret Rings, It's the same here......

Sonic had Many Cosmic Level Feats And Scaling Before The Feat Though, not bustin' ya chops but you would need to get a crap ton of evidence for that since Sonic Has Statements Of Being Top Tier In the chaos force.
 
TheImagineBreaker121212 said:
No Bro, that's not it, Super Sonic > Enerjak (Knuckles) > Mogul > Enerjak (Dimitri), Enerjak Was Restored Back To Full Power During His Fight With Super Sonic, Dr.Finiteus Used Dark Magic to make him immune/heavily resistant towards Super Sonics Chaos Aura, Super Sonic revealed he could casually take down enerjak in that moments pace, but why would he? Knuckles is in their, Super Sonic would have to get passed Knuckles to beat Enerjak, Super Sonic was toying around And was really hesistant In how he dealt with Enerjak (Knuckles), Enerjak Even Said "Huh, so you are planning to use my own power against me?" Super Sonic And True Enerjak Being Stronger Is Just The Facts, Knuckles And Sonic have been Stated way too many times to be the embodiment of the energy. And they can destroy it on the physical level.

Ever heard of that one character that can surpass what he's contained in? Like Erazor Djiin From Sonic And The Secret Rings, It's the same here......

Sonic had Many Cosmic Level Feats And Scaling Before The Feat Though, not bustin' ya chops but you would need to get a crap ton of evidence for that since Sonic Has Statements Of Being Top Tier In the chaos force.
Click to expand...
Knuckles was not restored to full power, there is nothing to imply that is the case. The only time Super Sonic has been shown to be on the level of an avatar is after Knuckles was severely weakened. Mogul was stronger than him in the past, and while I'll agree Sonic gets stronger as the story progresses, Super Sonic's defeat against Dark Enerjak shows that despite being stronger than before, he could not have fought evenly with Knuckles in 184 without him being weakened.

I require a source on both Finitevus using magic to protect Knuckles from Sonic's aura and Sonic claiming he could have casually taken down Enerjak because neither of those things are said in 184. Sonic was not hesitant, he ends 183 saying "I'm going to beat the evil out of you" and they spend the majority of 184 whaling on each other.

Sonic and Knuckles being embodiments of chaos energy doesn't mean much of anything when comparing them to Enerjak, Master Mogul, and the like. Chaos Emeralds and Power Rings are also embodiments of chaos energy, but they're clearly below Mogul.

I would also like the source for Sonic and Knuckles claiming they can destroy chaos energy on a physical level.

Admitably, I haven't played Secret Rings, would you elaborate on your Erazor Djiin analogy?

I'm not saying Sonic hasn't displayed cosmic level feats and couldn't affect the multiverse the way he did, I'm saying the specific claim of him destroying the chaos force is a ridiculous outlier. Albeit, I've been unable to find the forum post Ian Flynn had made regarding it no longer being in the comics only the synopsis on Mobius Encyclopedia.
 
I might as well break this up.

True Enerjak and second tenure Master Mogul are both one with the Chaos Force. True Enerjak being scattered is irrelevant for this fight as for the sake of having this matchup happen, both are at their peak.

As for Sonic erasing the Chaos Force, the Chaos Force is confirmed by Ian Flynn to be dropped as a concept in Post-Super Genesis Wave and the multiverse was reset through conceptual manipulation. Enerjak being stronger than Super Sonic doesn't matter when conceptual manipulation ignores durability.
 
Mogul was able to fatally wound the Ancient Walkers, something Enerjak couldn't do even when he was at full power. Furthermore, Enerjak being contained within the Chaos Force is relevant because he was able to be contained within it meaning the force itself, and by extension Mogul, is stronger than him. Mogul was not one with the chaos force the same way Enerjak, the Ancient Walkers, Aurora, and others are, he is the force in its entirety. Anything that relies on the Chaos Force or exists within the Chaos Force is below Mogul by default in this scenario because he is their power source. Trying to say Enerjak is stronger than Mogul here is like saying 10 is bigger than 100.

There's a whole mess of problems with Sonic erasing the Chaos Force, but that's neither here nor there because it's irrelevant to the conversation.
 
I can't put multiple quotes in a single comment (as far as I'm aware), so to avoid double posting, I'm going to awkwardly cite them.

Post #27 "The Ancient Walkers and Aurora had to gang up on Enerjak and even then, they couldn't destroy him, only scatter him."

Master Mogul mortally wounding the Ancient Walkers is a more impressive feat than the Walkers needing assistance to scatter Enerjak, especially since it was the weaker Master Mogul. (although admittedly this feat is a little wonky because it implies an avatar could have replicated it, unless Mogul's understanding of Chaos energy and or his inherent power in addition to Dimitri's is what made it possible) Even before he was scattered, he was still weaker than the Chaos Force itself as he existed within it the same as the Walkers. Ergo, the second Master Mogul is above him.

Anyway on to the reasons I had to format this all weird.

Post #25 "Enerjak being stronger than Super Sonic doesn't matter when conceptual manipulation ignores durability."

I originally ignored this because it was irrelevant to the Enerjak vs Mogul discussion, but I was thinking about it while stuck in traffic this morning and realized it's completely ridiculous.

Just saying Sonic's conceptual manipulation bypasses durability doesn't explain how he's able to affect someone with more power than him who should easily be able to resist it. Sonic and Megaman were able to resist the effects of the Super Genesis Wave, which works the same way as chaos control. It makes no sense for Enerjak, who is on a higher plane of existence and with more power, to not be able to resist Sonic's chaos control.

Post #2 "For example, [Enerjak] has better mindhax such as when he corrupted Chaos Knuckles, meanwhile a weaker Hyper Knuckles resists Master Mogul's mindhax."

Enerjak didn't mind hax Chaos Knuckles in issue 181 unless you're referring to Dark Enerjak, but it took years for Enerjak to take over that Knuckles, which is hardly impressive. (relatively speaking)

Mogul didn't attempt to use mind hax on Knuckles in issue 56, so unless there was another time Master Mogul fought Hyper Knuckles (there isn't), this never happened.
 
All wrong

1 - Sonic destroyed directly Chaos Force, not True Enerjak, he destroyed the Force and consequently Enerjak was also destroyed, this is because Enerjak individually have resisted the Aurora and Ancients Walkers attacks, which are also one with the Chaos Force and consequently they have conceptual manipulation.

2 - Even if I'm wrong, Enerjak could still have resistance against conceptual manipulation on a smaller scale than Super Sonic and Super Rock, this would still be a feat of Super Sonic/Super Megaman and not one contradiction, one thing does not nullify the other.

3 - Super Forms would still have conceptual manipulation because Master Mogul ("Super Mogul") mortally wounded the Ancient Walkers.

4 - It is say that Enerjak has become one with the Chaos Force, all who ascend to Chaos Force unite with it. There is no such thing as "just being inside the Chaos Force" until Aurora say dat Chaos Knuckles would join with Chaos Force.
 
@Dark Matter557

I assume you're talking to me. (if you are I don't blame you for not quoting all of that)

1 - That doesn't really fix the problems with Sonic erasing the Chaos Force, I guess it's a better way of explaining him defeating Enerjak, but it doesn't solve any of the feat's problems.

2 - That's sort of the problem. Enerjak in inarguably stronger than Sonic. Even if Sonic only destroyed the force and Enerjak died as a byproduct instead of him being destroyed directly, the force is even stronger than Enerjak making it far far stronger than Sonic. It is a contradiction for Sonic to defeat Enerjak or the Chaos Force.

3 - I wasn't saying Sonic doesn't have conceptual manipulation, I was saying you can't just use that to handwave inconsistencies away. Super Sonic also doesn't properly scale to Mogul's feat of wounding the walkers since he was still well above Super Sonic in terms of power at that point.

4 - Technically, characters like Sonic have gone into the force before without being one with it, but since no one has argued that Enerjak or Mogul aren't one with the force I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Edit: linked to proper thread
 
1 and 2 - That's why it is called "conceptual manipulation", it does not matter if the individual is stronger, conceptual manipulation will bypass this diference of power. True Enerjak is existentially superior to Super Sonic, but nothing prevent Sonic Sonic to destroy it with specific skills (SGW). And the Chaos Force is not stronger than Enerjak, the Chaos Force is Enerjak and Enerjak is the Chaos Force

3 - Mogul was well superior to the Super Sonic at that time, but Super Sonic had a power with a considerable approximation, since Super Sonic, Turbo Tails and Master Mogul were able to confront it consistently

4 - Back for the question 1 and 2, in the DataBook is said that Enerkjak became a with the Force
 
1 and 2 - This sounds like an NLF, we've seen chaos users with more power resist the effects of those with less. Enerjak is one with the Chaos Force, yes but saying "the Chaos Force is Enerjak and Enerjak is the Chaos Force" is simply wrong. He exists inside the force like Aurora, the Ancient Walkers, Knuckles and Mogul (briefly), and several of Knuckles' ancestors. Saying he is the entirety of the Chaos Force is like saying a Jedi who dies and becomes one with the Force controls it in its entirety.

3 - The three of them were able to fight him without being wasted, but they still needed a chaos siphon and help from others to be able to defeat Mogul. None of them individually should scale to wounding the walkers.

4 - I'm aware Enerjak is one with the force, so are many others. What he is not is the Chaos Force in its entirety like Mogul was. My previous comment was referencing that Sonic in issue 35 briefly entered the force without being one with it.
 
1 & 2) >NLF.

No dude, conceptual manipulation is hax. Hax allows a weaker opponent to harm a stronger opponent by ignoring durability. Oh wow, another example with the Force comparison from Star Wars when it isn't remotely comparable to the Chaos Force. Knuckles, The Ancient Walkers, Aurora, and Enerjak don't simply exist inside the Force, they are the Chaos Force. When Knuckles became one with it, he is literally shown to become omnipresent.

3) If they were able to trade blows with Mogul, then they scale.

4) Sonic didn't enter the Chaos Force. That was just a zone where the Walkers manifested themselves in.
 
1 and 2 - This is not NFL and Shadow has already explained. You have just used ad argumentum consequentiam to justify an isolated cause (Star Wars) and an individual cause (Chaos Force). If you want to insist that Enerjak and the others, except Mogul, do not have full control over the Force and are not totally one with her okay, but "becoming one with The Chaos Force" no look nothing with just exist inside it

3 - Shadow too has already explained this, so there is no need for me to explain something1 and 2 - This is not NFL and Shadow has already explained. You have just used ad argumentum consequentiam to justify an isolated cause (Star Wars) and an individual cause (Chaos Force). If you want to insist that Enerjak and the others, except Mogul, do not have full control over the Force and are not totally one with her okay, but "becoming one with The Chaos Force" no look nothing with just exist inside it

4 - Shadow too has already explained this, so there is no need for me to explain something already explained
 
1 - The problem is they both have the same hax and the same resistance to those hax. They get their powers from the same place, ergo the one with more power has better hax. We have never seen anyone in the comic out hax someone with more power than them.

2 - I'm not saying the Force in Star Wars is the exact same as the Chaos Force I'm saying they share similar properties such as existing in all things and in both we see characters enter into it upon death. And like the Force, entering into the Chaos Force does not grant one the totality of its power. There is 0 evidence that this is the case.

When I say "they exist in the Chaos Force" I mean the same thing as when I say "they are one with the Chaos Force" if you interpreted it as meaning different things I apologize but my intent was to use them synonymously.

3 - I'm insisting that all those characters don't possess the entire Chaos Force because they don't, that is a baseless claim that doesn't make any sense. How can they all possess the entirety of the force? If they all possess all the force then they are all of equal strength which we know is not true because of Enerjak and Mogul.

4 - After double checking, I did indeed misremember it being the Chaos Force instead of another unnamed reality.
 
You're contradicting yourself,Master Mogul with the entire Chaos Force was supposedly still haxed by the Ancient Walkers, Who by your logic are supposed to be much weaker & shouldn't be able to. The Walkers & Aurora were also inferior to True Enerjak yet they still haxed him.Which one is it?
 
This is true, Finitevus' hex also remains on Knuckles after he becomes Enerjak. An argument could be made that one's mind is more susceptible to manipulation seeing as the hex and Mogul's curse both affect the mind, but that's just conjecture on my part, I'd have to look into it more. I don't know if I'd consider Enerjak being scattered as being "haxed" we don't really know a lot about the event, all four of them working together was clearly required to make up for the difference in power though.

Sonic and Mega Man display resistance to reality warping as shown in World's Collide, so even though certain abilities can affect stronger opponents, that is shown to not be one of them. Edit: I lost track of what thread this was
 
1 - Exactly, resistance, not immunity

2 - I know you are not saying this, but you are using the cause of one to use in consequence of another. Now you have better explained what you meant by "becoming one with the Force," but you are still wrong, which leads you to think that there is an intentional variation in the phrase "become one with the Force"? This is clearly different from being in Force

3 - Chaos Force is everything, and whoever becomes one with it becomes everything, but there are degrees of how much affinity that you have with the "All." Both are exactly the same thing when it comes to the physical, astral body, beyond and beyond, but not to consciousness, because the consciousness is what differ from who they are
 
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