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Heyyyyyy Shake I'm Sorry if I offended you with any of my previous posts. You're still my bro, dude.
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Archie Sonic revisions that should have gone through a year ago.
- Thread starter Foneybone1
- Start date
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 8,785
- 7,710
There's not much to be done yet, as the debate's still going back and forth, but there's currently a debate on the tiering of the characters and if there's enough evidence to warrant that level.
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- Thread starter
- #205
While the immortality thread hangs in limbo, I guess I'll respond to this.
Naugus
It's literally my Zatanna example. Naugus is powerful because of his magic, him being physically weaker than others doesn't make his magic weaker than them. Sonic is consistently outdone by Naugus' magic, even with a weapon that directly counters Naugus' magic, therefore, he shouldn't scale to Naugus' magic.
Why is Naugus reliant on the ZoS for power if he can effectively empower himself without it? If he can turn a bubble in space-time into a dimension that makes him 2C, why can't he do that to Mobius directly? Why does he need to fuse it with the ZoS in order to control it? Even while empowered within the ZoS, he can't affect Mobius, the only other zone he's affected is the Void, which is stated to be similar to the ZoS; he clearly only has Low 2C control over zones with properties like the ZoS. Expanding the zone is a Low 2C feat yes, but he was only able to expand it because of its natural properties making it an extenuating circumstance. The level of control he has over the ZoS is clearly exclusive to the zone, even while just a bubble in space-time. It shouldn't be treated as his regular level of power.
Feist
Lower tier characters inconveniencing higher tiered ones is a very common thing i comics. We don't need to see Feist stomp them. Characters in Feist's tier have consistently stomped characters in Omega's, and we see Omega's attack not hurt Feist when he isn't off guard. Why do you believe this instance is different than the other examples I gave of characters staggering higher tiers?
Mogul
For what to happen? There's nothing inconsistent going on in SSS1 or 163; Mogul stomps Sonic even when not at full strength. The only inconsistency is Sonic beating Mogul in 114.
I never claimed Mogul was infinitely weaker, why would I need to mention how? I was only showing that Mogul stomps Sonic even when weakened. I don't think characters scaling to others who stomp them on the grounds that they didn't die is legitimate. Since that is also a very commo occurrence i fictio. Heck, Game Sonic survived hits from the Time Eater but isn't Low 2C, why would Archie Sonic be different?
Al and Cal
Yes, I am arguing that because Scourge's speed being natural doesn't mean he still doesn't have to physically move as fast as he does. How would the collars inhibit natural abilities like speed and agility without also inhibiting physicality? Fiona, Flying, and Maxx all don't have hax and all have restraining collars, Fiona even says she's also slowed. The collars restricting physicality is not a leap in logic when they already have to do that in order to do what we're told they do. Believing that every single prisoner we see with a collar on has hax is a much bigger assumption to make.
Al and Cal's bodies are clearly made out to be different. They say not to take off their collars and involuntarily change when they're removed. Their robot bodies were evolved for combat, so we can't assume their human forms are physically equitable unless we're shown they are. If their human forms are the same then virtually everyone in the jail would be physically stronger than them, even after they transform; they shouldn't have been any trouble to take down. Their robot forms no selling attacks that laid out Sonic and Tails shows they are sturdier than their human forms who got ruffed up by Jeffry, who'd be comparable to Sonic and Tails, especially since Jeffry is restrained.
If Sonic scales just for surviving attacks and staggering opponents, why does it stop at Low 2C? Sonic and others have not only survived attacks from the likes of Enerjak, both Master Moguls, Super Scourge, and others but also managed to inconvenience them as per the nine examples in the OP, so why not downscale from them? Why is everyone Low 2C when there's more support for 2A?
Outside of removing misinformation, I haven't done much suggesting of changes. Should they be given tier 2 stonewall durability? I don't know, that's a different discussion, but I don't see why that wouldn't at least be a possibility. I agree that they have a bunch of really good durability feats, but my problem is that's all they have. They haven't shown their own AP to be on the level of what they've survived. Their durability goes beyond what they themselves can put out. They consistently take hits from 2A level beings but can't do anything to damage those same beings when they're paying attentio. I'm not taking a stance for or against tier 2 durability only against tier 2 AP. If all characters can manage is to inconvenience higher tiers and survive their attacks it feels disingenuous to consider them the same tier.
Naugus
It's literally my Zatanna example. Naugus is powerful because of his magic, him being physically weaker than others doesn't make his magic weaker than them. Sonic is consistently outdone by Naugus' magic, even with a weapon that directly counters Naugus' magic, therefore, he shouldn't scale to Naugus' magic.
Why is Naugus reliant on the ZoS for power if he can effectively empower himself without it? If he can turn a bubble in space-time into a dimension that makes him 2C, why can't he do that to Mobius directly? Why does he need to fuse it with the ZoS in order to control it? Even while empowered within the ZoS, he can't affect Mobius, the only other zone he's affected is the Void, which is stated to be similar to the ZoS; he clearly only has Low 2C control over zones with properties like the ZoS. Expanding the zone is a Low 2C feat yes, but he was only able to expand it because of its natural properties making it an extenuating circumstance. The level of control he has over the ZoS is clearly exclusive to the zone, even while just a bubble in space-time. It shouldn't be treated as his regular level of power.
Feist
Lower tier characters inconveniencing higher tiered ones is a very common thing i comics. We don't need to see Feist stomp them. Characters in Feist's tier have consistently stomped characters in Omega's, and we see Omega's attack not hurt Feist when he isn't off guard. Why do you believe this instance is different than the other examples I gave of characters staggering higher tiers?
Mogul
For what to happen? There's nothing inconsistent going on in SSS1 or 163; Mogul stomps Sonic even when not at full strength. The only inconsistency is Sonic beating Mogul in 114.
I never claimed Mogul was infinitely weaker, why would I need to mention how? I was only showing that Mogul stomps Sonic even when weakened. I don't think characters scaling to others who stomp them on the grounds that they didn't die is legitimate. Since that is also a very commo occurrence i fictio. Heck, Game Sonic survived hits from the Time Eater but isn't Low 2C, why would Archie Sonic be different?
Al and Cal
Yes, I am arguing that because Scourge's speed being natural doesn't mean he still doesn't have to physically move as fast as he does. How would the collars inhibit natural abilities like speed and agility without also inhibiting physicality? Fiona, Flying, and Maxx all don't have hax and all have restraining collars, Fiona even says she's also slowed. The collars restricting physicality is not a leap in logic when they already have to do that in order to do what we're told they do. Believing that every single prisoner we see with a collar on has hax is a much bigger assumption to make.
Al and Cal's bodies are clearly made out to be different. They say not to take off their collars and involuntarily change when they're removed. Their robot bodies were evolved for combat, so we can't assume their human forms are physically equitable unless we're shown they are. If their human forms are the same then virtually everyone in the jail would be physically stronger than them, even after they transform; they shouldn't have been any trouble to take down. Their robot forms no selling attacks that laid out Sonic and Tails shows they are sturdier than their human forms who got ruffed up by Jeffry, who'd be comparable to Sonic and Tails, especially since Jeffry is restrained.
If Sonic scales just for surviving attacks and staggering opponents, why does it stop at Low 2C? Sonic and others have not only survived attacks from the likes of Enerjak, both Master Moguls, Super Scourge, and others but also managed to inconvenience them as per the nine examples in the OP, so why not downscale from them? Why is everyone Low 2C when there's more support for 2A?
Outside of removing misinformation, I haven't done much suggesting of changes. Should they be given tier 2 stonewall durability? I don't know, that's a different discussion, but I don't see why that wouldn't at least be a possibility. I agree that they have a bunch of really good durability feats, but my problem is that's all they have. They haven't shown their own AP to be on the level of what they've survived. Their durability goes beyond what they themselves can put out. They consistently take hits from 2A level beings but can't do anything to damage those same beings when they're paying attentio. I'm not taking a stance for or against tier 2 durability only against tier 2 AP. If all characters can manage is to inconvenience higher tiers and survive their attacks it feels disingenuous to consider them the same tier.
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- Thread starter
- #206
bump
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Foney, make Archie Sonic tier 9 so I can make my friends a n g r y. Especially towards Shake. UwU
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Tier 9 Sonic would actually make him a pretty good smurf
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Feist didn't get rid of the Secondary attributes of the Emeralds,the gathering at the spire did. Sonic Transforms into Super Sonic with no ill affects even when all the red emeralds are present.
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It could be interpreted as any of the top 3 rows as that's what the flash encompasses. Point is that he was unaffected,nor were Tails or Shadow when they were drawing the emeralds to the spire.The wording seems to claim that the secondary abilities never existed,which is false.
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- Thread starter
- #214
The main conversation atm is mostly just between me and Shake, but he can't respond right away due to college. Due to the size of the OP I didn't want to contact staff until a consensus or impasse was reached. I think, for now at least, it can remain as is.
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- Thread starter
- #217
I'd say leave it open for now, if Shake wants to move it elsewere then we can, but if he wants to just continue it here then we'll just keep it here.
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Part of the conversation has been taken to another thread. Considering how much we've talked/made posts about just 1 subject, perhaps having separate threads is a good idea.
