Archer VS Assassin: 9-B Edition

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Alright, apparently I need to spell out what Roland's capable of, since people seem to have little concept of what he can do. Again.

The feat he scales to is roughly 1.13 kg of TNT, and he's also capable of casually breaking the arm of another guy who survived the same thing he did. He's within casual oneshotting range of a guy almost 2x as durable as Connor is by surviving cannonballs. (Which is the only feat given that has a number attached, yet.)

Sneaking up on Roland is not going to happen. He has extransensory perception that tells him the exact point he's being watched or followed, and said perception was potent enough to detect Mordred shadowing him from miles away. Beyond that, he has natural superhuman senses that let him scent people from yards off and hear a drop of water hit the ground. While in the middle of a battleground full of gunshots and explosions and people fighting/dying.

>laying traps

You're kidding me. Part of Roland's training from childhood involved tracking, trailcraft and trap-spotting. So he's the guy to go to if you think your girlfriend might be hiding something, do ya kennit. He easily located traps that were hidden and camouflaged, and can notice things like week-old footprints and twigs that have been disturbed by someone.

>Acrobatics

Roland effortlessly shoots down sneetches; flying, zigzagging, golfball-sized explosives that can alter their own flightpaths on a whim. They constantly change direction mid-flight, oftentimes actively attempting to avoid Roland's aim by making their flight patterns as erratic as possible, and Roland still shoots them down with laughable ease. Acrobatics and parkour by themselves, even of Ezio's caliber, aren't going to be enough to keep the Gunslinger from putting a bullet in him.

 

[KLOL506]

Connor tanked mortar fire and gunpowder sheds exploding at his face tho, explosions that reduced the entire shed and its barrels to splinter. Connor also held his own against Haytham multiple, who is considerably superior and has the exact same feats to a greater degree.

Ezio's senses are just as good, if not better. He can literally trace trails gone cold and revisit events that have already happened, including events that go back hundreds of years. He has no problems identifying certain poisons just by looking at certain poisonous plants, and Ezio could even realize that enemies were tailing him from several hundreds of meters, as seen when he quickly deduced that he and Leonardo were being followed in the Appenian mountains.

Ezio also has no problem free-aiming with a gun attached to his wrist and has easily kept up against opponents who can match him in speed, even when they rely on other backhanded tactics. Overall, not as good as Roland's gunslinging skills, but it should be more than enough for Ezio to land in a shot.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

So deductive reasoning lets him sneak up on a guy with supernatural senses now?

You haven't provided context for this shed feat at all, and there is currently no number or calc attached to it

Failed gunslingers like Eldred Jonas have better skill feats than that.

 

[KLOL506]

Ezio himself has supernatural senses tho. That's how Ezio figures out where and when to strike. I already provided the gunpowder shed feat in the youtube links above.

But very well. Here it is.

 

[KLOL506]

Connor also survived this. This reduced several wooden barrels to burnt splints and blew a massive hole into the rear section of the Randolph, and according to this calc, it'd take about 9.11e5 joules to fragment one normal barrel.

And before you ask, no, Connor's health didn't dip from the explosion, it dipped because the guy playing the game got hit by enemies too many times before the guy got Connor upto Biddle.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

I do not have time to look through an entire 35 minute video to find that one scene. Regardless, breaking a wooden barrel is only 1/5 of a kilogram of TNT. And I'm pretty sure that the inverse square law will also have some more to say about that explosion. As there is no calculation for this particular feat, can we please just stick with what has already been proven?

 

[KLOL506]

I did give a timestamp tho.

And that explosion blew up multiple barrels and a massive hole in the ship. You're also forgetting about the fragmentation of the shed as a whole. The ship thing is a different matter entirely.

Either way, my vote still stands. I'll stick with Ezio via better equipment, versatility, agility and precog.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I'm only counting this vote because precog is a legitimate argument. (if only sort of) Everything else mentioned has largely been rendered moot.

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty sure those explosions exceed 2m radius because Connor himself is 1.88m tall scaling to Washington, and those explosions dwarf him and the areas he's in, no way those explosions are that small. And AC3's sequel, AC4BF, has similarly-sized explosions that can cover areas in excess of several meters at the very least.

So, I'll assume a minimum of 4m radius without pixel scaling (Which will give better results anyway).

((0.004/0.28)^3)/2 = 1.457725947521865713e-6 kilotons or 6.09913 megajoules (More or less equal to Roland's AP)

Also, Ezio can pinpoint weak spots in objects with Eagle Sense.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

How good is Ezio's precog?

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty good, it warns him of events several seconds before they happen. Part of Ezio's high sense of awareness comes from his precog alone, and during investigations he is capable of accurately predicting where, when and how his enemies will strike, like most other Eagle Vision users, except his is an evolved version. Even those who haven't adequately trained their Eagle Vision are capable of deducing where targets are, without prior knowledge, like Desmond, who figured out where his dad was imprisioned inside an Abstergo building when he goes to kill Warren Vidic and Daniel Cross. Altair himself could use the Eagle Vision in a similar manner to find out those using highly-advanced cloaking methods like that of Al Mualim and even counter his attacks based on pure precognition (The Apple of Eden can warn of incoming enemies like that), and Shay used his Eagle Vision in a radar-like manner. Only time they're not gonna work is if you go toe-to-toe against another Eagle Vision user, for some reason.

In short, anyone with Eagle Vision can perform all of these feats pretty well and without loss of accuracy.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Precog only goes so far when you're dealing with someone who quite literally doesn't miss. Agility doesn't help either, for the same reason.

And. Ground based explosion. Use the fireball formula, not the airburst one

 

[KLOL506]

What's the ground-based explosion formula? I didn't find one on this wiki.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Precog only goes so far when you're dealing with someone who quite literally doesn't miss. Agility doesn't help either, for the same reason.

Actually, now that I think about it, Roland's telepathy does the same thing, letting him see people's exact moves and thoughts before they themselves even realize they're moving or thinking. So this isn't really an advantage either.
And before someone says it (I just know it's going to happen), fighting off mind control is not the same as blocking someone from reading your mind, and the former is all I see on Ezio's page.

 

[KLOL506]

Ezio can figure the same thing out, so both of them will figure out each other's moves some other way.

Also, can someone tell me the ground-based fireball explosion formula? Because it isn't anywhere in the wikia.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

W = R^3 * ((27136 * P + 8649)^(1/2) / 13568 - 93 / 13568)^2

W = yield in tons of tnt, R = radius in meters, and P = pressure of the shockwave in bars.

 

[KLOL506]

I have no idea what the pressure would be.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Well, if you're talking about my exams, then pretty damn high

Nah, it'd be best to use standard overpressure which is 20 psi, or 1.37895 bars

 

[KLOL506]

Uh oh.

Connor and Haytham's dura might be far higher than I expected to be. And it's too damn consistent.

4^3 * ((27136 * 1.37895 + 8649)^(1/2) / 13568 - 93 / 13568)^2 = 0.005143579884709811173 tons of TNT, or 9-A.

AKA Connor is a tank.

Lemme check my numbers.

EDIT: Yeah no, it's definitely 9-A. Are you sure those are the right numbers for gunpowder, Crimson?

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

As far as I know, they don't change dependant on the method of explosion. I've used this formula for laser beams and bubbles of light, and they don't change.

 

[KLOL506]

In that case, I'll take 3 m radius as a the absolute safe lowball. 2m is way too inaccurate for explosions in a game like AC3, since they cover massive areas as seen in the ship explosion link I put here.

3^3 * ((27136 * 1.37895 + 8649)^(1/2) / 13568 - 93 / 13568)^2 = 0.002 tons of TNT AKA 9.07 megajoules (Almost 2x Roland's AP and decently into Wall level)

I also forgot to mention that the Staff of Eden gave Ezio a permanent but negligible boost to his own physical strength.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I'm pretty sure you're going to need to pixelscale instead of ballparking.

We also need this in a blog, if we're going to be using it at all.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm pretty sure you're going to need to pixelscale instead of ballparking.
We also need this in a blog, if we're going to be using it at all.

Yes, you're right. We'll need a proper calc. (Which I'm pretty sure will give better results, hopefully).

Sadly, I won't be able to give proper images as I've already progressed too far into the game and conquered all forts, meaning no more gunpowder sheds to blow up. At least, until AC3 Remastered comes out.

 

[KLOL506]

How about switching to a different character to make the fight fairer?

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

How is it unfair?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I'll do it when I'm not about to go to sleep.

 

[KLOL506]

How is it unfair?

I mean, we still don't have a proper calc and pixel scaling might prove difficult considering the lack of images and that you don't see everyone standing on a gunpowder shed about to explode. The best one we have laying around is the explosion yield calculator.

Then again I'm pretty sure an official calc with pixel scaling will certainly have insanely higher results anyway.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

Ezio took down massive towers and effectively reduced several gigantic wooden catapults to splinters with his cannons. These are the same cannons Ezio tanked during the Siege of Viana.

Maybe this is something one could calc.

EDIT: NVM, Ezio actually blows up metal cannons as a whole. And they're big. OOF.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

Ezio stomps now. He got upgraded to 9 megajoules.

Or does he? Roland still has his crazy-impressive accuracy and senses. And 9-A revolvers.

KEK

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

The stomp doesn't exist. Roland's No. 1 wincon is to shoot Ezio. And 9-A revolvers means he can still do that

 

[KLOL506]

Ezio's wincon is also to just shoot Roland.

Or throw bombs.

Or do anything, really.

While the only sensible way Roland can actually obliterate Ezio is to just shoot him.

 

[DMUA]

And he's motherforking roland

literally, the second Ezio pulls any form of parkour he is absolutely going to die, and if he gets too close while going in a straight line, that too will prove his end.

 

[KLOL506]

Or, if Ezio by any shape or form, manages to eventually overwhelm Roland with precog and manages to get up close where a shot will mean nothing and he just dodges, Ezio can just slice Roland in half. Roland's gonna have no chance against Ezio in H2H, so to speak.

If Roland makes a wrong move, it'll only be a matter of time before Ezio just does the same thing as Roland: DRAW HIS GUN.

Not to mention that Ezio can use Eagle Sense to pinpoint more weakspots at any given time than Roland can.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, if AC Revelations is anything to go by, Ezio's got more skill to use than Altair ever did. Even without the whole Masyaf Key expedition, by feats alone, Ezio's got better smarts than Roland himself.

Also, once Ezio gets a lock on Roland and shoots, Roland's down and out for the count. Even without sights Ezio can just shoot his gun without pulling the trigger. He just points at you and ends it there. The only times he actually missed was when he intended to, so as to cause distractions, but such instances were too rare in his lifetime.

There's also the fact that Ezio can exploit Roland's weaknesses and his surrounding's weaknesses just by blinking with his Eagle Sense, so there's that too.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

Last I remember, Roland made use of .45 Colt rounds that go within 343 to 370 m/s, which are far, far slower than cannonballs can hit. Even if he fires his revolvers like a machine gun, those bullets will still be too slow to Ezio's eyes.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Alright. Just got back from Oz, so time for some big boy debunking

>Roland has no chance in H2H

Absolutely false. Roland, like all gunslingers, is trained in hand-to-hand combat from the moment he was taken under Cort's violent wing. He was the youngest ever gunslinger to beat his teacher in a fight without his guns, and is obviously superior to other failed gunslingers a la Mr. Jonas.

>Ezio can pinpoint more weakspots than Roland

Might be true. But Roland is no limping lilly in this field, and will be able to notice weak points in Ezio's armour. And while the assassin is in a whole other class, Roland is good enough to make the difference negligible.

>Roland's bullets are the big slow

Cannonballs tend to have a starting speed of around 430 m/s. While faster than Roland's bullets, it's not that much faster. Only 1.2536x. And if we're getting into this debate, I will remind you that Roland legitimately blocks bullets with nothing but his gun. So when both of them have similar bullet-timing capabilities, then I reckon that Roland's ability to spam bullets with the rate of a machine gun will come in very handy.

 

[KLOL506]

Never said that Roland has no chance in H2H. Just that Roland's AP is considerably lower than that of Ezio.

Also, I checked the cannons, and they seem to be quite faster than 430 m/s. Mortars alone can cover over 580 meters within less than a second (AC4 Black Flag and Rogue are a living testament to this, seeing as how most of AC contains ancient weapons far more overpowered than real-life standards). Ezio also has no problems dodging multiple cannonballs shot at him simultaneously at point-blank range (And this is when he's on a boat, not on foot), and has actually gone toe-to-toe with a machine-gun made by Leonardo himself. Other comparable Assassins like Jacob Frye can dodge multiple rifle rounds that can go as high as 400 m/s and fire back just as fast without his enemies even looking (Again, at point-blank range). Galina Voronina has no problems dodging assault rifle rounds simply by somersaulting. Most of these Isu-Hybrids are equal to each other in the speed department, to boot.

And yes, Jacob can shoot his revolver as fast as a machine gun and even other enemies somewhat on par with him don't see it coming until after they've already been hit (if the gatling gun mission is anything to say for itself), provided its quality compensates for it.

EDIT: Surprisingly, the heaviest 42-lb cannons have the highest range at 5612 yards, or 5131 meters. And those are the ones that have been used in the games, as they cover several kilometers in less than a few seconds.

Also yeah, Ezio's gonna be able to figure out weak-spots faster than Roland will. Ezio doesn't even have to activate Eagle Sense to find them.

 

[KLOL506]

BTW, what kind of bullets did Roland block? And how fast were they?

Also, Ezio is fully Supersonic to Roland's Subsonic combat speed with Supersonic reactions, and the latter got overwhelmed after dodging two to three bullets.