• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Arceus's Speed Downgrade and Others

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Lake Trio doesn't seem to be "just concepts" either.

I can see where you guys are coming from with this, and Dialga and Palkia being respectively present on all of space and time of the multiverse, but I'm iffy about type 1.
 
DMB 1 said:
The Lake Trio doesn't seem to be "just concepts" either.
I can see where you guys are coming from with this, and Dialga and Palkia being respectively present on all of space and time of the multiverse, but I'm iffy about type 1.
Click to expand...
What Abstract Existence would the CT, according to you? I just used the definitions from their feats and nothing else described them.

The CT also has been described as long-living compare to the LT according to the blog that I linked.
 
So both Giratina and the Distortion world are the personifications?

That kind denies Type 1 even further.
 
Personification is just a synonym of embodiment. And as DMB said, this further puts type 1 into question.
 
RotofBots said:
Personification is just a synonym of embodiment. And as DMB said, this further puts type 1 into question.
Click to expand...
There are such things as Type 1 Abstract Existence that are embodiments like Madoka Kaname.

I think there was a misunderstanding of the definition here and the synomnym doesn't denie Type 1.
 
There are such things as Type 1 Abstract Existence that are embodiment.

Never said there weren't but in order for them to be a type 1, you need more evidence than them simply being personifications.
 
Nedge1000 said:
Like what? Personification = embodiment. At this point, the argument against Type 1 feels like Argument from incredulity fallacy.
Click to expand...
Please. Don't just accuse people of fallacies just because you disagree. That's somewhat childish.

As for that, the Abstract Existence page states:

"Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability". So yeah, I have a reason to be skeptical not just incredulity as you claim.
 
Nedge1000 said:
There are such things as Type 1 Abstract Existence that are embodiments like Madoka Kaname.

I think there was a misunderstanding of the definition here and the synomnym doesn't denie Type 1.
Click to expand...
But Madoka is stated Numerous times to live purely as a concept.

The Creation Trio isn't.

The argument "the Creation trio is one with their realms, just like Giratina is one with the Distortion World", which is correct, however, the guy stated that even the Distortion World itself is just a personification, which doesn't seem to be one with the concept itself. You can even freely enter and travel through the Distortion World as shown in the game. (and I do even remember that being a similar case with Palkia and Dialga's Realms in the movies).


You'd have to prove that the Distortion World is a concept.
 
I don't accuse people of fallacies. I accused people's argument of being fallacious. There is a big difference as the latter anyone can do it and if I argued from the first it would be Appeal to motive fallacy, RotofBots.
 
RotofBots said:
Nedge1000 said:
Like what? Personification = embodiment. At this point, the argument against Type 1 feels like Argument from incredulity fallacy.
Click to expand...
Please. Don't just accuse people of fallacies just because you disagree. That's somewhat childish.
As for that, the Abstract Existence page states:

"Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability". So yeah, I have a reason to be skeptical not just incredulity as you claim.
Click to expand...
You miss the rest of the quote on the page

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regenerationn or control over the abstraction.

Control over abstraction check

Numerous Statements Type 2, 4, 5 check
 
@Nedge

If you look at this thread, it was agreed that the CT don't manipulate their abstraction, only embody it.

"Numerous Statements Type 2, 4, 5 check"

Don't understand by what "Type 2, 4, 5" mean. Also, any scans that or quotes Dialga or Palkia are reliant on time and space as the only quotes provided were the fact that they embody the abstraction.
 
DMB 1 said:
Nedge1000 said:
There are such things as Type 1 Abstract Existence that are embodiments like Madoka Kaname.

I think there was a misunderstanding of the definition here and the synomnym doesn't denie Type 1.
Click to expand...
But Madoka is stated Numerous times to live purely as a concept.
The Creation Trio isn't.

The argument "the Creation trio is one with their realms, just like Giratina is one with the Distortion World", which is correct, however, the guy stated that even the Distortion World itself is just a personification, which doesn't seem to be one with the concept itself. You can even freely enter and travel through the Distortion World as shown in the game. (and I do even remember that being a similar case with Palkia and Dialga's Realms in the movies).


You'd have to prove that the Distortion World is a concept.
Click to expand...
Technically, we now Dialgia is the concept and embodies it. It is not contractionary if Dialgia is both a concept and the disortion world is the personification of Anti-matter.
 
RotofBots said:
@Nedge
If you look at this thread, it was agreed that the CT don't manipulate their abstraction, only embody it.

"Numerous Statements Type 2, 4, 5 check"

Don't understand by what "Type 2, 4, 5" mean. Also, any scans that or quotes Dialga or Palkia are reliant on time and space as the only quotes provided were the fact that they embody the abstraction.
Click to expand...
 
The LT is probably type 1 or 2, as it is confirmed that they are practically knowledge, willpower and emotions.

Pokemon DP vol03p023-me
Pokemon DP vol05 p147-me
 
Perhaps, they are the same case as CT as their profiles is more outdated than what I thought.

NeoZex6399, forgot to say, awesome work with additional evidence!
 
-3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself.

"From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.
From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.
The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.
The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be."

"Those three beings I read to mean the three Pokémon of the lakes. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf.
The myth describes how they gave spirit to the world, shaping it."

"Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world."

This counts as Concept Creation?
 
No. It's simply the CT bringing Time and Space to the World, and the LT bringing emotions to it.

It's just Creation.
 
DMB 1 said:
No. It's simply the CT bringing Time and Space to the World, and the LT bringing emotions to it.
It's just Creation.
Click to expand...
It is a case by case basis, DMB 1.
 
I refer to matter and spirit (spirit in myths doesn't represent emotions, willpower and knowledge)
 
Again, IMO it's just creation of matter and souls, which is what the World is made of.

Side note, even if I don't like Pokémon that much, I must admit that the Arceus and the CT/LT lore is pretty interesting.
 
Those things are not referred to as concepts though.

"Shape reality" here is just them creating this stuff that makes up reality.
 
"Three Pokémon there were.
Into the lakes they dove.
Deep, deep, drawing no breath.
Deeper, deeper they dove.
Into suffocating depths they dove.
Deeper, then deepest they alight.
From the lake floor they rise.
Bearing with them the power to make vast lands, they rise again."

This should be Creation for LT
 
But that's because they influence the world like that, but that doesn't mean that anything that influences the world is a concept.

It's simply using the verb "shape" to describe them creating stuff, not concepts.
 
Just found another reason why Conceptual Manipulation for CT:

The case of the creation is similar to the Spirit's description in pokemon on Rimuru Tempest's profile.

Spirits are type 3 concepts as their birth give rise to the existence of their respective element, for example, time never existed until the Spirit of Time was born - synonymous to Dialga's case.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Everything12
  • Locked
Arceus Qualitative Upgrade
2
Replies
58
Views
16K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Noarasia
  • Locked
Giratina 5-Dimensional ?
Replies
16
Views
2K
Shiraito983
Shiraito983
Everything12
  • Locked
Arceus Nonduality/Transduality Type 2?
Replies
38
Views
5K
Everything12
Everything12
Everything12
  • Locked
Arceus Avatar Upgrade (Technically? More Clarification)
Replies
36
Views
4K
Everything12
Everything12
Mariogoods
Treating Pokémon Conquest as an independent continuity and remove Pokémon Conquest justification from Arceus' profile
Replies
12
Views
2K
Mariogoods
Mariogoods
Back
Top