Arceus's Speed Downgrade and Others

[NeoZex6399]

Creation for LT

 

[Elizhaa]

Creation for LT

I don't mind the additions for LT.

 

[DMB_1]

So the conclusion I cited remains the same, but with LT comAbstract Type 1 and 2?

Type 2 is simply Immortality reliant on a concept.

This seems more either type 1 or 3.

 

[Elizhaa]

Type 1 might be better since they created from Arceus very being. It should give them the same nature.

 

[DMB_1]

The very best I can see is them being all of time and space.

Otherwise I'm iffy about it.

 

[Elizhaa]

DMB 1, if it makes you feel less iffy, The real cal howard, a knowledgeable member of the verse has agreed to it.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

But Palkia and Dialga have infinite speed, not immeasurable.

That's strange. Isn't Dialga time itself?

How is being the embodiment of Time itself has to do with speed exactly?

Edit: Anyways, what are the current conclusions here so far?

 

[Elizhaa]

Magi Hussie, this topic was resolved Nigh-Omnipresence was chosen since Dialgia embodies only time and Palkia embodies only space.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Nedge Yea, I noticed and that should be fine.

 

[Elizhaa]

I guess it is about time make the additions.

 

[DMB_1]

Vtw, if they are type 1 concepts, they should also get type 8 Immortality, as you would need to affect the abstraction to affect them.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

[/I]

Edit: Anyways, what are the current conclusions here so far?

Acausality (Type 4) for Arceus, Lake Trio and Creation Trio

Self-Sustenence (Types 1, 2 and 3) for Arceus, LT and CT

Abstract Existence (Type 1) for Arceus, LT and CT

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) for Arceus and CT

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 4) for LT

Avatar Creation for Arceus, LT and CT

Immortality (Type 8 and 9) for Arceus, LT and CT

Creation for LT

 

[DMB_1]

Is till disagree with Concept Creation for the two Trios.

To me, it's just Creation (of matter and souls, or whatever).

 

[Elizhaa]

DMB 1, I think you are one of the few who disagreed.

 

[DMB_1]

Me, you and Zex were the only ones debating on that topic actually.

 

[RotofBots]

Tbf

I don't think the additions should've been made yet as there was still discussion and I'll wait for Assalt to come as well to give his input.

 

[Elizhaa]

Me, you and Zex were the only ones debating on that topic actually.

Cal included

 

[DMB_1]

You still haven't proven that matter and souls in that context are concepts.

 

[Elizhaa]

Tbf
I don't think the additions should've been made yet as there was still discussion and I'll wait for Assalt to come as well to give his input.

I did contact multiple staffs members who are supporters and Knowledge Members though; At this point, I have waited a lot or many days.

 

[RotofBots]

You only brought up the upgrades 16 hours ago...

 

[Elizhaa]

You still haven't proven that matter and souls in that context are concepts.

They have concept manipulation for more than this reasoning as I have shown with the Spirits' example from Rimuru world and CT like Dialgia would qualified for it. You did not comment on it.

 

[Elizhaa]

You only brought up the upgrades 16 hours ago...

I meant the CRT in general.

 

[DMB_1]

"Shaping the world" =/= having type 3 Concept Manipulation, which is the entire argument Neo used to try at giving them said ability.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

They have concept manipulation for more than this reasoning as I have shown with the Spirits' example from Rimuru world and CT like Dialgia would qualified for it. You did not comment on it.

Conceptual Creation for LT can be scaled to either CT and Arceus (mainly to Arceus, since both two trios are only aspects of the God Lhama)?

 

[Elizhaa]

They have concept manipulation for more than this reasoning as I have shown with the Spirits' example from Rimuru world and CT like Dialgia would qualified for it. You did not comment on it.

Conceptual Creation for LT can be scaled to either CT and Arceus (mainly to Arceus, since both two trios are only aspects of the God Lhama)?

Yes, also a point of mine.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I was summoned. This thread is pretty thicc; can someone give me a summary of the concept/abstraction portion of the discussion? I'd appreciate it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

TL;DR, given the feats of the Trio, type 3 abstraction is too low for them.

 

[Elizhaa]

Type 1 looks to be best choice via definitions.

 

[RotofBots]

Acausality (Type 4) for Arceus, Lake Trio and Creation Trio

Self-Sustenence (Types 1, 2 and 3) for Arceus, LT and CT

Abstract Existence (Type 1) for Arceus, LT and CT

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) for Arceus and CT

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 4) for LT

Avatar Creation for Arceus, LT and CT

Immortality (Type 8 and 9) for Arceus, LT and CT

Creation for LT

 

[Elizhaa]

Acausality (Type 4) would also scaled from Giratina since its realm is unbound by natural law of the world

 

[Assaltwaffle]

What is going on with conceptual manipulation, though?

 

[RotofBots]

@Assalt

It's regarding what type of conceptual manipulation the Pokémon Gods should get and if the LT should get it.

 

[Elizhaa]

What is going on with conceptual manipulation, though?

What do you mean, Assaltwaffle?

 

[RotofBots]

Current proposals:

Acausality (Type 4) for Arceus, Lake Trio and Creation Trio

Self-Sustenence (Types 1, 2 and 3) for Arceus, LT and CT

Abstract Existence (Type 1) for Arceus, LT and CT

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) for Arceus and CT

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 4) for LT

Avatar Creation for Arceus, LT and CT

Immortality (Type 8 and 9) for Arceus, LT and CT

Concept Creation for LT

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Nedge Where is new concept manipulation coming from?

 

[RotofBots]

-3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself.

"From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.
From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.
The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.
The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be."

"Those three beings I read to mean the three Pokémon of the lakes. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf.
The myth describes how they gave spirit to the world, shaping it."

"Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world."

This counts as Concept Creation?

@Assalt

This is what's being proposed.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I definitely don't agree with conceptual creation for the CT/LT. they are conceptual embodiments and then creating matter/spirit does not mean they created the concepts of matter/spirit.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Nedge Where is new concept manipulation coming from?

Also,

The case of the creation is similar to the Spirit's description in pokemon on Rimuru Tempest's profile.

Spirits are type 3 concepts as their birth give rise to the existence of their respective element, for example, time never existed until the Spirit of Time was born - synonymous to Dialga's case.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I definitely don't agree with conceptual creation for the CT/LT. they are conceptual embodiments and then creating matter/spirit does not mean they created the concepts of matter/spirit.

Yeah, I don't think they're conceptual creators either. Embodiments I'll argue til my grave, but Arceus is the creator.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

If Conceptual Creation is rejected, I think only Creation is fine for LT