Arceus vs Cronus

[Tivanenk]

Perish Song doesn't even matter. It takes time. Time that Arceus won't get. And lower level gods have both attack negating and conceptual manipulation as well.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Arceus is possibly higher than 2-B while Cronus is just a 2-B and nothing more than that at all. Should strongly imply Arceus has a power advantage in some way

And if people are gonna assume Cronus will start with Mega Drepanon, then we can also assume Arceus will start out with Perish Song and OHK Cronus too.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Dragonmaster That's what I'm saying. To me, this reasoning should at most put them at EQUAL grounds, not outright give the advantage to one or another, yet I see a lot of people going "Yeah, he beat Creation Trio, he should easily deal with the powers of Cronus".

 

[Tivanenk]

Is Cronus above the concept of willpower? If he isn't, Arceus simply erases it and it's GG

Since when can Arceus erase others' willpower?

 

[FateAlbane]

@Cal "Finally, something about speed equalized, but the normally slower character gets to keep his infinite speed attack sounds...unfair."

Not when Arceus gets the same reaction speed. That's literally the purpose of Speed Equalizing. Otherwise we just give the normal speed and make this a stomp for him.

 

[Tivanenk]

Nullifying hax with Cosmo is a legit thing in Saint Seiya and has been done since the beginning of the series.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Hmmmm this has gotten confusing and has open a can of worms.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Perish Song doesn't even matter. It takes time. Time that Arceus won't get. And lower level gods have both attack negating and conceptual manipulation as well.

And a being whos beyond the concept of time needs time to charge up an attack how? Also speed is equalized so that would also make their attacking speed equal too.

Well then Cronus will more than likely require a revision thread because Conceptual Manipulating is not listed on his profile and the hax coming from low level gods is nothing impressive by much either

Finally, for the willpower statement, he can erase other's willpower because he created the concept of willpower (Azelf).

 

[Reppuzan]

Since when can Arceus erase others' willpower?

He created the concept of Willpower, so it's highly likely that he can erase it too.

That said, he's never done it on-screen.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Anime Possibly goes into assumption territory, or else we get things like "Solar System Saitama" in other threads because he is likely higher than his current tiering.

And there's a difference between starting with your weapon in your hand then make a swing with it, to start with a move which usually takes some time all ready to go.

 

[Tivanenk]

snip

He created the concept of Willpower, so it's highly likely that he can erase it too.

That said, he's never done it on-screen.

Considering that Cronus' willpower was not created by Arceus, he actually needs to show he can erase others' willpower, not simply create.

This is a problem with a lot of Arceus threads. People assume he can destroy something when he has only been shown to create it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well considering the Creation trio are concepts itself. That's why they say that. But tbh these two are equals in power.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And there's a difference between starting with your weapon in your hand then make a swing with it, to start with a move which usually takes some time all ready to go.

But it woul depend on the tier someone is starting with to rightfully assume they'd go that high by "possibly". But I get the message. Though it shouldnt matter since Arceus has stat amping anyways.

And again, for Arceus specifically, why would he need time to charge up a move? He's beyond the concept in general and speed is equalized here.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Tivanenk This actually makes sense. Because someone creates a thing, doesn't mean they can outright destroy it. It may very well be that the power is more Creation than Destruction oriented unless shown otherwise. But I'm no Pokemon master, so I wouldn't know for sure.

 

[Tivanenk]

Perish Song doesn't even matter. It takes time. Time that Arceus won't get. And lower level gods have both attack negating and conceptual manipulation as well.

And a being whos beyond the concept of time needs time to charge up an attack how? Also speed is equalized so that would also make their attacking speed equal too.
Well then Cronus will more than likely require a revision thread because Conceptual Manipulating is not listed on his profile and the hax coming from low level gods is nothing impressive by much either

Finally, for the willpower statement, he can erase other's willpower because he created the concept of willpower (Azelf).

Perish Song needs time to activate. Unless Arceus has shown he can nullify the time of Perish Song directly, it's just an assumption, and not even a good one.

Again, Cronus' willpower wasn't created by Arceus or Azelf, so he needs to directly show to destroy the willpower of others, not simply create it.

There are too many assumptions going into Arceus' side right now.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Isn't one of the many rules of this site that creation=destruction?

Also, because this is bloodlusted, both characters will use their abilities to the fullest and most efficient.

Finally, like I was saying, I have no doubt that hax can be negated with Cosmos, but the whole thing about negation of acausality for Fate Manipulation with Cosmos is the equivalent of the DB example I made before. Especially given 'verse equalization, they'd have the same amount of Cosmos.

 

[KazarianFahs]

Isn't one of the many rules of this site that creation=destruction?

this^ .a lot of characters are rated universal or beyond AP and tier just for creation feats

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, Azelf can destroy the willpower of others. The following is a quote from the myths. Keep in mind that this is when they are in their not-strong forms and are actually not trying to harm anyone.

Look not into the Pokémon's eyes. In but an instant, you'll have no recollection of who you are. Return home, but how? When there is nothing to remember? Dare not touch the Pokémon's body. In but three short days, all emotions will drain away. Above all, above all, harm not the Pokémon. In a scant five days, the offender will grow immobile in entirety.

 

[Tivanenk]

Creation = destruction is only applicable for energy feats, not for concepts. If someone can create a concept, it does not automatically mean that someone can destroy that concept within another one.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Perish Song doesn't even matter. It takes time. Time that Arceus won't get. And lower level gods have both attack negating and conceptual manipulation as well.

And a being whos beyond the concept of time needs time to charge up an attack how? Also speed is equalized so that would also make their attacking speed equal too.
Well then Cronus will more than likely require a revision thread because Conceptual Manipulating is not listed on his profile and the hax coming from low level gods is nothing impressive by much either

Finally, for the willpower statement, he can erase other's willpower because he created the concept of willpower (Azelf).

Perish Song needs time to activate. Unless Arceus has shown he can nullify the time of Perish Song directly, it's just an assumption, and not even a good one.
Again, Cronus' willpower wasn't created by Arceus or Azelf, so he needs to directly show to destroy the willpower of others, not sirmply create it.

There are too many assumptions going into Arceus' side right now.

Perish Song needing time to activate doesnt mean the user of it needs time to use it. Arceus is beyond times concept so time doesnt apply to him or any of his moves. At least it shouldnt be applied to them. And its a good assumption, saying someone whos above a concept like time needs "time" to do one simple action is kind of ridiculous

Also no that's not how it works. Arceus didnt create the Naruto or Fairy Tail universes. Doesnt stop him from destroying theim in an instant. If we were to go by this logic that no one can destroy something they didnt create or have jurisiction over, then battles between other verses as a whole would be pointless. Arceus has a greater dominion over Willpower's concept than Cronus and there should be no reason why Arceus cant erase his will.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Perish Whatever won't work on Cronus, move on.

All your arguments center around abilities Cronus can resist.

 

[FateAlbane]

Looks strange to me when you imply that the character can erase concepts from entire Multiverses that he did not create himself despite never showing any sort of conceptual erasure of said level on his own series. The conceptual manipulation part of Arceus hax is not as combat oriented - or at least wasn't shown as that - as the powers Cronus has in his own arsenal.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. Not gonna lie, that sounds like that one guy who said that TOAA would get stomped by Goku with the whole "didn't create x from x's universe" thing.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Cronus is a High End 2-B, howard.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Matthew yet on his profile page he was labeled as "2-B". Trying to refute this will only lead to further pointless arguments.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But yeah. Perish Song would likely not work. In all seriousness, Arceus has better abilities to rely on than that.

@Matt. Resistance doesn't mean immunity. Just because Superman is resistant to punches doesn't keep Thanos from flicking his face in.

 

[QPower]

Well considering the Creation trio are concepts itself. That's why they say that. But tbh these two are equals in power.

Yeah, from what I've read for both I have a feeling that they are pretty evenly matched.

They both has hax and hax resistency. They can match each other blow for blow.

I have no idea who will actually win. So I vote draw.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Cronus is a High End 2-B, howard.

How many Universes is that?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, Conceptual Manipulation are a thing in SS. Primordials have it.

Cronus >>> Pontos, Uranus, Erebus, Eros

 

[FateAlbane]

@Cal Nowhere near the same sort of comparison, sorry. There's a difference between proficiency in using a certain hax for combat to saying the character can't use it. Want a similar example? Saying that Yukari has no limits to her border manipulation. She was never shown to manipulate a ton of all the Borders that exist out there, but hey, she HAS border manipulation of ALL borders, what's stopping her from using it in every possible way ever?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Perish Whatever won't work on Cronus, move on.
All your arguments center around abilities Cronus can resist.

Proof it wont work on him? And the same can be said for Arceus. Almost, if not, All of Cronus's hax are easily classifable under his plate hax

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cronus is a High End 2-B, howard.

I thought you said that he was low end 2-B on your post?

 

[Tivanenk]

People keep ignoring the fact that... Megas Drepanon is instant, while Perish Song needs time. Who will pull theirs off first is what matters. And it's defintiely not Perish Song (which likely wouldn't even work since it's simple death manipulation, which even Thanatos has).

 

[BreloomFanboy]

@Tivanenk Azelf which is a mere aspect of Arceus can.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Trust me. I get that Yukari example, and I hate it. However, I only brought up things that he has on his profile, unlike some of the things that Yukari has said to do in battles.

 

[Tivanenk]

Cronus is a High End 2-B, howard.

How many Universes is that?

Countless universes. No more detailed description.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, Conceptual Manipulation are a thing in SS. Primordials have it.
Cronus >>> Pontos, Uranus, Erebus, Eros

Conceptual Manipulation used by lower tiers is hardly impressive

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

People keep ignoring the fact that... Megas Drepanon is instant, while Perish Song needs time. Who will pull theirs off first is what matters. And it's defintiely not Perish Song (which likely wouldn't even work since it's simple death manipulation, which even Thanatos has).

Both have instant speed here. So Arceus can indeed dodge instantaneous attacks.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Looking at Arceus' profile, it seems that he is able to stop time. Now the peculiar thing is that, Cronus may actually not be a 4-dimensional being, but rather a 3-dimensional being that is still bound by time. This is because Chronos encompasses all of time in Saint Seiya, and all of the gods/titans have no control over it.

TL;DR: Chronos encompasses all of time in Saint Seiya. If Arceus stops time, Chronos may not be able to move due to being bound by time apparently.

If Cronos is able to move where time is stopped permanently, Cronus wins.

Anyways, this thread will be concluded really soon.

 

[Tivanenk]

People keep ignoring the fact that... Megas Drepanon is instant, while Perish Song needs time. Who will pull theirs off first is what matters. And it's defintiely not Perish Song (which likely wouldn't even work since it's simple death manipulation, which even Thanatos has).

Both have instant speed here. So Arceus can indeed dodge instantaneous attacks.

It can't dodge the attack because it has no traveling distance at all. You need the attack to travel to dodge it. And Megas Drepanon doesn't.