Arceus vs Chara

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's time... As the king of 2-C climbs up the multiversal ladder, his opponent is the murderous child of Undertale. DETERMINATION against plates. What wins (or ties)?


Genocide

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Humanity loses. Chara is genocidal and Arceus is kind of a dick.

As I said before, leaning towards stalemate/inconclusive. Conceptual beings are nothing new to Arceus, but Chara is extremely resilient once they've reached their absolute and taken the Player's SOUL, being unaffected by even True Resets and remaining in control. I also don't think Arceus could just unmake Chara in order to win, since it was the Player's DETERMINATION which brought them back from nonexistence, and now they're in full control of that. On the other hand, I don't think Chara is going to be able to seriously wound Arceus, and even if they could, Arceus has multiple ways to recover from it. Heck, even Palkia and Dialga showed the ability to bring back things that had been erased entirely, so Arceus logically should be able to do so, as well.

In conclusion, Llama God and MURDER_CHILD.exe probably just sit in a void for a while with Chara blasting Linkin Park.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Well, Chara has a massive power advantage due to being in one of the highest ranges within its own tier.

Dimensional BFR won't work as it's explicitly stated to be able to travel across (timeline) Universes. Forcefields won't work as Chara was able to travel such distances and yet was unaffected by the magical barrier that requires an infinite supply of 4th dimensional power implying like the player, they aren't affected by such physical limitations.

As was stated Arceus's ability to hit incorporeal entities isn't too useful here either as Chara's existence doesn't solely rely on the concepts it embody and it resisted erasure from a similarly powerful entity.

Theoretically, just killing Arceus isn't enough, as Arceus Iiterally brought an aspect of itself into existence and its true form is an incorporeal entity. The Original One would likely just create "Arceus" again if its existence is erased as it did in the very beginning.

Problem is, Chara is also a spirit and a much more powerful one at that. Arceus would be unable to make itself if even its original form of existence was erased.

Of course, I use the term "spirit" for Chara very loosely: after its absolute its proven to not even need a soul to manifest so Arceus's Invulnerability to spiritual attacks (not that ghost type attacks solely consist of a spiritual variety) is rendered null.

I'm giving this to Chara. I see no way Arceus can win this.

(Edited as I didn't realize the Creation Trio and Arceus were upgraded).

 

[KazarianFahs]

I'm just throwing in a Pin here,but arceus literally created the concept of "willpower" which is well-"determination" in the first place,so well,yea,but i have no idea how that affects absolute

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Determination is clearly more than just Willpower. Beside, UT Determination can reach 2-A in scale and power, something beyond Arceus' scope of creation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Isnt this kinda a stomp match since Chara can reach 2-A?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Determination is clearly more than just Willpower. Beside, UT Determination can reach 2-A in scale and power, something beyond Arceus' scope of creation.

Nothing on his file states that he can reach 2-A with Determination.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Humanity loses. Chara is genocidal and Arceus is kind of a dick.
As I said before, leaning towards stalemate/inconclusive. Conceptual beings are nothing new to Arceus, but Chara is extremely resilient once they've reached their absolute and taken the Player's SOUL, being unaffected by even True Resets and remaining in control. I also don't think Arceus could just unmake Chara in order to win, since it was the Player's DETERMINATION which brought them back from nonexistence, and now they're in full control of that. On the other hand, I don't think Chara is going to be able to seriously wound Arceus, and even if they could, Arceus has multiple ways to recover from it. Heck, even Palkia and Dialga showed the ability to bring back things that had been erased entirely, so Arceus logically should be able to do so, as well.

In conclusion, Llama God and MURDER_CHILD.exe probably just sit in a void for a while with Chara blasting Linkin Park.

^This

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I wasn't talking about Chara. Just that Determination is easily beyond Arceus' scope of power so it's not really possible for him to do anything to the concept of Determination itself.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I agree with Azzy

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually on second thought, how does Chara win this? With hax?

Because Chara is listed to be Likely 2-B while Arceus however is listed as a solid 2-B, possibly higher.

 

[KazarianFahs]

Determination is clearly more than just Willpower. Beside, UT Determination can reach 2-A in scale and power, something beyond Arceus' scope of creation.

TY but here's how i think about it,when you delete the concept of something,determination in this case,arceus doesn't need to produce a 2A feat,he isn't fighting against the throughput of power that chara derives from determination but the "concept" of determination which is powerless in itself,it's a concept,it produces power when you derive something from it,until you do that it's simply an abstract idea,so again when arceus "Deletes determination",he does not need to reproduce a 2A feat to beat a 2A chara,he's simply using his ability to cut the source of her power,again,this is from what i've read,i don't know if the same rules apply for "absolute chara"(he's called that,right?)

 

[RadicalMrR]

Also keep in mind Arceus can summon the Creation trio to help him.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

he does not need to reproduce a 2B feat to beat a 2B chara,he's simply using his ability to cut the source of her power,again,this is from what i've read,i don't know if the same rules apply for "absolute chara"(she's called that,right?)

Chara isnt even rated as a solid 2-B too....

 

[KazarianFahs]

^ lel just realized that,anyways,arceus's got this easy

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Hmmmm, Arceus has versatility and better hax, so I'm going with him.

Possession will not work on Arceus since some pokemon can possess, and being violent is something Arceus is more than willing to do.


Also worth noting is that both can time travel so I think that's a moot point.

Finally Arceus has better healing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Forget time travel, Arceus is omnipresent on a multiversal scale likely since he got upgraded to 2-B and possibly more. Wouldnt make sense for him to not exist as all the universes but only some.

Even then his consciousness exists across Time and Space completely as stated on his profile.

The fact that Chara in general is only a likely 2-B while Arceus can very possibly be nearing the 2-A tier, while keeping his solid 2-B rating, makes me believe Arceus already has this. Unless chara has some hax ability to give Arceus the L, i dont see how he wins.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Alright.

I actually think this is really close, BTW.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The fact that Chara in general is only a likely 2-B while Arceus can very possibly be nearing the 2-A tier, while keeping his solid 2-B rating, makes me believe Arceus already has this. Unless chara has some hax ability to give Arceus the L, i dont see how he wins.

Likely 2-B in AP. Their durability (via their type of regen and resistence to specific effects) is likely a good deal higher.

 

[DontTalk]

I would go with Chara here. Arceus has no method to put down Mid-Godly Regenerationn beings on his own level.

To that comes its lack of any high resistance against sould damage.

Arceus puts up a good fight, but will loose eventually IMO.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

I would go with Chara here. Arceus has no method to put down Mid-Godly Regenerationn beings on his own level.
To that comes its lack of any high resistance against sould damage.

Arceus puts up a good fight, but will loose eventually IMO.

It should be noted Chara's Regenerationn only applies to go back in time.

 

[DontTalk]

Hmmm....? Doesn't he have the same kind of regen that max. determination Frisk has against Asriel?

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Hmmm....? Doesn't he have the same kind of regen that max. determination Frisk has against Asriel?

Nothing proves that. When chara is in Frisk's body maybe but at their absolute they don't.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Chara was brought back to life from nothing due to Frisk and the Player's determination. They now have full access to this since, well, they have your soul.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That reminds me, couldnt Arceus just create more versions of the Creation trio on its level to give him a numbers advantage? And then there's still him having precog and conceptual manipulation.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

And then there's still him having precog and conceptual manipulation.

He could technically erase Chara since Chara is a concept, that of stats.

 

[DontTalk]

He could technically erase Chara since Chara is a concept, that of stats.

Arceus has conceptual creation as feat, not manipulating or destroying existing concepts. Not to mention that we don't know how unrestricted his use of that actually is beyond his showings (no character except 1-A can actually manipulate all concepts).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Arceus's profile has conceptual manipulation listed on it for creating the concepts of the pokeverse so it should have it here. Why wouldnt it be able to manipulate them?

 

[Talonmask]

Arceus is limited to what concepts he can manipulate as well, he can't just manipulate Chara.

Inconclusive, Chara cannot actually effectively hit Arceus because of his plates, precognition, and Attack Reflection. But Arceus cannot put down Chara completely.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wait cant Arceus use heal block? That would prevent Chara from even using his regen hax

 

[DontTalk]

Arceus's profile has conceptual manipulation listed on it for creating the concepts of the pokeverse so it should have it here. Why wouldnt it be able to manipulate them?

Why would chara not be 1-A?

Answer: because he doesn't have showings for it.

Similary Arceus doesn't have showings of manipulating and destroying existing concepts, but just creating them.

Any ability or application of an ability not explained or demonstrated to be part of what a character can do is effectively assumed to not be part of what he can do.

Else we would have to give every character ever ability due to not showng that they don't have them.

 

[Talonmask]

Heal Block only blocks healing through certain methods, abilities and HP items still function like normal, so, things like the Pokemon ability Regenerator would still work fine.

 

[DontTalk]

Wait cant Arceus use heal block? That would prevent Chara from even using his regen hax

What Talonmask says + Incredibly beyond the scope that this move was demonstrated to work on.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Arceus's profile has conceptual manipulation listed on it for creating the concepts of the pokeverse so it should have it here. Why wouldnt it be able to manipulate them?

Why would chara not be 1-A?
Answer: because he doesn't have showings for it.

Similary Arceus doesn't have showings of manipulating and destroying existing concepts, but just creating them.

Any ability or application of an ability not explained or demonstrated to be part of what a character can do is effectively assumed to not be part of what he can do.

Else we would have to give every character ever ability due to not showng that they don't have them.

I dont see how those connect. Chara isnt 1-A because he has showings/statements no where near that

Arceus on the other hand is factually refered to creating the creation trio and lake trio, being above them completely, giving them their abilities, etc. It wouldnt make any sense to say they can manipulate their concepts better than Arceus can, especially when such manipulation failed to do a thing to Arceus when not even at full power.

 

[DontTalk]

Palkia and Dialga manipulate space and time, not the concepts of space and time (they don't even have conceptual manipulation listed). They also represent the concepts of space and time, which is something else entirely.

No pokemon has a feat of manipulating or destroying existing concepts and neither does arceus.

We go by feats and explanations only, which is that he can create the concepts he was shown and explained to create and just those.

In short: Stop just assuming things not shown.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Pretty sure Conceptual Manipulation on Dialga and Palkia's level is just Space-Time manipulation (seen someone here mention it before).

Well then you're going to have to create a revision thread because Arceus has Conceptual Manipulation listed on his profile and since its there its perfectly usuable for this fight.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Arceus's conceptual manipulation is in the form of the Creation of living entities who can do with the concepts as they please. I don't think that's the same thing as just creating the concepts yourself. I can understand why that would be difficult to swallow though, so I might as well mention Arceus canonically create the Trios to destroy their relevant concept as shown when it created the Creation Trio to destroy their own (the world).

This includes the being who embodies feelings and that of willpower. However, the destruction of these concepts are activated by special actions that Chara, being Incorporeal, would not be affected by, and would most likely be destroyed in an instant to matter in this battle anyway.

 

[DontTalk]

Well then you're going to have to create a revision thread because Arceus has Conceptual Manipulation listed on his profile and since its there its perfectly usuable for this fight.

Profiles always list the ability if part of the ability was demonstrated. So arceus should have conceptual manipulation on his profile, just that he can not use every aspect of this power. That is something that you shouldn't just assume to be meant just by being listed on the profiles.

For example part of fire manipulation is to extinguish fire, but not every fire manipulator can do that. They can non the less do fire manipulation though.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Profiles always list the ability if part of the ability was demonstrated. So arceus should have conceptual manipulation on his profile, just that he can not use every aspect of this power. That is something that you shouldn't just assume to be meant just by being listed on the profiles.

For example part of fire manipulation is to extinguish fire, but not every fire manipulator can do that. They can non the less do fire manipulation though.

So in other words you thought i meant Arceus can manipulate ALL concepts just because he has conceptual manipulation?

 

[DontTalk]

Arceus's conceptual manipulation is in the form of the Creation of living entities who can do with the concepts as they please.

When where dialga and palkia shown to manipulate the concepts of time or space?

They manipulated time and space, but that is different from manipulating the concepts of those. Manipulating the concepts of those, would basically mean they can change their own nature.


Aside from that do we know that if they cease to be their concepts ceases to be and not just the instances of the concept?


[I should probably read through the creation trio respect threads sometime, instead of just relying on my game and jewel of life knowledge.]