Arceus vs Chara

[Promestein]

The scene being canon doesn't mean it's not PIS.

Arceus has blatant Tier 2 feats. Stop downplaying.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Arceus bodies with no effort David. Heck, I argue that Arceus would beat Omega Flowey.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Arceus bodies with no effort David.
Heck, I argue that Arceus would beat Omega Flowey.

No

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

No

Well considering that Arceus is Omnipresent and has Infinite Speed, Flowey would likely be blitzed.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

A likely rating doesn't automatically mean someone is weaker, stop using that as an argument. Omega Flowey is a finite 2-A for being stronger than Chara because Chara is likely on the higher end of the tier 2-B.

Yes, but we currently know that there's only a finite amount until stated otherwise.

Agreed. I think it is safe to say that both characters are 2-B. Saying that they are not isn't a good argument. If you want to change there tier then that is a different post altogether.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A likely rating doesn't automatically mean someone is weaker, stop using that as an argument. Omega Flowey is a finite 2-A for being stronger than Chara because Chara is likely on the higher end of the tier 2-B.

Yes, but we currently know that there's only a finite amount until stated otherwise.

Agreed. I think it is safe to say that both characters are 2-B. Saying that they are not isn't a good argument. If you want to change there tier then that is a different post altogether.

I never said Chara wasnt 2-B, that's not my argument. I said the reason why Arceus should win is because Chara is likely a 2-B, meaning he is not accepted as a 100% solid 2-B by the entirety of this Wiki and, if it's wrong, then a revision thread for him must be made.

Meanwhile, Arceus is already accepted as a solid 2-B and is possibly higher than that too.

In other words, one is seemignly 2-B while the other is definitely 2-B and possibly more, suggesting one has greater strength over the other. Just how I am (or was) seeing it as.

 

[Talonmask]

I never said Chara wasnt 2-B, that's not my argument. I said the reason why Arceus should win is because Chara is likely a 2-B, meaning he is not accepted as a 100% solid 2-B by the entirety of this Wiki and, if it's wrong, then a revision thread for him must be made.

Meanwhile, Arceus is already accepted as a solid 2-B and is possibly higher than that too.

In other words, one is seemignly 2-B while the other is definitely 2-B and possibly more, suggesting one has greater strength over the other. Just how I am (or was) seeing it as.

You are simply rephrasing what I just told you not to use as an argument.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I never said Chara wasnt 2-B, that's not my argument. I said the reason why Arceus should win is because Chara is likely a 2-B, meaning he is not accepted as a 100% solid 2-B by the entirety of this Wiki and, if it's wrong, then a revision thread for him must be made.

Meanwhile, Arceus is already accepted as a solid 2-B and is possibly higher than that too.

In other words, one is seemignly 2-B while the other is definitely 2-B and possibly more, suggesting one has greater strength over the other. Just how I am (or was) seeing it as.

You are simply rephrasing what I just told you not to use as an argument.

Im rephrasing it so I can explain that I never said Chara wasnt 2-B I was arguing something else.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Please don't quote large blocks of text.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Well considering that Arceus is Omnipresent and has Infinite Speed, Flowey would likely be blitzed.

Omega Flowey is 2-A and has Immeasurable Speed (which is higher than Infinite if you didn't know).

So, no.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Omega Flowey is 2-A and has Immeasurable Speed (which is higher than Infinite if you didn't know).

So, no.

Oh wait he's 2-A? Well crap nevermind, yeah he'd lose to Omega Flowey then.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Omega Flowey is 2-A and has Immeasurable Speed (which is higher than Infinite if you didn't know).
So, no.

Oh wait he's 2-A? Well crap nevermind, yeah he'd lose to Omega Flowey then.

Unmeasurable is faster than infinite? doesn't make much senes as numbers begin to get so larget hat you can't measurel ong before infinity.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Unmeasurable is faster than infinite? doesn't make much senes as numbers begin to get so larget hat you can't measurel ong before infinity.

"Immeasurable" in our terms means "literally impossible to measure by normal standards". As in, a being who can move in more than three dimensions of space and one of time.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Unmeasurable is faster than infinite? doesn't make much senes as numbers begin to get so larget hat you can't measurel ong before infinity.

"Immeasurable" in our terms means "literally impossible to measure by normal standards". As in, a being who can move in more than three dimensions of space and one of time.

And how exactly does chara fit into that category? there are no feats of him being able to do that. He could move in a "timeless void" but that doesn't exactly mean unmeasurable (which I am going to debunk at one point or another. the entire undertale cast is kinda broken but I"m rolling with it)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And how exactly does chara fit into that category? there are no feats of him being able to do that. He could move in a "timeless void" but that doesn't exactly mean unmeasurable (which I am going to debunk at one point or another. the entire undertale cast is kinda broken but I"m rolling with it)

Existing beyond the basic 4-dimensions of a universe = immeasurable.

For example, Unrestricted Arceus would also be immeasurable, were he not omnipresent.

 

[Typhlosion130]

And how exactly does chara fit into that category? there are no feats of him being able to do that. He could move in a "timeless void" but that doesn't exactly mean unmeasurable (which I am going to debunk at one point or another. the entire undertale cast is kinda broken but I"m rolling with it)

Existing beyond the basic 4-dimensions of a universe = immeasurable.
For example, Unrestricted Arceus would also be immeasurable, were he not omnipresent.

And chara fits in this how?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And chara fits in this how?

By existing beyond the scope of the game's main world.

 

[Typhlosion130]

And chara fits in this how?

By existing beyond the scope of the game's main world.

I don't see how but we're getting off topic for the thread any how.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't see how but we're getting off topic for the thread any how.

Have you done the genocide ending? Because Chara explicitly destroys the game, and is the only thing remaining in the void that's left, and they are also able to restore it in perfect condition.

 

[Typhlosion130]

I don't see how but we're getting off topic for the thread any how.

Have you done the genocide ending? Because Chara explicitly destroys the game, and is the only thing remaining in the void that's left, and they are also able to restore it in perfect condition.

again we're getting off topic but yes I have. and Like I said I have a ton of disproving to do in the future because the tiering and such and feats of most of undertale have been blown out of preoportion due to ignoring some facts spread all around. doing that will takea while.

What I do know is that its stated chara sits there in a timeless void. that does not mean he exists beyond normal dimensions. just that he is capable of existing in a timless void.

(which I might add is very inaccurate. its not a timelss void its a dark wastland. you can hear the wind blowing as you wait for him to talk to you)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

again we're getting off topic but yes I have. and Like I said I have a ton of disproving to do in the future because the tiering and such and feats of most of undertale have been blown out of preoportion due to ignoring some facts spread all around. doing that will takea while.

What I do know is that its stated chara sits there in a timeless void. that does not mean he exists beyond normal dimensions. just that he is capable of existing in a timless void.

(which I might add is very inaccurate. its not a timelss void its a dark wastland. you can hear the wind blowing as you wait for him to talk to you)

I would suggest checking old Undertale threads, since much of the stuff trying to place characters below where they are now has been debunked multiple times, and I even made a blog post with justification purely for the verse's god tiers.

It is best to only make a thread if you have anything new to bring to the table, and not just things disproven many, many times before.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What Azzy said X2. Doubled because I tried what you were doing (to an albeit lesser extent) a while ago.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Well it will take a while. but there are details every where that in the end add up to countering most of it. the hard part is you can't just nit pick one thing or another right now... you have to do every thing at once which is why this is going to be hard.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well it will take a while. but there are details every where that in the end add up to countering most of it. the hard part is you can't just nit pick one thing or another right now... you have to do every thing at once which is why this is going to be hard.

I'm just telling you in advance than quite a few people have tried to do the same thing you're trying to do and nothing really changed

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Right...anyone's been keeping count?

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Nope, although Arceus has a lot more votes than Chara, I'll count right now.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Well I'll have to do it later, I have to go to school.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

Inconclusive, neither can take down the oppression permanently.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Just a thought I had, but does SAVE/LOAD actually work when someone is unconscious or asleep? Even though Frisk can reset when their entire being is destroyed, the only time an enemy (Papyrus) just knocked them out, they wasn't able to. It's kinda odd actually.

Also, could Arceus use a Master Ball on Chara? In the Pokemon world, basically anything non-human is considered a Pokemon, including ghosts of children, and concepts, so it could likely affect them. The ball is canonically capable of sealing and controlling beings as powerful as origin form Giratina, and Dialga and Palkia couldn't get out using time or space manipulation. And, although it isn't an important part of the main story like the prior 3 examples, so it could be considered game mechanics, it can also capture and control the physical manifestations of willpower, knowledge, and emotion themselves, so this is likely very high level mind-control. So could Arceus use a master ball to win?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

@Blahblah

SAVE/LOAD only happens when you die, Frisk didn't so they couldn't. Doesn't matter since we only count Max Determination Frisk to come back from Death and being erased.

Master Ball is a game mechanic definitely, I doubt humans in the Pokemon world could create something that can capture Tier 2 beings.

Also, it works only on Pokemon, Chara's a genocidal demon who is no longer bound to a physical body and embodies things like LOVE, EXP, Stats and so on.

So no, it won't work.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I thought Frisk was considered to have the ability to reset as well, since Flowey, who has less determination, could reset even with no one to kill him, and if they couldn't, then nothing would be stopping Sans or Alphys from trapping them in something to stop their rampage? Anyway, couldn't Arceus knock out Chara or put Chara to sleep to incapacitate them? And what do you mean we only count Max Determination Frisk as being able to come back from death? All throughout the game Frisk does it, even without max determination.

As for the master ball, Cipher himself says that it can capture any wild Pokemon, but that he doesn't need it for his plans (since he has the Red Chain). And team Galactic creates multiple devices capable of capturing 4D beings, why would the master ball be any different?

And, as I said, in the Pokemon world they consider anything living and non-human to be a Pokemon, even monsters, ghosts, demons, aliens, hyper-intelligent humanoid beings, and the embodiments of concepts, Chara would be no different.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I thought Frisk was considered to have the ability to reset as well, since Flowey, who has less determination, could reset even with no one to kill him, and if they couldn't, then nothing would be stopping Sans or Alphys from trapping them in something to stop their rampage? Anyway, couldn't Arceus knock out Chara or put Chara to sleep to incapacitate them? And what do you mean we only count Max Determination Frisk as being able to come back from death? All throughout the game Frisk does it, even without max determination.

As for the master ball, Cipher himself says that it can capture any wild Pokemon, but that he doesn't need it for his plans (since he has the Red Chain). And team Galactic creates multiple devices capable of capturing 4D beings, why would the master ball be any different?

And, as I said, in the Pokemon world they consider anything living and non-human to be a Pokemon, even monsters, ghosts, demons, aliens, hyper-intelligent humanoid beings, and the embodiments of concepts, Chara would be no different.

Without max determination Frisk can only come back by loading. MD frisk outright refuses to die.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Oh, that's what he meant? Okay.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I don't recall frisk ever resetting. It's mostly the player who does it, correct me if I'm wrong.

Frisk actually is able to reach their save file on their own as their battle with Asriel showed, even without dying.

In character, Arceus would not use a pokeball, nor would chara be considered a pokemon as its existence is governed by completely different rules.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Accessing their save file without dying is what I meant when I said resetting, I guess that was a poor choice of wording, sorry about that.

Oh yeah, I forgot this was in character, not that it matters anymore, but since in Pokemon they generally consider anything sentient and non-human to be a Pokemon, wouldn't verse equalization apply here?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

That's not strictly true. Arceus's true form isn't considered to be a pokemon, ironically enough.

"Could this pokemon be the physical manifestation of the Original Spirit?"

Also, due to physiological differences it would be faulty of us to assume aliens and the like from other franchises can be categorized as such.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I see, thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

You're welcome.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Inconclusive for reasons above.

(Although I'm not sure...)

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Inconclusive for reasons above