Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Again i need you to define what lore is since you seem to disconnect the two, and it's not a high end interpretation if there's a statement that said "Sasuke could use all the abilities of the Rinnegan" then he should have the powers of the Rinnegan and doesn't need to demonstrate it

In the case of Arceus. People are claiming that Arceus should have access to every move, because Mew has access to every move. The problem is that Arceus is specifically shown to not be able to use very move, and cannot learn moves that even his creation trio can, such a bulk-up.

To use your example, It's like if there was a statement that said Sasuke could use all the abilities of the Rinnegan, and then in the story, there was ability he couldn't use. And someone said we should ignore the fact that he couldn't use the ability, and say he can use the ability on the profile. It's kind of dishonest imo.

But in this ccase: There is no statement that says Arceus can learn any move.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This thread has become messy so let's clear a few things up.

This is originally about the Plates. I argued that the statements about the Plates do not justify Arceus having every move, ability, and power of every pokemon and non-pokemon.

The profile is currently claiming that Arceus has all the pokemon abilities. For example, Arceus has speed boost, shield dust, wonder guard, magic bounce, etc. all at once, at the same time. This is false because Arceus only has one ability, and is not recorded to have any other ability. (except in the game Pokemon conquest where he has three abilities).

The profile is also claiming that Arceus should be able to use any pokemon move. This is false because Arceus canonically cannot learn moves that other pokemon can, such as TM Focus Punch, Bulk-Up and other moves.

The argument that Arceus should be able to use those moves because he can create the pokemon who uses those moves doesn't stand, because the Creation Trio can learn TMs that Arceus can't. Pokemon can have powers that are independent of Arceus.

 

[Hasty12345]

I do think it’s funny that the outcome of this CRT is almost redundant atm given none of these abilities have been accepted to scale to low 1-C.

regardless of that, I think DT sums up the issues perfectly.

 

[Zencha9]

it seems like the proof you're using being game mechanics isn't the most reliable when it contradicts another character being able to learn all moves story wise so i think that's quite weak, if you have any other evidence then please post them

The creation thing is it's whole can of worms that honestly i am not the most knowledgeable about so i'll leave that

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

it seems like the proof you're using being game mechanics isn't the most reliable when it contradicts another character being able to learn all moves story wise so i think that's quite weak, if you have any other evidence then please post them

When has arceus been said to be able to learn all moves?

 

[Zencha9]

When has arceus been said to be able to learn all moves?

I think its name is mew

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I think its name is mew

This thread is about Arceus.

 

[Zencha9]

This thread is about Arceus.

I do not care
The point is using game mechanics contrdicts the story

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I do not care
The point is using game mechanics contrdicts the story

Okay. And I don't care about random statements. Gameplay, what's shown in the anime, and mangas trump everything else.

 

[Zencha9]

Okay. And I don't care about random statements. Gameplay, what's shown in the anime, and mangas trump everything else.

Aren't the mew statements from all across the media? that would make the anime manga and game trump over gameplay since it contradicts the three

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Aren't the mew statements from all across the media? that would make the anime manga and game trump over gameplay since it contradicts the three

The gameplay doesn't contradict Mew's statements. Mew can learn every teachable move in the game. And this is about Arceus.

 

[deonment]

Okay. And I don't care about random statements. Gameplay, what's shown in the anime, and mangas trump everything else.

No, it doesn't this is wrong, we use gameplay as a secondary source when it comes to games, with statements, showings, and feats taking the prime canon, and the dismissal of Mew's direct and repetitive statements via the use of it being unable to do, being only able to learn all moves teachable by its level up pool, tutors, TMs, TRs, and HMs, so in-game is quite egregious as an argument, given that you are ignoring the context that surrounds said statement, that being the fact that it is repeated to no end that that capability comes from the fact that it has the genetic structure of all pokemon/is the ancestor of all pokemon, so to limit this to only its in-game learn pool is quite excretable.

Spoiler: And in case scans are requested of me

Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques.
-Silver, Soul Silver and Y Pokedex Entries for Mew

Because it can learn any move, some people began research to see if it is the ancestor of all Pokémon.
-Crytsal Pokedex Entry for Mew

Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon.
-Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, Black 2, White 2, X, Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl Pokedex Entries for Mew

As for the rest of the CRT, I do not care, I just saw this and had to argue against this as this is one of the worst arguments I have seen regarding Mew, and felt the necessity to debunk it.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No, it doesn't this is wrong, we use gameplay as a secondary source when it comes to games, with statements, showings, and feats taking the prime canon, and the dismissal of Mew's direct and repetitive statements via the use of it being unable to do, being only able to learn all moves teachable by its level up pool, tutors, TMs, TRs, and HMs, so in-game is quite egregious as an argument, given that you are ignoring the context that surrounds said statement, that being the fact that it is repeated to no end that that capability comes from the fact that it has the genetic structure of all pokemon/is the ancestor of all pokemon, so to limit this to only its in-game learn pool is quite excretable.
As for the rest of the CRT, I do not care, I just saw this and had to argue against this as this is one of the worst arguments I have seen regarding Mew, and felt the necessity to debunk it.

Worst argument?

The worst argument is this pedantic reasoning that every statement must be taken to the its most highest and widest interpretation even though NO source material does so. Mew can learn every teachable move in the game, goes hand in hand with its statements and is a fair depiction of this statement.

But that's not enough. The fact that Mew doesn't learn literally every single move in the game somehow means we need to disregard actual gameplay and just base the profiles off chosen statements. It's ridiculous and dishonest.

Let me ask you a question: In the anime, and manga, does Mew use every move in existence?

And how is it that Mew has the DNA of every pokemon, when Arceus, the creation Trio, and Lake trio all predate it? And how does Mew have the DNA of pokemon that has come after it? Pokemon that are man-made and do not reproduce.

This is why I keep saying this is a No Limits Fallacy. The fact that your argument is that it is impossible for statements form the game to have limits in the same game its from. (When there are literally clear limits.)

AND I SHALL REPEAT! This is about Arceus not Mew. Stop derailing.

 

[Moritzva]

Remember that Cal agrees with my stance against the plates as reasoning.

I know, we talked about it over discord. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the pages should still be changed to better reflect reasoning besides "the plates", because that's pretty weak evidence on it's own.

 

[Sniper670]

Alright it's been a bit, so i'll add up agrees and disagrees (bolded means a member of staff)

Agrees: 8 Regular + 1 Staff (@Iamunanimousinthat, @Hasty12345, @Rikimarox2, @InfiniteDay, @Paul_Frank, @Comicgyal, @DontTalkDT, @JoshSSJGod), @TheGreatMaster12

Disagrees: 14 Regular + 1 staff (@Yemma670, @Arceus0x, @Chariot190, @Thelastmlg, @The_Pink_God, @JustANormalPerson01, @hajime, @Robot972, @Moritzva, @ZetaMarishi , @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Pikaman, @GodlyCharmander, @Luckyfun , @The_real_cal_howard

Inconclusive/No Opinion: 1 Staff ([B][USER=2943]@Everything12[/B], Agrees with True Form Arceus having everything), @Purgy(fine with Possibly), @ Zencha9(Agree with True Form Having it), @Vietthai96,[/B]

 

[InfiniteDay]

Alright it's been a bit, so i'll add up agrees and disagrees (bolded means a member of staff)

Please just let me do it, your messing up the links and aren't counting up the people correctly.

Agrees: 8 Regular + 1 Staff (@Iamunanimousinthat, @Hasty12345, @Rikimarox2, @InfiniteDay, @Paul_Frank, @Comicgyal, @DontTalkDT, @JoshSSJGod, @TheGreatMaster12)

Disagrees: 14 Regular + 1 staff (@Yemma670, @Arceus0x, @Chariot190, @Thelastmlg, @The_Pink_God, @JustANormalPerson01, @hajime, @Robot972, @Moritzva, @ZetaMarishi, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Pikaman, @GodlyCharmander, @Luckyfun , @The_real_cal_howard)

Inconclusive/No Opinion: 3 regular + 1 Staff (@Everything12, Agrees with True Form Arceus having everything), @Purgy (fine with Possibly), @Zencha9 (Agreed with True Form Having it), @Vietthai96)

It is to be noted both @The_real_cal_howard and @Moritzva think that the Plates are too flimsy of evidence to support Arceus having all powers, and instead support Arceus having all powers because of Eternal Battle Reverie.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This thread is about the plates. Another thread can be made about using the battle reverie.
Its already getting cluttered.

 

[Sniper670]

The Plates is the biggest evidence for Arceus getting all powers. Eternal Battle Reverie is secondary and almost irrelevant. Unown can do the exact same thing

レジェンドプレート
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。

Translation :

Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon

 

[Sniper670]

This thread is about the plates. Another thread can be made about using the battle reverie.
Its already getting cluttered.

No more threads about nothing. Enough with trying to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No more threads about nothing. Enough with trying to fix something that isn't broken.

The plates don’t hold up. The majority of the staff, including hal agrees.

 

[Sniper670]

The plates don’t hold up. The majority of the staff, including hal agrees.

The Plates hold up as they are.

Why the heck does eternal battle reverie have more evidence than what is written directly on the plates

 

[Hasty12345]

At this point, we all know the legend plate quote by heart

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The Plates hold up as they are.

Why the heck does eternal battle reverie have more evidence than what is written directly on the plates

Because they can be better interpreted as the plates boosting pokemon, and changing Arceus’s type, and not as giving Arceus every ability, move, and power of pokemon and non-pokemon.

 

[Sniper670]

Arceus can nullify all powers with steel plate, defy the laws of nature with water plate. His Flame plate was too much for the Lake Trio and burned an entire forest with just its presence. Took Control of Heatran and reached for the heavens

Arceus has the powers of all things and with the Plates, there is nothing he cannot do. Simple as that. Eternal Battle Reverie is irrelevant. Unown can do the exact same thing, and guess where Unown is getting his powers from, Plates


Going purely by the lore surrounding the plates, and standards that has already been accepted by the wiki for years, it's baffling how this crt hasn't already been closed.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Arceus has the powers of all things and with the Plates, there is nothing he cannot do.

Except learn Focus Punch and Bulk Up.

 

[Sniper670]

Because they can be better interpreted as the plates boosting pokemon, and changing Arceus’s type, and not as giving Arceus every ability, move, and power of pokemon and non-pokemon.

Changing Arceus type allows him to nullify all attacks with steel plates and defy the laws of nature with water plate. And the answer we were given was "this is Arceus power"


How tf else would you think he changes type, to use Judgment only?

And no

レジェンドプレート
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。

Translation :

Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon

The Legend plate doesn't boost any Power and can be used on Arceus alone. It's always "when used on a certain Pokémon" referencing Arceus

 

[Hasty12345]

Arceus can nullify all powers with steel plate, defy the laws of nature with water plate. His Flame plate was too much for the Lake Trio and burned an entire forest with just its presence. Took Control of Heatran and reached for the heavens

Arceus has the powers of all things and with the Plates, there is nothing he cannot do. Simple as that. Eternal Battle Reverie is irrelevant. Unown can do the exact same thing, and guess where Unown is getting his powers from, Plates


Going purely by the lore surrounding the plates, and standards that has already been accepted by the wiki for years, it's baffling how this crt hasn't already been closed.

I’m glad a supposed low 1-C object can burn down a forest

 

[Sniper670]

Except learn Focus Punch and Bulk Up.

Silly. They're all loaded on the plates and he can use them if he wanted.

Nothing here will have any influence on the plates. In the end, Arceus gets any benefits that comes from Plates

 

[Sniper670]

I’m glad a supposed low 1-C object can burn down a forest

Yes. It wasn't trying to do so. It was moving towards the heavens, back to Arceus. The forect thing is a side effect of him moving. I don't see your point here

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Silly. They're all loaded on the plates and he can use them if he wanted.

Nothing here will have any influence on the plates. In the end, Arceus gets any benefits that comes from Plates

Where is it stated the pokemon moves are loaded into the plates?
And i need a direct quote, not vague musings about powers.

 

[Sniper670]

Where is it stated the pokemon moves are loaded into the plates?
And i need a direct quote, not vague musings about powers.

レジェンドプレート
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。

Translation :

Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon

 

[Sniper670]

This is the Legend Plate, so that silly assessment that it means it gives 20% boost to other Pokémon won't work here, because it doesn't

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Translation :

That doesn’t say pokemon moves are loaded in the plates or that pokemon moves come from the plates

 

[Sniper670]

That doesn’t say pokemon moves are loaded in the plates or that pokemon moves come from the plates

The power of all things resides in the plate, so not only does it have all moves, it also has all powers in the verse

 

[Hasty12345]

HOW MANY TIMES ARE YOU GONNA POST THAT LEGEND PLATE QUOTE

 

[Sniper670]

HOW MANY TIMES ARE YOU GONNA POST THAT LEGEND PLATE QUOTE

How many times are you going to fail to give a reasonable counter for it

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The power of all things resides in the plate, so not only does it have all moves, it also has all powers in the verse

I rather think it means that it has the essence of all the typings which allows Arceus to change his type.
You meed more evidence that the plates allow him to use every move, have every ability, and have all the powers of pokemon and non-pokemon.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So yeah, first, I'll argue why the Original One (True Form Arceus) should keep all abilities and moves. First, let's take a look at "the Original Story".

• "In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos. At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg. Having tumbled from the vortex, the egg gave rise to the Original One. From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand. From itself again, three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and form them, spirit came to be. The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep."

⠀⠀— The Original Story

This already confirms that Palkia, Dialga and the Lake Trio are nothing but smaller parts of Arceus itself. Thus, Arceus is actually the entire Universe, reality, and all Pokemon. They are all smaller parts of the Original One, thus, this already gives us a reason to make True Arceus scale to them, since they are it. There isn't the need for the lore to go out of its way to showcase Arceus doing literally everything to satisfy the burden of proof. There is no anti-feat.

'Well, Arceus can't learn the TM Focus Punch'.

Let's look at this dialogue in Pokemon Platinum.

• "A Pokémon is said to have shaped this world. Could that Pokémon be the physical form of the original spirit?"

⠀⠀— Hiker

Implying that the Arceus we see in game is just a physical manifestation of the Original One, an Avatar. So Arceus not learning a TM isn't an Anti Feat for the Original One, but only it's Avatar.

This should already give us a decent basis to scale True Arceus to all Pokemon. But -


Diving into the plates
So yeah, Staff seems to believe that the Plates are a weak argument. But that's only because people did a really, really poor job at explaining them. Let's first state what the plates even are, still looking at dialogue from Platinum.

• "The Original One breathed alone before the universe came. When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate. The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate. Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One. Three beings were born to bind time and space. Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world."

⠀⠀— Hiker's Book

So, yeah, Arceus' shards became the plates. They are stated to be part of Arceus' Body.

• "生まれてくる　ポケモン プレートの力　わけあたえられるPokémon born with the power of the plate."

⠀⠀— Hiker's Book (Japanese Version)

Pokemon are born with the power of the plates, which are just Arceus itself.

Thus, saying "Well, The Creation Trio and The Lake Trio had types before the plates", I mean, yes, obviously. They are literally just a smaller piece of the creator of all types, Arceus, who became the plates. It's not a contradiction.



True Form Arceus should not lose its ability to use all moves and abilities, since all Pokemon are just parts of him. Furthermore, the plates themselves should also not lose said capability, because they are just Arceus.

 

[Sniper670]

I rather think it means that it has the essence of all the typings which allows Arceus to change his type.

Why tf do you think it changes type. Or you think they're just skins

You meed more evidence that the plates allow him to use every move, have every ability, and have all the powers of pokemon and non-pokemon.

I do not need more evidence. The plates make it Clear what it means. I even brought Japanese translations to back me up.

The power of all things are on the plates = it has all the powers

It's baffling how you're trying to give a different interpretation when it's clear what it means

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I rather think it means that it has the essence of all the typings which allows Arceus to change his type.
You meed more evidence that the plates allow him to use every move, have every ability, and have all the powers of pokemon and non-pokemon.

You are incorrect.
It means "The essence of all creation" in a literal sense. They are just shards of the creator of all existence after all.