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That's right, the right Genos beam is redirecting the left Psykorochi beam
Forgive me, but I'm a little lost on what exactly I'm looking at here. Is the beam on the right deflecting the beam on the left?
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Another OPM revision
- Thread starter Emirp sumitpo
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Ah. In that case, I change my mind completely. Matt made it sound as if the angle was extreme, but this is practically 90 degrees.
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I'm pretty sure the only reason Genos was listed as High 6-A was because we believed the beam that Psykos shot at Tatsumaki, and was intercepted by Genos, was the same beam that she used to lift a part of the earth. That attack Psykos used on Tatsumaki had a completely different form and shape than the previous one, and it doesn't look like the type of beam that can cut through something. Also, Genos was clearly struggling to deflect the beam, and seem to be in a paralyzed state immediately after the attack. I agree with matt.
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Genos was never High 6-A though... not without the True Spiral Incineration Cannon.
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If it's not the same beam type, how strong is it? On one hand, Psykorochi did get twisted up so she might be weaker. On the other hand, she regenerated and changed forms to produce the beam that true spiral incineration cannon matched with. She doesn't swing this beam like the others, including the original beam, but it's simpler to scale this beam to the beam that cut the earth since there's no way to definitively downscale/upscale.
I agree with Genos struggling to fully clash even at maximum output, but if the Psykorochi recalc is accepted we can still downscale that particular move to High 6-A. If we want to get specific we can discuss the individual tiering of all the other attacks.
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Her small beams can't by basic logic be as strong as her big beam because they cannot replicate the feat, the only reason she did a High 6-A feat was because of how big and wide the beam is.
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You have to prove that.
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It is called being intuitive.
Psykos' beam ONLY does the feat because of how big it is. A smaller beam wouldn't be able to cut the continent and there would be no feat. This is the issue that myself and many others have.
We have a scene where a small beam is redirect, falls on the ground, and destroys a single building. And don't give me crap about AoE. You can't talk about AoE and simultaneously have a character who is High 6-A solely because of AoE attacks.
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You literally have to prove it.
If it’s only High 6-A for AOE, that would imply the attack itself already had the force to do it, and the force itself doesn’t change because of size.
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- #171
So what did I miss and what has been concluded so far?
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Genos scaling is still being discussed, but I don’t see it going anywhere unless Matthew has a good counter.
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- #173
Ok. What about darkshine?
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I'm pretty certain that the proposals for Darkshine are approved, not entirely sure because I wasn't keeping up with this CRT too much.
Do other people agree with me that Black Sperm's regen should be taken down to low-high, though?
Do other people agree with me that Black Sperm's regen should be taken down to low-high, though?
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- #175
I think so. I'm pretty sur everyone agreed with that, I'll throw that in the op later
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Can someone remind me on what’s going on with the whole Darkshine/Garou/Rover stuff?
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- #177
Some people believe that darkshine's AP should scale to his dura. As of now, the only possibly 7-A thing to discuss is darkshine and his AP afaik
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- #178
No one has left anymore counters on why half monster low 7-B garou AP should scale to his dura, not yet at least
Nullflowerblush
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He didn't need to use a barrage in order to defeat it, seeing as how he tanked a punch from the Monster while off-guard.
And yea, these seem to suggest Pri-Pri-Prisoner is comparable to Melzargard.
Also, Melzargard isn't entirely a glass cannon.
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I think it should, since he could harm Garou, who in turn harmed him. If there's a counter to this or i'm unintentionally stonewalling, please tell me.
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- #181
Who are you referring to?
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Darkshine.
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- #183
His low 7-B self never harmed darkshine up until he started evolving to the latter. He never really injured darkshine before and could only knock him down
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Darkshine stated that he even doesn’t know how to harm himself, so his AP scaling to his dura is very questionable to me. However, he can be 7-A+ due to harming HM Garou, who backscales from Rover.
Nullflowerblush
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Orochi stabs Garou with his horns then, Garou counters Orochi's horns.
Orochi's horns are comparable to Garou's Durability, and Garou's Attack Potency is comparable to Orochi's horns.
Therefore, Garou's Attack Potency is comparable to his Durability.
Orochi's horns are comparable to Garou's Durability, and Garou's Attack Potency is comparable to Orochi's horns.
Therefore, Garou's Attack Potency is comparable to his Durability.
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So is this what Garou’s tier is looking like?
Large Town level+, up to Small City level | Small City level+, up to City level, possibly Mountain level+
Large Town level+, up to Small City level | Small City level+, up to City level, possibly Mountain level+
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- #187
Redirecting the horns are different from actually damaging them.
Yes, but in his Low 7-B half monster durability section, it's: Small City level+, possibly Mountain level, up to City level, possibly Mountain level+
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The scan you posted shows that he needed a barrage of punches to beat it. And you can see that that monster was able to harm him, causing his nose to bleed with its punch.
This and this doesn't imply that they are comparable. Puri and Metal Bat seem to avoid taking Melzalgard's hits, and Puri catches his tentacles, Bang instantly follows him by obliterating its head.
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Just to be clear- I am not advocating for scaling Darkshine's Dura to his AP, I'm advocating for scaling his AP to Spiral Garou's AP and bumping his durability up even further. After listening to Matt's argument, I agree that Darkshine and Spiral Garou could both be outright 7-A. If not that, they at least deserve a "possibly 7-A+", given Garou's crazy evolution after he took multiple Rover blasts to the chest and Darkshine's statements/impressive performance against Psykorochi.
The suggested Garou edit is going to make half-monster Garou a wholesale 7-B (I assume this means the Garou fought Rover). If I understand that right, Garou that fought Rover < Garou that fought Orochi <= Garou that fought Darkshine < Post-limiter Break Garou = Darkshine (just in AP terms). If his Zenkais are as sustantial as they seem, 2-3 zenkai boosts could pump Garou up a whole tier.
Now Darkshine's durability scales above his AP, but Spiral Garou's AP is not on par with Darkshine's durability. Garou was A) targetting pressure points and B) doing primarily internal damage (inferring from TTM's dialogue and the nature of WICF), which bypasses Darkshine's muscular durability in a way that a less focused attack of equal AP would not. Even then, a couple barrages from Garou with that skill bonus only did very minor damage to Darkshine who seems to be in prime physical condition, if not mental. On the other hand, Darkshine broke both Garou's shoulders with double superalloy bazooka and could have likely done the same with other powerful attacks like superalloy missile if Garou wasn't too fast for him. From a purely AP perspective Darkshine and Spiral Garou are pretty much on par.
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- #190
I disagree, possibly 7-A+ comes directly from the possibility of EC scaling to gouketsu, being much stronger than baseline isn't enough to shott you all the way up to 7-A+
Garou shouldn't be a wholesale 7-B, as he was still weaker than Rover, and was Rover even shrugged off his strongest attack. He should really just be Low 7-B via downscaling. It should be as of now:
Attack Potency: Large Town level+, up to Small City level | Small City level+, up to City level, possibly Mountain level+
Durability: Large Town level+, up to Small City level | Small City level+, possibly Mountain level+, up to City level, possibly Mountain level+
Darkshine should have outright 7-B, possibly 7-A+ AP as he completely wrecked Low 7-B+ Garou's dura. Then Garou could match him in AP
Nullflowerblush
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You kinda have to prove this.
By that logic, every time Garou and Bang is fighting an opponent, they're doing internal damage by attacking the opponent's pressure points, but we know that this is not the case since it is never stated as such.
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Didn't Garou hurt Darkshine with a kick?
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- #193
That was after he started to break his limiter
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- #195
It does. Garou after breaking his limiter could wreck darkshine
Nullflowerblush
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- Garou strikes Darkshine in the abdomen and knocks him away, causing him to bleed from his mouth
- Garou pressured Darkshine with his blows, even causing a nosebleed
- And yea, Garou kicks Darkshine in the gut and stuns him, leaving him briefly paralyzed and blank-eyed
Isn't that the Garou you're referring to? "Spiral Garou", as in this?
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Actually you have to prove the positive.
Psykos' beam is High 6-A because it is hundreds of miles wide and stretchs for thousands of miles, allowing it to slice through a chunk of the Earth the size of Australia.
Her smaller beams are not hundreds of miles wide, in fact most of them aren't even a hundred meters wide and they stretch for far, far less. When Psykos spams beams she isn't holding the beam for as long as she held that one beam that cut the continent, which seemed to go on for like a minute, given how everyone reacted to it happen and people cities away had to brace for impact from the wind it created.
You know how we measure power typically in the real world, right? It's in watts. Energy/time. A beam that is held for less time than Psykos' big beam would also be unable to create the same results because the beam is being produced and being dissipated much quicker overall. When she's spamming beams every second they absolutely cannot be as strong as her charged / prolonged beams. Just as the smaller beams cannot be as powerful as the larger beams.
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I don't have to prove the smaller beam isn't as powerful, your argument is that it only did as much damage as it did because of how big it is, implying that the size only mattered to spread out the attack, not affect the AP itself.
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So some stuff to add
- Durability scales to AP, if the AP is physical in question. Genos wouldn't get High 6-A durability for matching Psykos as an example, because his enhanced beams are irrelevant to his physicals
- AP does not inherently scale to durability. Stone Walls, Mighty Glaciers, and Brick Walls are all terms that exist for a reason. A character can be 8-C durability wise but only 9-A AP wise. The only time they would scale in a 1:1 ratio is if they physically harm themselves with their attacks due to the force.
- AP to durability scaling can work through intermediaries. Plenty of profiles have a 7-B durability feat, then X hurts the person with a punch, then Y hurts X. In this case their AP would scale to their durability, due to a chain existing
- Not every beam fired by Neuron Psykos is High 6-A, as evidence when the dragon mouths don't nuke country sized areas on missed shots. However, all of the beams fired from Psykos herself seems to carry similar or at least notable levels of power. Tornado explicitly mentioned that she needed to make sure none of Psykos' main beams hit the Earth in order to avoid more collateral damage.
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