Another OPM revision

[Matthew_Schroeder]

When exactly did I say Genos was just High 6-A?

When you argue that Genos scales to Psykos outright for blocking the tiny beams from her and Orochi in a panel.

Sure, it’s what’s stated even though you’re just assuming it’s the same meteor and it’s not actually stated to be, but actual feats put Genos higher.

You’re the one that brought it, mate, so you’re calling your own point meaningless.

It's a very easy assumption. The actual feats are ambiguous and impossible to quantify as there is no interaction between Genos' charged beam and Psykos' direct attack.

Scans of this being stated? And I literally never said Genos was comparable, I stated the fact that he can clash with her.

It's in Chapter 132 when she cuts the beam, Genos outright states her attack energy is immeasurable and that he can't understand it at all, indicating that it is far more powerful than anything in Genos' arsenal.

That’s blatantly incorrect. Matching beams, deflecting a blast and clashing with her is not “barely affecting.” And even if it was, literally none of that would be possible if Genos was damn near 1,500x weaker than her.

It actually is.

1. The only beam he matched that's worth any salt is when he used the True Spiral Incineration Cannon, the small beams and small attacks are logically far weaker than a full-power blast and therefore you can't argue they're High 6-A. Psykos' High 6-A feat happens SPECFICIALLY BECAUSE HOW BIG THE BEAM IS so a small beam would logically be weaker. This is not a AoE Fallacy its basic logic, a small attack from Psykos can't replicate her High 6-A feat.

2. Deflecting a blast is unquantifiable and also requires significantly less energy. You just say it needs to be comparable while proving that you don't understand physics and direction. Its far easier to redirect something that is in motion than to halt the motion entirely.

No, it really wouldn’t. You can’t be 10,000x weaker than someone and deflect their attacks, that’s not how Attack Potency works. You should know that. If Genos was 10,000x weaker, hell, even if he was ten times weaker, Psykorochi’s blasts would’ve gone straight through his.

No it's not, once again you show that you have no idea how physics work. Deflecting something does not require comparable energy because all you need to do to change something's direction is to apply force on a different direction, which will alter its trajectory. Its why in real life big freaking freighter ships can be completely diverted off their course and made to turn if something collides with them.

The majority of the essay in your second comment is irrelevant because you’re assuming I’m claiming Genos is High 6-A with every attack, which I never said. His current tiering of 6-A+ is fine and consistent with his actual feats.

It's not. High 6-A is only acceptable with his single ultimate attack. The move he uses to divert Psykos' beam is stated to be able to destroy the Giant Meteor, therefore it is at least 6-B.

 

[USklaverei]

But Genos did not try to deflect Psykos' attack, they ran into each other and collided, Psykos' beam jutted out, but Genos' beam still changed its trajectory.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But Genos did not try to deflect Psykos' attack, they ran into each other and collided, Psykos' beam jutted out, but Genos' beam still changed its trajectory.

Look at the scene, Psykos shoots her beam horizontally towards Tatsumaki while Genos fires his vertically up towards Psykos, they collide and them the trajectory is diverted.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

I'm fine with 7-A Darkshine. Like full blown. Being able to compete with Bang and take no damage from his blows, and harm Garou before he started to break his limiter to me shows he is worthy of the rating.

Agree with the downgrades on the other S-Class heroes.

I'd have Flashy Flash and Atomic Samurai only have "Possibly 7-A" because all they have is Darkshine's statement that they could defeat Garou.

About 6-A Genos. He only did that feat with a charged named attack as well, the one he said could destroy the Giant Meteor that would have wiped out Z-City. Personally I'd change 10-Second Mode Genos to:

Attack Potency: Unknown Physically, At least Small Country level, likely higher with Thunder Drill Cannon (Described it as capable of destroying the Giant Meteor that threatened Z-City in a single shot, and could also indirectly contend with Psykos' blasts, diverting their trajectory), Multi-Continent level with True Spiral Incineration Cannon.

Agree with this.

 

[Kin201]

@Nullflowerblush
Puri was about to get one-shot by Melzalgard if Bang didn't protect him.

https://official-hot.eorzea.us/manga/Onepunch-Man/0032-052.png

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Atomic Samurai's focused slash was retconned, why are we discussing it

 

[Axxtentacle]

Murata got rid of it in the redraw? Sad. Either way, I don’t think Mid-High should be on the profile considering the justification is literally if he has cells left.

We aren’t discussing it anymore.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My opinion is that Darkshine qualifies for legitimately 7-A for being able to fight against enemies that can actually harm him and survive his blows, and Post-Orochi Garou qualifies as well.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

@Nullflowerblush
Puri was about to get one-shot by Melzalgard if Bang didn't protect him.

https://official-hot.eorzea.us/manga/Onepunch-Man/0032-052.png

Nothing implies that PPP would have been one-shot by Melzargard. PPP wasn't scared of his attack and seemed to be preparing to block or counter it. The only reason Iaian was fear-mongering was because he had his arm blown off in one strike and just assumed Melzargard was some god, like how Genos assumed Gouketsu would require Saitama as well as a team of S-Class heroes after being stomped out by him,

 

[Kin201]

Melzalgard obliterated a monster that was equal to Deep Sea King with one strike whereas Puri needed a barrage of punches to beat it.

This and this imply Puri is comparable to Melzalgard?

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Yeah I don't think Puri is taking the attack that obliterated the body of someone equal to the guy that trounced him in the previous arc.

 

[LordTracer]

It's not. High 6-A is only acceptable with his single ultimate attack. The move he uses to divert Psykos' beam is stated to be able to destroy the Giant Meteor, therefore it is at least 6-B.

I literally said he would be 6-A+, not High 6-A, thank you very much.

When you argue that Genos scales to Psykos outright for blocking the tiny beams from her and Orochi in a panel.

Never said he scales outright, don’t put words in my mouth, thanks.

It's a very easy assumption. The actual feats are ambiguous and impossible to quantify as there is no interaction between Genos' charged beam and Psykos' direct attack.

The feats are not impossible to quantify. Psykos has High 6-A attack potency. Genos can temporarily clash with her attacks, although he is overpowered. Therefore, Genos’ AP is only slightly Psykos’, not over a thousand times weaker.

It's in Chapter 132 when she cuts the beam, Genos outright states her attack energy is immeasurable and that he can't understand it at all, indicating that it is far more powerful than anything in Genos' arsenal.

I just read through Chapter 132 and no such thing is stated. Provide scans. Matter of fact, Chapter 132 is the chapter where Genos matches and pierces through Psykos’ beam with the True Spiral Incineration Cannon, so saying she’s far above anything in his arsenal is blatantly false. Also feats > statements.

1. The only beam he matched that's worth any salt is when he used the True Spiral Incineration Cannon, the small beams and small attacks are logically far weaker than a full-power blast and therefore you can't argue they're High 6-A. Psykos' High 6-A feat happens SPECFICIALLY BECAUSE HOW BIG THE BEAM IS so a small beam would logically be weaker. This is not a AoE Fallacy its basic logic, a small attack from Psykos can't replicate her High 6-A feat.

Tell that to Psykos’ AP stat, which is literally just High 6-A. Also wow, Psykos’ smaller beams are weaker? It’s almost like I’ve been arguing Genos is weaker and downscales this whole time, but you’ve been ignoring that part. Also “basic logic” should tell you that Genos can’t be 1,500x weaker than her and clash with her attacks.

2. Deflecting a blast is unquantifiable and also requires significantly less energy. You just say it needs to be comparable while proving that you don't understand physics and direction. Its far easier to redirect something that is in motion than to halt the motion entirely.

Show me proof of something being deflected by something 1,500x weaker than it.

No it's not, once again you show that you have no idea how physics work. Deflecting something does not require comparable energy because all you need to do to change something's direction is to apply force on a different direction, which will alter its trajectory. Its why in real life big freaking freighter ships can be completely diverted off their course and made to turn if something collides with them.

I reiterate, show me proof of something being deflected by something 1,500x weaker than it. If you can’t do that, then your point has no weight behind it. And once again, because you keep ignoring this part, I am saying Genos downscales from Psykos. I did not once argue that he’s High 6-A from every attack, and I would appreciate if you stopped misinterpreting my stance.

 

[USklaverei]

Look at the scene, Psykos shoots her beam horizontally towards Tatsumaki while Genos fires his vertically up towards Psykos, they collide and them the trajectory is diverted.

No, you can see here that God Blast was aimed at Genos and not Tatsumaki.

 

[Kin201]

Actually, Chapter 132 is the chapter that shows Psykos slices the edge of the Earth, but Viz treated it as 130 for some reasons.

 

[FinePoint]

Atomic Samurai's focused slash was retconned, why are we discussing it

Isn't it still in the webcomic, or am I misremembering?

 

[Kin201]

Isn't it still in the webcomic, or am I misremembering?

No. He was also stomped in the webcomic, he was utterly powerless against BS.

 

[FinePoint]

No. He was also stomped in the webcomic, he was utterly powerless against BS.

Ah. Yes, in that case it's not worth discussing, my apologies.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, you can see here that God Blast was aimed at Genos and not Tatsumaki.

This is not the scene I was talking about and Genos was overpowered anyways so I'm not sure why you think it scales.

 

[USklaverei]

Yes, it was dominated, but the difference is not as stark as you think it is.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I literally said he would be 6-A+, not High 6-A, thank you very much.

Irrelevant because he has no feats to justify either scaling, all he does is deflect a blast by hitting it at an angle which is not enough for scaling.

Never said he scales outright, don’t put words in my mouth, thanks.

Then why do you use Genos matching small beams as a supporting argument. What do you think you're proving if you don't agree that is enough for scaling to begin with. Are you just trying to make your argument seem better by tacking stuff on it? I don't understand the point of even bringing it up.

The feats are not impossible to quantify. Psykos has High 6-A attack potency. Genos can temporarily clash with her attacks, although he is overpowered. Therefore, Genos’ AP is only slightly Psykos’, not over a thousand times weaker.

You literally proved my point. You are using guess-work here. You THINK it sounds reasonable for Genos to only be a few times weaker when this is clearly not the case in the story. Genos is portrayed as completely over his depth and easily overpowered by a casual Psykos even when he uses all of his power. He can't compete with her at all. Deflecting a blast is not sufficient to scale, you clearly don't understand how inertia and directions work if you think otherwise.

I just read through Chapter 132 and no such thing is stated. Provide scans. Matter of fact, Chapter 132 is the chapter where Genos matches and pierces through Psykos’ beam with the True Spiral Incineration Cannon, so saying she’s far above anything in his arsenal is blatantly false. Also feats > statements.

Feats and statements alike prove that Genos is much weaker. "Chapter 132" seems to be a confusion with VIZ, it was Chapter 132 when it was originally being released online all those months ago. Genos does comment that he can't comprehend the scale of power Psykos is operating in and that her energy is immeasurable.

The True Spiral Incineration Cannon works like a drill to disperse the flat beam from Psykos, I would argue that even there it's not 100% scaling because the spiral beam works to disperse the beam by drilling into it. I agree it should be High 6-A on itself but it's not comparable in the slightest.

Tell that to Psykos’ AP stat, which is literally just High 6-A. Also wow, Psykos’ smaller beams are weaker? It’s almost like I’ve been arguing Genos is weaker and downscales this whole time, but you’ve been ignoring that part. Also “basic logic” should tell you that Genos can’t be 1,500x weaker than her and clash with her attacks.

You are working entirely out of incredulity here. Psykos' small beams are indeed weaker, we have one example of a beam from Psykos which only destroys a building when it hits the ground, and the small beams she spams are naturally weaker than those those that she charges.

Basic Logic is irrelevant when you prove to be completely inept at understanding basic science and how something with far less energy and weight than another thing can redirect its movement by altering its trajectory. Changing a thing's trajectory literally only requires the other thing having weight and being affected by gravity, its not required to have a matching AP at all.

I reiterate, show me proof of something being deflected by something 1,500x weaker than it. If you can’t do that, then your point has no weight behind it. And once again, because you keep ignoring this part, I am saying Genos downscales from Psykos. I did not once argue that he’s High 6-A from every attack, and I would appreciate if you stopped misinterpreting my stance.

Proof is basic science. The attack has weight because Genos' beams are heated plasma which naturally has mass. Psykos' beams are also some kind of energy, and you will be shocked to learn that energy actually has mass. The only thing that doesn't have mass is ******* photons.

Downscaling is a fallacy in 90% of the cases where people try to apply, Genos does nothing to justify a 6-A, you just want it cause it sounds nice.

 

[LordTracer]

Irrelevant because he has no feats to justify either scaling, all he does is deflect a blast by hitting it at an angle which is not enough for scaling.

He very clearly does, and deflecting a blast from someone is absolutely enough for scaling. I’m pretty sure you’re the only person that thinks it isn’t.

Then why do you use Genos matching small beams as a supporting argument. What do you think you're proving if you don't agree that is enough for scaling to begin with. Are you just trying to make your argument seem better by tacking stuff on it? I don't understand the point of even bringing it up.

Now I’m convinced you’re not even paying attention, so let me simplify my argument for you.

Psykos is High 6-A. Genos can clash with her attacks on more than one occasion, although he is stated to be weaker. Therefore, he would downscale to 6-A+.

You literally proved my point. You are using guess-work here. You THINK it sounds reasonable for Genos to only be a few times weaker when this is clearly not the case in the story. Genos is portrayed as completely over his depth and easily overpowered by a casual Psykos even when he uses all of his power. He can't compete with her at all. Deflecting a blast is not sufficient to scale, you clearly don't understand how inertia and directions work if you think otherwise.

Ironic that you’re claiming I’m using guesswork when you’re saying it’s reasonable for Genos to be 1,500x weaker than someone he can clash with and you’re assuming the meteor that Genos referred to is the Low 6-B one. Genos not being able to compete with Psykos at all and being drastically overpowered is a blatant lie that contradicts what is directly shown in the manga.

If Genos was Low 6-B, and he clashed with Psykos like he did here, Psykos’ blast would’ve gone straight through and obliterated him. And no, Genos admitting that she overpowered him does not mean he doesn’t scale whatsoever. They blatantly clash for a moment before Psykos’ blast gets through (and it doesn’t even completely go through), which shows that Genos can downscale.

If he was Low 6-B and attempted to deflect her blast (which was intended to kill Tatsumaki, since you’re trying to claim all of Psykos’ attacks that Genos blocked were casual) like this, his blast would’ve been instantly overtaken and it would’ve had no effect.

If Genos was Low 6-B and directly clashed with Psykos’ blasts here, there wouldn’t be a clash. Her beams would’ve shot straight through Genos’.

No part of Genos’ feats point to him being Low 6-B. Nothing points to him being Low 6-B apart from you assuming Genos meant the same meteor that would’ve destroyed City Z. Basic knowledge of how the Attack Potency system works should tell you that Genos cannot be Low 6-B and do all of that.

Feats and statements alike prove that Genos is much weaker. "Chapter 132" seems to be a confusion with VIZ, it was Chapter 132 when it was originally being released online all those months ago. Genos does comment that he can't comprehend the scale of power Psykos is operating in and that her energy is immeasurable.

The True Spiral Incineration Cannon works like a drill to disperse the flat beam from Psykos, I would argue that even there it's not 100% scaling because the spiral beam works to disperse the beam by drilling into it. I agree it should be High 6-A on itself but it's not comparable in the slightest.

And that statement is directly contradicted by Genos clashing with her and deflecting her attacks.

Basic Logic is irrelevant when you prove to be completely inept at understanding basic science and how something with far less energy and weight than another thing can redirect its movement by altering its trajectory. Changing a thing's trajectory literally only requires the other thing having weight and being affected by gravity, its not required to have a matching AP at all.

Wow, ad hominem, very nice, I was waiting for that to happen. Also I love how you didn’t provide any evidence of something being deflected by something 1,500x weaker than itself, like I asked for you to do. Also since basic logic is irrelevant, your point from earlier where you said:

This is not a AoE Fallacy its basic logic, a small attack from Psykos can't replicate her High 6-A feat.

Is now invalid. Good job.

Proof is basic science. The attack has weight because Genos' beams are heated plasma which naturally has mass. Psykos' beams are also some kind of energy, and you will be shocked to learn that energy actually has mass. The only thing that doesn't have mass is ******* photons.

Okay but show me an actual example of something being deflected by something 1,500x weaker than it. Surely you should be capable of providing evidence of such a thing, if you think it’s so obvious, right?

Downscaling is a fallacy in 90% of the cases where people try to apply, Genos does nothing to justify a 6-A, you just want it cause it sounds nice.

And we’re doing appeal to motive now too! Ironic how you claim I’m using a fallacy when you’ve used two in the same response. I also see you’ve neglected to explain why downscaling is a fallacy, and you’re just claiming that it is (similar to how you claim Genos was referring specifically to the Low 6-B meteor, and how you claim deflecting something isn’t grounds for scaling, and how you claim things can deflect something 1,500x stronger than themselves without proving any of these claims).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He very clearly does, and deflecting a blast from someone is absolutely enough for scaling. I’m pretty sure you’re the only person that thinks it isn’t.

It's not my fault everyone else doesn't understand how mass, gravity, and direction works. I don't care if more people think its fine to scale when he clearly can't match the power.

Psykos is High 6-A. Genos can clash with her attacks on more than one occasion, although he is stated to be weaker. Therefore, he would downscale to 6-A+.

Incorrect. He only clashes with weak attacks that aren't High 6-A. You can't prove that her small blasts are comparable to her big blast because the only reason she does a High 6-A feat is AoE.

Ironic that you’re claiming I’m using guesswork when you’re saying it’s reasonable for Genos to be 1,500x weaker than someone he can clash with and you’re assuming the meteor that Genos referred to is the Low 6-B one. Genos not being able to compete with Psykos at all and being drastically overpowered is a blatant lie that contradicts what is directly shown in the manga.

IT is correct, he can't compete with her at all and he nearly dies to match a single blast. It's crazy how you can read that and think he's competable.

If Genos was Low 6-B, and he clashed with Psykos like he did here, Psykos’ blast would’ve gone straight through and obliterated him. And no, Genos admitting that she overpowered him does not mean he doesn’t scale whatsoever. They blatantly clash for a moment before Psykos’ blast gets through (and it doesn’t even completely go through), which shows that Genos can downscale.

Incorrect, it's just a case where a weaker person can temporarily hold it which is not grounds for downcaling.

If he was Low 6-B and attempted to deflect her blast (which was intended to kill Tatsumaki, since you’re trying to claim all of Psykos’ attacks that Genos blocked were casual) like this, his blast would’ve been instantly overtaken and it would’ve had no effect.

No, because I just explained time and again how mass and gravity works and you refuse to accept it, this is one of the cases where the power blatantly doesn't matter, its just a deflection.

If Genos was Low 6-B and directly clashed with Psykos’ blasts here, there wouldn’t be a clash. Her beams would’ve shot straight through Genos’.

These attacks are not High 6-A so your point is irrelevant.

Wow, ad hominem, very nice, I was waiting for that to happen. Also I love how you didn’t provide any evidence of something being deflected by something 1,500x weaker than itself, like I asked for you to do. Also since basic logic is irrelevant, your point from earlier where you said:

Its not an ad-hominen, you are literally proving that you understand how force, mass and direction works in insisting that you need to be comparable in strength to deflect something. All your arguments are personal belief which are not supported by science.

Is now invalid. Good job

It's incredible how you strawman my point here. It's not invalid my dude. Psykos literally only does a High 6-A feat with a big beam therefore a small beam is weaker. A child can understand this, the smaller beams being weaker is an intuite thinking that any human is capable of.

And we’re doing appeal to motive now too! Ironic how you claim I’m using a fallacy when you’ve used two in the same response. I also see you’ve neglected to explain why downscaling is a fallacy, and you’re just claiming that it is (similar to how you claim Genos was referring specifically to the Low 6-B meteor, and how you claim deflecting something isn’t grounds for scaling, and how you claim things can deflect something 1,500x stronger than themselves without proving any of these claims).

Downcaling is a fallacy because a character barely contending with another's casual effort creates outliers when its just supposed to show that a character is weaker than another. Genos in the examples you show thus absolutely nothing with Psykos that warrant scaling, because deflecting a beam and clashing with small beams are in neither instance comparable to her giant beam that was hundreds of kilometers in width and crossed thousands of kilometers. No attack that Psykos does is remotely on that same scale.

 

[FinePoint]

I find myself agreeing with Matt here.
Downscaling is inherently faulty, and the + rating should only be given it can be proven mathematically that they are within the high end of a tier.

 

[Ped2018]

Agree with Matt too

 

[LordTracer]

It's not my fault everyone else doesn't understand how mass, gravity, and direction works. I don't care if more people think its fine to scale when he clearly can't match the power.

Right, because everyone’s wrong except for you?

Incorrect. He only clashes with weak attacks that aren't High 6-A. You can't prove that her small blasts are comparable to her big blast because the only reason she does a High 6-A feat is AoE.

You haven’t actually provided any proof to say that the strength of her attacks are based on size.

IT is correct, he can't compete with her at all and he nearly dies to match a single blast. It's crazy how you can read that and think he's competable.

”nearly dies” Is that why he continues to fight and only starts to run out of energy four whole chapters later?

Incorrect, it's just a case where a weaker person can temporarily hold it which is not grounds for downcaling.

It absolutely is. Especially when the gap is nowhere near as monumental as you think it is.

No, because I just explained time and again how mass and gravity works and you refuse to accept it, this is one of the cases where the power blatantly doesn't matter, its just a deflection.

You still have not proven why power doesn’t matter, and I asked you to provide an example of what you’re claiming, yet you’ve failed to do so.

These attacks are not High 6-A so your point is irrelevant.

You have not proven that, moving on.

Its not an ad-hominen, you are literally proving that you understand how force, mass and direction works in insisting that you need to be comparable in strength to deflect something. All your arguments are personal belief which are not supported by science.

Right, because calling someone inept isn’t ad hominem, sure. And once again, I have asked you to provide an example of what you’re claiming and you still have not done so.

It's incredible how you strawman my point here. It's not invalid my dude. Psykos literally only does a High 6-A feat with a big beam therefore a small beam is weaker. A child can understand this, the smaller beams being weaker is an intuite thinking that any human is capable of.

Okay, but where’s your proof to support this? Where in the manga does it state that her beams change strength depending on size? Because you haven’t provided this evidence, and earlier you claimed it was just “basic logic,” which you later claimed was irrelevant.

Downcaling is a fallacy because a character barely contending with another's casual effort creates outliers when its just supposed to show that a character is weaker than another. Genos in the examples you show thus absolutely nothing with Psykos that warrant scaling, because deflecting a beam and clashing with small beams are in neither instance comparable to her giant beam that was hundreds of kilometers in width and crossed thousands of kilometers. No attack that Psykos does is remotely on that same scale.

Prove. That. Her. Beams. Change. Strength. Based. On. Size. Show me a scan that says this. Also I showed an example of Genos deflecting a beam that was not casual and intended to kill Tatsumaki, so let’s not go back to claiming every attack he blocked was casual. You have also failed to prove that Genos deflecting her beams doesn’t warrant scaling, you just continue to claim that’s the case. I’ve even asked you to provide an example of a situation where something gets deflected by something 1,500x weaker than it and you consistently ignore that. Is there a reason you can’t do that, when it’d actually help your point? You act like it’s so obvious, so surely you should be able to provide evidence of such a thing happening.

Also, if you could provide another example on this site of deflecting someone’s attack not being enough to scale, that would be great. Seriously, I’d love to see it.

 

[LordTracer]

I find myself agreeing with Matt here.
Downscaling is inherently faulty, and the + rating should only be given it can be proven mathematically that they are within the high end of a tier.

Actually, if you look at the Attack Potency page, it says:
The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack.

 

[Ourosboros]

My opinion is that Darkshine qualifies for legitimately 7-A for being able to fight against enemies that can actually harm him and survive his blows, and Post-Orochi Garou qualifies as well.

I agree with this. If the Garou that fought Rover is going to be 7-B now and then he gets a Zenkai against Orochi, then gets stomped by Darkshine (he was able to redirect Darkshine's movement true, but hundreds of blows from post-Orochi Garou did nothing and a single attack put Garou into a near-death experience... one-shotting somebody without regen/reactive evolution like Garou).

Darkshine does go on to lose against Spiral Garou, but it's not an AP stomp, in fact they're comparable in AP. Darkshine's Double Superalloy Bazooka was able to do significant damage to Garou. Garou won that fight not via AP, but by skill and speed. His attacks were damaging Darkshine internally by bypassing his muscular durability and even then Darkshine came out of the fight with a nosebleed, but otherwise in perfect fighting condition. If spiral Garou is 7-A, possibly 7-A+, so is Darkshine's AP.

 

[FinePoint]

Actually, if you look at the Attack Potency page, it says:
The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack.

Who does Genos defeat with a casual attack that puts him at 6-A+?

 

[LordTracer]

Who does Genos defeat with a casual attack that puts him at 6-A+?

It’s the opposite.

Genos, on more than one occasion, clashes with Psykos and deflects her blasts. Psykos is only slightly above baseline, hence why he would downscale.

 

[LordTracer]

Honestly, Matt, if you can provide a single example of something deflecting something 1,500x stronger than itself, I will concede this argument.

 

[FinePoint]

It’s the opposite.

Genos, on more than one occasion, clashes with Psykos and deflects her blasts. Psykos is only slightly above baseline, hence why he would downscale.

That is precisely what Matt, and the people that agree with him have a problem with. Powerscaling can't just be used in reverse like that.

Honestly, Matt, if you can provide a single example of something deflecting something 1,500x stronger than itself, I will concede this argument.

You can simply deduce this mathematically. The lower the angle of incidence upon an object, the less total force imparted upon it.

 

[LordTracer]

You can simply deduce this mathematically. The lower the angle of incidence upon an object, the less total force imparted upon it.

Okay, but I want to see an actual example of this happening to such an extreme degree. If this can be provided, I will concede.

That is precisely what Matt, and the people that agree with him have a problem with. Powerscaling can't just be used in reverse like that.

Care to explain why not?

 

[FinePoint]

Okay, but I want to see an actual example of this happening to such an extreme degree. If this can be provided, I will concede.

I'll look, but I don't promise anything.

Care to explain why not?

Because determining a high end is more practical than determining a low end. If a character is beaten by another, then there's no saying whether that character is 100x, 1000x, or even 1000000x weaker than the person who beat them, especially if it seems as if the stronger character is holding back in any way.
For example, I can rip a piece of paper with my bare hands, and a robot who is six trillion times stronger than me can also rip that same paper in the same way, but that does not mean the paper scales in any way to said robot, or even to me for that matter.

 

[LordTracer]

Because determining a high end is more practical than determining a low end. If a character is beaten by another, then there's no saying whether that character is 100x, 1000x, or even 1000000x weaker than the person who beat them, especially if it seems as if the stronger character is holding back in any way.
For example, I can rip a piece of paper with my bare hands, and a robot who is six trillion times stronger than me can also rip that same paper in the same way, but that does not mean the paper scales in any way to said robot, or even to me for that matter.

That’s not what downscaling is about though, that’s not even close to what it is. I’ll try to explain this as simply as possible.

Let’s say Character A performs a feat that’s baseline 8-B.
Character B comes in and fights Character A.
A is shown to be stronger than B, but B is still capable of blocking attacks from A or even clashing with them.
B is weaker than A, but not by any massive amount, and then B would downscale to High 8-C+.

If B was completely and totally overpowered, and A’s attacks went straight through B’s, then downscaling wouldn’t be possible.

 

[FinePoint]

That’s not what downscaling is about though, that’s not even close to what it is. I’ll try to explain this as simply as possible.

Let’s say Character A performs a feat that’s baseline 8-B.
Character B comes in and fights Character A.
A is shown to be stronger than B, but B is still capable of blocking attacks from A or even clashing with them.
B is weaker than A, but not by any massive amount, and then B would downscale to High 8-C+.

If B was completely and totally overpowered, and A’s attacks went straight through B’s, then downscaling wouldn’t be possible.

That is why we are arguing that the deflection isn't scalable. I don't have time to do an extensive search right now, but here's some data demonstrating that a simple angle change can be the difference between a bullet completely penetrating a sheet of metal and bouncing harmlessly off of it.

 

[LordTracer]

That is why we are arguing that the deflection isn't scalable. I don't have time to do an extensive search right now, but here's some data demonstrating that a simple angle change can be the difference between a bullet completely penetrating a sheet of metal and bouncing harmlessly off of it.

Psykos’ attacks weren’t going completely through Genos’ though, and the deflection was not the only thing Genos did. You forget that he directly clashed with her blasts from the Orochi heads.

As promised, I’ll concede that him deflecting Psykos’ blast isn’t enough to scale him, but let’s not act like that was the only thing he did.

 

[Ourosboros]

That is why we are arguing that the deflection isn't scalable. I don't have time to do an extensive search right now, but here's some data demonstrating that a simple angle change can be the difference between a bullet completely penetrating a sheet of metal and bouncing harmlessly off of it.

Surely there has to be a minimum Durability required to reflect a high amount of AP at the most convenient angle possible, because I think it's unlikely a bullet would bounce off a sheet of paper or a sheet of tin foil would deflect an artillery shell. Those are very extreme examples, but you'd have to have some certain small fraction of the energy/durability of any given attack to deflect said attack. I feel like if we knew the AP of the attack and looked at the angle of incidence we could downscale properly.

 

[FinePoint]

Surely there has to be a minimum Durability required to reflect a high amount of AP at the most convenient angle possible, because I think it's unlikely a bullet would bounce off a sheet of paper or a sheet of tin foil would deflect an artillery shell. Those are very extreme examples, but you'd have to have some certain small fraction of the energy/durability of any given attack to deflect said attack. I feel like if we knew the AP of the attack and looked at the angle of incidence we could downscale properly.

Well we supposedly have a value for how much stronger Psykos is than Genos. Could the scans of him clashing and deflecting be reposted, please? We could measure the angle of incidence and deduce exactly how much energy is being redirected by the angle.

 

[LordTracer]

He first deflects her beam here.
His Piercing Lightning Cannon clashes head-on with her here.
And he clashes with the Orochi heads here.

 

[FinePoint]

Forgive me, but I'm a little lost on what exactly I'm looking at here. Is the beam on the right deflecting the beam on the left?