Animal Man discussion

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then please quote the previous posts.

 

[Confluctor]

I don’t think we need these people as there is nothing left to add. So it’s best that we just move towards getting tiering system experts to scale the cosmology presented.

I’ll repost the summary of it here so they don’t have to scroll through the entire first page to find it.

1) The universe which is vast and interconnected spacetime with each part of the universe containing inside of itself the whole like cup and ring marks, dreams within a dream.

2) The space beyond all knowing which transcends space and time, functioning as a universe hidden behind ours, where thought becomes the template.

3) The third kingdom which sits at the top of the shamanistic hierarchy. Containing possibly an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds, that contain archetypes and by definition exist beyond space and time.

4) Worlds/lands beyond the third kingdom that act as a higher state of understanding and contain/encompass the World Soul which conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms as the “big idea.”

5) The Clear Light which exist as a sea of consciousness and state of pure mind behind the veil, where one’s very sense of self and other ceases to be. Functioning as the manifestation/abstract idea of the vast absence that lies behind reality and the middle ground between the implicate order and the rest of reality.

6) The Implicate Order functioning as a higher primal reality where all our dreams of perfect worlds, such as the worlds in the third kingdom and worlds beyond, as just an attempt to describe the nature of its infinite possibility. Treating everything that is, was, and shall be as both a hallucination and a story that can be written and edited by writers from Limbo.

Now the reason this is important is because to defeat Antagon and save the the universe after it was destroyed by Antagon. Buddy Baker would transcend into the space beyond all knowing and recreate the universe utilizing the power of imagination.

Additionally later on in Animal Man Buddy would wear the body of god tying together the three kingdoms. Then Buddy would enter The Clear Light before being pulled out of it, spiraling past the three kingdoms until he reached the worlds beyond the third kingdom. Inside the worlds beyond the third kingdom Buddy would find and take the soul of the world onto himself so he could defeat the spider queen. The Spider Queen is simply put an incomprehensible idea who comes from the dark non-place outside of the three kingdoms that was attempting to plague the soul of the world.

I mean, I already gave you an evaluation before but I can do it again. Here’s the evaluation.

1) We already agreed to keeping the page and just fixing it up.

2) Remove Animal Man’s wall level and scale his base to an alternate version of a bloodlusted Pre Crises Superman(Animal Man #24). Same bloodlusted Superman was capable of two shotting pre crises bizarro and defeating pre crises ultraman with his heat vision(Animal Man #24). And Animal Man was visually out performing both of them.

3) Add some abilities like existence erasure(Animal Man #12) and 4th wall awareness(Animal Man #24). As the yellow aliens who seem to refer to other characters as stories and treat the world they’re in as a a story, were just an Illusion created by Buddy because he didn’t fully understand his own powers(Animal Man #43). Buddy should also have death manipulation. Buddy was able to cast direct death(Animal Man #38) upon his opponent(Animal Man #38), immediately killing them.

4) Create two extra keys. The first key is for Animal Man after becoming a predecessor of the Animal masters. In this state Animal Man would recreate The Universe in the Space Beyond All Knowing(Animal Man #50). The second key is for wearing the body of god(Animal Man #89)/taking the The World Soul onto himself(Animal Man #89). The World Soul/Body of God is simply put the big idea of the three kingdoms. In this state Buddy defeated the Spider Queen(Animal Man #89). A being who comes from outside of the three kingdoms that was planning on taking the World Soul for herself.

This is basically it.

We’re still discussing the tiers however I can give you a rundown of them so far.

The interconnected Universe is 1-B because it is a spacetime where each part of the universe contains the whole inside of itself(Animal Man #14) with the relationship being like a dream within a dream(Animal Man #19). Which would would create a kind of a recursive hierarchy where each part contains inside of itself the the dream of another universe over again, and over again to the point where even The Writer wonders who’s dreaming who?(Animal Man #19)

The Space Beyond All Knowing is low 1-A because it’s a place not of time and space, functioning as the template of thought that forms the space of dreams(Animal Man #50).

The third kingdom is 1-A+ because it is a hierarchy of potentially an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds(Animal Man #86) that by definition transcend the limits of our minds, time, and space. (Animal Man #84).

The worlds beyond the third kingdom are High 1-A for being completely transcendent to the third kingdoms hierarchy going as far to even contain The World Soul(Animal Man #87), which is both a unity of the three kingdoms and conceptually encompasses the three kingdoms as the big idea(Animal Man #86). Making the worlds beyond the third kingdom even greater than the idea of an outerversal hierarchy. Putting the Worlds beyond the Third Kingdom above any extension of 1-A.

The Clear Light/Great Light is also High 1-A for it being a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality(Animal Man #12), from which the continuous process of creation and destruction unfolds. Meaning the entire structure of the three kingdoms and the worlds beyond the three kingdoms completely form from The Clear Light(Animal Man #87) as a pattern or vortex of life. It’s also a vast sea of consciousness and pure mind beyond the restrictions of self(Animal Man #87), functioning as the middle ground(Animal Man #24) between the Implicate Order/CBL.

And finally, the Implicate Order/CBL is straight up tier 0 for being a higher primal world beyond all possible ideal worlds in the cosmology(Animal Man #19), which would include all possible worlds in the Third Kingdom and all possible worlds beyond the third kingdom. Making it essentially beyond any extension of high 1-A since all the worlds in the third kingdom and worlds beyond the third kingdom are just an attempt to describe the implicate Orders/CBL infinite possibility. It also seems to regard the rest of the cosmology as a story to be read for entertainment(Animal Man #24). Including even the Clear Light in this case which in relation to the Implicate Order is simply regarded as a middle ground between reality and the higher world or a door into the impossibleness of the Implicate Order(Animal Man #24).

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12

What tiers do you think seem warranted based on the following information?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/animal-man-discussion.131323/post-4597934

 

[First_Witch]

Sorry Ant, im not doing anything comic related.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I already gave an input based on my knowledge in comics and the scans and explanation provided there are lots of gaps and things that just from a basic knowledge dont correlate, so yes I think using different cosmologies of different authors gives room to wank cosmology greatly, and this thread can wait.
So far i am neutral but i dont really agree with the tiering.

As someone who knows nothing about comics let me try and address some concerns
1. For the 1B

• where does Issue 14 and 19 correlate? as taking a single page from each comics without prior correlation can be misleading
• It is said "each universe are just a mirror of each other" this is 2B or 2A not 1B
• same as the first point i brought up ( where each part of the universe contains the whole inside of itself(Animal Man #14) and dream within a dream(Animal Man #19). ) I dont even see any correlation between this two scans at all, they are clearly with two different context

2. for the low 1A

The Space Beyond All Knowing is low 1-A because it’s a place not of time and space, functioning as the template of thought that forms the space of dreams(Animal Man #50).

this is not low 1A "a universe beyond what our flesh knows" thats all that is relevant in this scans and from what i can see those are humans(3D) then that space is 4D.

3. for the 1A+

The third kingdom is 1-A+ because it is a hierarchy of potentially an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds(Animal Man #86) that by definition transcend the limits of our minds, time, and space. (Animal Man #84).

• How do the issue 84 and 86 correlate
• the two scans there are not talking about the same thing, like literally nothing there says they are the same thing
• whats the big idea?
• a world within a larger world does not give R>F by default without further proof of some sort
• you are trying to say the world where the meme found itself is 1A but someone humans live there?
• for the second scan, they meant a higher world quite blantantly actually, not some actual wiki defined 1A space. thats low 1C

"a world above human experiences"
"its difficult to chart with 3D maps realms that by definition exists outside space and time, these realms transcend the limits of our minds"
These statements can be true for any realm above 3D not necessarily 1A, so if there are further context please provide it


the rest are based on these so please if you can clear this up first.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry Ant, im not doing anything comic related.

Okay. That is unfortunate.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Pain_to12 makes sense above btw.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I already gave an input based on my knowledge in comics and the scans and explanation provided there are lots of gaps and things that just from a basic knowledge dont correlate, so yes I think using different cosmologies of different authors gives room to wank cosmology greatly, and this thread can wait.
So far i am neutral but i dont really agree with the tiering.

As someone who knows nothing about comics let me try and address some concerns
1. For the 1B

• where does Issue 14 and 19 correlate? as taking a single page from each comics without prior correlation can be misleading
• It is said "each universe are just a mirror of each other" this is 2B or 2A not 1B
• same as the first point i brought up ( where each part of the universe contains the whole inside of itself(Animal Man #14) and dream within a dream(Animal Man #19). ) I dont even see any correlation between this two scans at all, they are clearly with two different context

2. for the low 1A

this is not low 1A "a universe beyond what our flesh knows" thats all that is relevant in this scans and from what i can see those are humans(3D) then that space is 4D.

3. for the 1A+

• How do the issue 84 and 86 correlate
• the two scans there are not talking about the same thing, like literally nothing there says they are the same thing
• whats the big idea?
• a world within a larger world does not give R>F by default without further proof of some sort
• you are trying to say the world where the meme found itself is 1A but someone humans live there?
• for the second scan, they meant a higher world quite blantantly actually, not some actual wiki defined 1A space. thats low 1C

"a world above human experiences"
"its difficult to chart with 3D maps realms that by definition exists outside space and time, these realms transcend the limits of our minds"
These statements can be true for any realm above 3D not necessarily 1A, so if there are further context please provide it


the rest are based on these so please if you can clear this up first.

Pain addresses nicely well what I meant before with having more context. Some of the scans quite simply aren't clear enough, and the explanations given add a bunch of stuff that isn't shown by the evidence itself.

 

[Xearsay]

I already gave an input based on my knowledge in comics and the scans and explanation provided there are lots of gaps and things that just from a basic knowledge dont correlate, so yes I think using different cosmologies of different authors gives room to wank cosmology greatly, and this thread can wait.
So far i am neutral but i dont really agree with the tiering.

Ok but the vast majority of this entire cosmology was created by Morrison. The other Writers just simply added to and detailed it more.

As someone who knows nothing about comics let me try and address some concerns

1. For the 1B

• where does Issue 14 and 19 correlate? as taking a single page from each comics without prior correlation can be misleading

It correlates because both of the conversations in the scans were about the theory of the Universe and the Implicate Order(Animal Man #19). The scan I posted was more towards the end of their conversation which is the idea that everything is a dream in a dream. Which aligns with the Writers conversation that James Highwater had a dream about in Animal Man #14.

• It is said "each universe are just a mirror of each other" this is 2B or 2A not 1B

The only scan I posted for the 1-B justification mentioning mirrors says "the universe is a mirror reflecting itself” not “each universe are just a mirror of each other.”

• same as the first point i brought up ( where each part of the universe contains the whole inside of itself(Animal Man #14) and dream within a dream(Animal Man #19). ) I dont even see any correlation between this two scans at all, they are clearly with two different context

Like I said before, the topic of the conversations within both scans are talking about the same thing.

2. for the low 1A

this is not low 1A "a universe beyond what our flesh knows" thats all that is relevant in this scans and from what i can see those are humans(3D) then that space is 4D.

How is “the universe behind what our flesh knows” all that's relevant? In my larger post I also highlighted that it's the template of thought that forms The Universe which is a 1-B structure. Additionally it’s the moment before created existence, older than Antagon who is the darkness on the mirror of The Universe. Which goes back to how The Universe where each part contains the whole, is also mirror reflecting itself.

3. for the 1A+

• How do the issue 84 and 86 correlate
• the two scans there are not talking about the same thing, like literally nothing there says they are the same thing

They correlate because they're both talking about the Third Kingdom. As shown in the scan, the meme(Spider Queen) entered the mind, and the third kingdom is literally the mind(Animal Man #89). As spirit is the first kingdom and matter is the second kingdom. Also I'd like to point out that this entire fable is basically the Spider Queens origin, as she was a being who came from the dark outside of the three kingdoms and entered the imaginal realms like a virus seeking to take it over.

• whats the big idea?
• a world within a larger world does not give R>F by default without further proof of some sort

The big idea is essentially the whole universe, which in context of the White Queen and Black Queen is referring to the three kingdoms.

I never said it gives R>F. And I don't know why it would need to as a more fundamental and conceptual outerversal realm contained inside an infinite amount of larger, more fundamental and conceptual outerversal realms would still be a 1-A+ hierarchy.

• you are trying to say the world where the meme found itself is 1A but someone humans live there?

Where are you getting the idea that regular humans live in the third kingdom from? The scan mentions the Spider Queen invading the mind which is the third kingdom. And regular humans do not live there.

• for the second scan, they meant a higher world quite blantantly actually, not some actual wiki defined 1A space. thats low 1C

Can you elaborate on this point more? I don't really understand what you're trying to say because the second scan for the 1-A+ justification doesn't even mention a "higher world."

"a world above human experiences"
"its difficult to chart with 3D maps realms that by definition exists outside space and time, these realms transcend the limits of our minds"
These statements can be true for any realm above 3D not necessarily 1A, so if there are further context please provide it

The statements would be true for any realm above 3D if we ignored the rest of the cosmology. However if we analyze the statements relative to the cosmology presented, it reaches 1-A as it’s a more fundamental and foundational realm that is by definition beyond or outside the framework which defines the 1-B universe.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What tiers do you think seem warranted based on the following information?

I'm not sold on Animal Man's base form being Tier 5/4. The sole reason he even lived from Overman's attacks is because he channeled roach resilience. Animal Man when not channeling anything or his average showings has stuff like being floored by a depowered Jesse Quick. He can go up to tier 5/4 stuff when channeling things like a Sun Eater, Kryptonian or the one Black Hole starfish but his base form is not naturally that tough.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I'm not sold on Animal Man's base form being Tier 5/4. The sole reason he even lived from Overman's attacks is because he channeled roach resilience. Animal Man when not channeling anything or his average showings has stuff like being floored by a depowered Jesse Quick. He can go up to tier 5/4 stuff when channeling things like a Sun Eater, Kryptonian or the one Black Hole starfish but his base form is not naturally that tough.

I mean, Animal Man's entire thing is that he absorbs Animal powers to do superpower-y stuff. Later on in the fight, he also straight up Overpowered Overman, dragging him away. And he's being given the tier not so much for taking the attacks, but rather doing far better against Overman than Pre Crisis Bizarro and Ultraman

 

[Xearsay]

I mean, Animal Man's entire thing is that he absorbs Animal powers to do superpower-y stuff. Later on in the fight, he also straight up Overpowered Overman, dragging him away. And he's being given the tier not so much for taking the attacks, but rather doing far better against Overman than Pre Crisis Bizarro and Ultraman

Also wasn’t Animal Man stated to be not even aware of the full extent of his own powers a couple issues before fighting Overman?

 

[Overlord775]

i just want to bring up the fact that Animal Man should be composite DC animal lifeform since he pulls his powers from the conceptual grid of animal life

the fact that he can copy kryptonians makes this not arguable against

also the a weaker red user has shown the ability to copy their technology too in the form of replicating a green lantern's ring iirc

 

[PrinceofPein]

Ok but the vast majority of this entire cosmology was created by Morrison. The other Writers just simply added to and detailed it more.


It correlates because both of the conversations in the scans were about the theory of the Universe and the Implicate Order(Animal Man #19). The scan I posted was more towards the end of their conversation which is the idea that everything is a dream in a dream. Which aligns with the Writers conversation that James Highwater had a dream about in Animal Man #14.

what i am asking is why you are joining it together that is clearly two different authors. separately those two scans dont mean much but the moment you try and join it together then it can be wanked

The only scan I posted for the 1-B justification mentioning mirrors says "the universe is a mirror reflecting itself” not “each universe are just a mirror of each other.”

so practically each universe is just a mirror reflecting itself. this is still 2B to 2A, then you bring in another issue that has a different definition to grant it 1B.
the scan from the same issues talks about a cosmology of universes interwoven together and everything is a mirror reflecting itself. then you bring another issue that mentions something about everything been a dream within a dream in a totally different context, like totally different they were not even talking about the universe they were just doubting if what they saw was real or not and the other guy said "remember what Poe said........ all that we see is nothing but a dream within a dream"
first a scan is talking about how everything in the universe is connected and just a reflection of itself and also how you cant really say who is dreaming which universe and it mentioned nothing like literally nothing about each universe superior to each other rather it says they are interconnected.
the other scan just brought a different context into play and you decided to merge it together.

Like I said before, the topic of the conversations within both scans are talking about the same thing.


How is “the universe behind what our flesh knows” all that's relevant? In my larger post I also highlighted that it's the template of thought that forms The Universe which is a 1-B structure. Additionally it’s the moment before created existence, older than Antagon who is the darkness on the mirror of The Universe. Which goes back to how The Universe where each part contains the whole, is also mirror reflecting itself.

first you have not really proven the universe is a 1B structure.

your scan never said anything like this tho, it said "A universe hidden behind the one our flesh knows.......... where thought becomes the template and template merges with the energy of thought"
the universe any flesh know is literally 3D not infinite D or countless D lets start with that.
and also who was the one giving that dialogue or monologue?

They correlate because they're both talking about the Third Kingdom. As shown in the scan, the meme(Spider Queen) entered the mind, and the third kingdom is literally the mind(Animal Man #89). As spirit is the first kingdom and matter is the second kingdom. Also I'd like to point out that this entire fable is basically the Spider Queens origin, as she was a being who came from the dark outside of the three kingdoms and entered the imaginal realms like a virus seeking to take it over.

you posted a scan that mentioned nothing about the third kingdom and said "the third kingdom is literally the mind" but all that was in the entire scan is this ( a pregnant woman on a table and two weird dudes trying to look at her foetus and this was the whole convo "let us have a look at what you carry within you...... beautiful when i wear this raiment of perfected flesh....the worlds of mind, body and spirit will all be mine")

nothing here mentions the third world or how the third world is the mind, so how am i supposed to believe this? you post a scan but the explanation you give always differ or there is always a huge gap of info in your scans.
well this is not too important anyway

The big idea is essentially the whole universe, which in context of the White Queen and Black Queen is referring to the three kingdoms.

great,
1. you said both scans are talking about the same thing
2. and you also said the first kingdom is the spirit and the second matter and the third is the mind
3. and you went on to say that the third kingdom is 1A+ because
BUT
1. but here we have them say in the second panel that the second kingdom is the mind, so please can you provide your scan that says the third kingdom is the mind like you said
2. both scans are not talking about the same thing one didnt even mention anything about the kingdoms or the big idea, so how am i to believe they are talking about the same thing

I never said it gives R>F. And I don't know why it would need to as a more fundamental and conceptual outerversal realm contained inside an infinite amount of larger, more fundamental and conceptual outerversal realms would still be a 1-A+ hierarchy.

you have not proven it is an outerversal realm. and neither is it certain that it is an infinite number of worlds inside a larger one it was "maybe" and also yes you need to prove that the R>F of each world or it simply a case of a larger space containing a smaller one. nothing in the scans says each realm is conceptually or fundamentally superior to another. please refrain from saying what you think is right and say what the author said or how the author explained it in the scan you send to back up your explanation, Your explanation may be right, maybe you have seen another scan that back up your claim but send that scan also as for this kind of upgrade no one will take your words for it

Where are you getting the idea that regular humans live in the third kingdom from? The scan mentions the Spider Queen invading the mind which is the third kingdom. And regular humans do not live there.

your scans says the spider queen invaded the second kingdom which is the mind not the third kingdom, try reading the scan again your scan says you are wrong

Can you elaborate on this point more? I don't really understand what you're trying to say because the second scan for the 1-A+ justification doesn't even mention a "higher world."

it did tho it said iirc " the shamans travel to the higher realms and lower realms.............. and the 3D maps will have cant allow us to navigate such realms" and you expect us to believe the higher realm in this context is the third(second) kingdom?

The statements would be true for any realm above 3D if we ignored the rest of the cosmology. However if we analyze the statements relative to the cosmology presented, it reaches 1-A as it’s a more fundamental and foundational realm that is by definition beyond or outside the framework which defines the 1-B universe.

Except what you have provided from where i stopped, if they were from the same and correlate, would grant 1B or High 1B not even 1A+. But so far none of your scan correlates with each other and i dont see how the big idea is anything more than low 1C

 

[Qawsedf234]

And he's being given the tier not so much for taking the attacks, but rather doing far better against Overman than Pre Crisis Bizarro and Ultraman

Which is fine, but my point was that the quoted line was about base Animal Man. Animal Man doesn't have a base power level, it depends completely on what he absorbs and he varies rather massively depending on that. Giving him a base rating of Tier 2 doesn't work with basically everything else in Post-Crisis as well.

 

[Xearsay]

what i am asking is why you are joining it together that is clearly two different authors. separately those two scans dont mean much but the moment you try and join it together then it can be wanked

I understand what you’re saying but all the scans I used that you’re saying don’t correlate together were from the same author. Issue #14 and #19 for example are both written by Grant Morrison.

so practically each universe is just a mirror reflecting itself.

That’s not what the text says. It says “the universe is a mirror reflecting itself." Not, the relationship between each universe in the hierarchy is like a mirror reflecting itself. These are two completely different sentences. Additionally your interpretation on the relationship between each universe being only a mirror reflecting itself wouldn’t make sense as The Writer directly talks about how each part contains the whole in the exact same scan.

the scan from the same issues talks about a cosmology of universes interwoven together and everything is a mirror reflecting itself. then you bring another issue that mentions something about everything been a dream within a dream in a totally different context, like totally different they were not even talking about the universe they were just doubting if what they saw was real or not and the other guy said "remember what Poe said........ all that we see is nothing but a dream within a dream"

You claim they weren’t talking about the universe in that scan but in the same scan Buddy literally states “And the other stuff?…Reality, God… Did we really see God? How much of it was just a hallucination?”

And even if you for some reason still don’t believe this, The Writer openly states in issue #14 “Sometimes you wonder, in an interconnected Universe, who’s dreaming who?”

your scan never said anything like this tho, it said "A universe hidden behind the one our flesh knows.......... where thought becomes the template and template merges with the energy of thought"
the universe any flesh know is literally 3D not infinite D or countless D lets start with that.
and also who was the one giving that dialogue or monologue?

Dialogue for which scan? Also while yes that specific scan never mentioned this information, the others I posted did. There’s only one of them I didn’t post and it’s this one(Animal Man #49). So I’d assume that you’ve read all of them and analyzed the structure from a holistic stand point that takes into account all the info.

you posted a scan that mentioned nothing about the third kingdom and said "the third kingdom is literally the mind" but all that was in the entire scan is this ( a pregnant woman on a table and two weird dudes trying to look at her foetus and this was the whole convo "let us have a look at what you carry within you...... beautiful when i wear this raiment of perfected flesh....the worlds of mind, body and spirit will all be mine")

You have to keep in mind that this is coming from the Spider Queen who wants to take the World Soul for herself so she can rule the three kingdoms(Animal Man #86). And that fetus is the World Soul. So when she says “when I wear this raiment of perfected flesh… the worlds of mind, body, and spirit will all be mine” she’s talking about the three kingdoms. With spirit and Body being the first two kingdoms and the mind being the third kingdom.

great,
1. you said both scans are talking about the same thing
2. and you also said the first kingdom is the spirit and the second matter and the third is the mind
3. and you went on to say that the third kingdom is 1A+ because
BUT
1. but here we have them say in the second panel that the second kingdom is the mind, so please can you provide your scan that says the third kingdom is the mind like you said

I explained it in the paragraph right above this one. Also they don't claim the second kingdom is the mind in that scan. The Spider Queen states that someone from the second kingdom(Buddy's world) opened the doorway to where the meme was located. And on that day, the meme(a being who is an idea) found it's way into to the mind. Now are you really trying to tell me that Buddy's world is some conceptual place despite regular humans living their? That interpretation doesn't make any sense and contradicts a massive amount of information that was presented in the story.

nothing in the scans says each realm is conceptually or fundamentally superior to another. please refrain from saying what you think is right and say what the author said or how the author explained it in the scan you send to back up your explanation, Your explanation may be right, maybe you have seen another scan that back up your claim but send that scan also as for this kind of upgrade no one will take your words for it

Well I never said it was from that scan but I am at fault for not providing the scan from which it was from to you. Here's the scan(Animal man #85).

it did tho it said iirc " the shamans travel to the higher realms and lower realms.............. and the 3D maps will have cant allow us to navigate such realms" and you expect us to believe the higher realm in this context is the third(second) kingdom?

What I'm saying is the third kingdom is imagination as it's openly described as "imagination"(Animal Man #86) multiple times(Animal Man #87) and that the imaginal realms are just worlds of the imagination.

Except what you have provided from where i stopped, if they were from the same and correlate, would grant 1B or High 1B not even 1A+. But so far none of your scan correlates with each other and i dont see how the big idea is anything more than low 1C

I provided that they’re a more fundamental and foundational realms that by definition are beyond the frame work in which 1-B are defined within the cosmology. Which is basically what outerversal is.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sold on Animal Man's base form being Tier 5/4. The sole reason he even lived from Overman's attacks is because he channeled roach resilience. Animal Man when not channeling anything or his average showings has stuff like being floored by a depowered Jesse Quick. He can go up to tier 5/4 stuff when channeling things like a Sun Eater, Kryptonian or the one Black Hole starfish but his base form is not naturally that tough.

Which is fine, but my point was that the quoted line was about base Animal Man. Animal Man doesn't have a base power level, it depends completely on what he absorbs and he varies rather massively depending on that. Giving him a base rating of Tier 2 doesn't work with basically everything else in Post-Crisis as well.

I agree with this. Animal Man on his base level without empowering himself via power-copying is only supposed to be on the level of an athletic regular DC Comics human. If he empowers himself, whether consciously or unconsciously, that is an entirely different issue.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Ok but all the scans I used that you’re saying don’t correlate together were from the same author. Like issue #14 and #19 for example are both written by Grant Morrison.


That’s not what the text says. It says “the universe is a mirror reflecting itself." Not, the relationship between each universe in the hierarchy is like a mirror reflecting itself. These are two completely different sentences. Additionally your interpretation of each universe being a mirror reflecting itself wouldn’t make sense as The Writer directly talks about how each part contains the whole in the exact same scan.


You claim they weren’t talking about the universe in that scan but in the same scan Buddy literally states “And the other stuff?…Reality, God… Did we really see God? How much of it was just a hallucination?”

And even if you for some reason still don’t believe this, The Writer openly states in issue #14 “Sometimes you wonder, in an interconnected Universe, who’s dreaming who?”


Ok but I posted multiple scans in the larger post. There’s only one of them I didn’t post and it’s this one(Animal Man #49). So I’d assume that you’ve read all of them and analyzed the structure from a holistic stand point that takes into account all the info.


You have to keep in mind that this is coming from the Spider Queen who wants to take the World Soul for herself so she can rule the three kingdoms(Animal Man #86). And that fetus is the World Soul. So when she says “when I wear this raiment of perfected flesh… the worlds of mind, body, and spirit will all be mine” she’s talking about the three kingdoms. With spirit and Body being the first two kingdoms and the mind being the third kingdom.


I explained it in the paragraph right above this one. Also they don't claim the second kingdom is the mind in that scan. The Spider Queen states that someone from the second kingdom(Buddy's world) opened the doorway to where the meme was located. And on that day, the meme(a being who is an idea) found it's way into to the mind. Are you actually trying to tell me that Buddy's world is some conceptual place despite regular humans living their? That interpretation doesn't make any sense and contradicts a massive amount of information that was presented in the story.


Well I never said it was from that scan but I am at fault for not providing the scan from which it was from to you. Here's the scan(Animal man #85).


What I'm saying is the third kingdom is imagination as it's openly described as "imagination"(Animal Man #86) multiple times(Animal Man #87) and that the imaginal realms are just worlds of the imagination.


I provided that it's a more fundamental and foundational hierarchy that by definition is beyond the frame work in which 1-B is defined within the cosmology. Which is basically what outerversal is.

would reply later might take a a day or two, please bear with me

 

[Xearsay]

would reply later might take a a day or two, please bear with me

No worries. Take your time.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. No problem.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

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[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I cannot force others to be interested in this thread, but the accepted new abilities should probably be fine to apply.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I think we should pay attention to this. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...listic_Stance_on_the_Overall_Canon#cite_ref-4
It tells us some things about the Red cosmology

 

[PsychoWarper]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I cannot force others to be interested in this thread, but the accepted new abilities should probably be fine to apply.

 

[Tarang123]

The third kingdom is 1-A+ because it is a hierarchy of potentially an infinite amount of larger worlds within larger worlds(Animal Man #86) that by definition transcend the limits of our minds, time, and space. (Animal Man #84).

I personally don't see anything here that grants a 1A+ rating, and I'm definitely pretty suspect on the scans shown for earlier levels. Other than that, I'll stay neutral for this thread

 

[Transcending]

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[Antvasima]

The accepted new abilities should probably be fine to apply.

Is somebody here willing to handle this?

Evaluations of appropriate tier placements would also be good.

 

[Xearsay]

I personally don't see anything here that grants a 1A+ rating, and I'm definitely pretty suspect on the scans shown for earlier levels. Other than that, I'll stay neutral for this thread

I forgot to include that they’re also more fundamental and foundational conceptual realities. Which combined with the information we already know about them existing by definition beyond the framework(space and time) that defines the 1-B hierarchy, would push them to outerversal. Well at least that’s what I was thinking.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk, Ultima, and KingPin have now updated our Tiering System page from tier Low 1-A and upwards, so they become easier to understand

 

[Transcending]

DontTalk, Ultima, and KingPin have now updated our Tiering System page from tier Low 1-A and upwards, so they become easier to understand

You still need to transcend spatio-temporal dimensionality for 1-A right?

 

[Antvasima]

Not exactly, as far as I understand, but I am still waiting for DontTalk, or somebody else who is knowledgeable about the subject, to respond to a question I made about some restructuring I had to do in the Tiering System page.

 

[Tarang123]

I forgot to include that they’re also more fundamental and foundational conceptual realities. Which combined with the information we already know about them existing by definition beyond the framework(space and time) that defines the 1-B hierarchy, would push them to outerversal. Well at least that’s what I was thinking.

This scan seems to put the archetypes stuff at suspect making it seem as just an interpretation, so idk if that can really be used as justification

 

[Tarang123]

You still need to transcend spatio-temporal dimensionality for 1-A right?

Pretty sure that isn’t necessary. But I think transcending spatio-temporal dimensionality might still be 1A

 

[Xearsay]

This scan seems to put the archetypes stuff at suspect making it seem as just an interpretation, so idk if that can really be used as justification

That’s not actually what it’s saying. Animal Man would state, “I have this feeling… like I’ve been swallowed up by something bigger than myself.” In reply to this, Dr. Varma would present two interpretations of what he believes could accurately describe what Buddy’s feeling. The first interpretation comes from Keel, who would say Buddy has been swallowed by the imaginal worlds. The second interpretation comes from an Ant mystic who would say Buddy has been swallowed by the World Soul. So when Dr. Varma states, “I don’t know if either of these interpretations is correct” he’s talking about not knowing whether the interpretations are correct in terms of accurately describing what Animal Man’s feeling. He’s not talking about whether the interpretation of the imaginal worlds as being more fundamental and foundational conceptual realities is correct.

 

[Transcending]

Bump