DC Comics - Animal Man Cosmology Determination

[Transcending]

Well, I think that DontTalk seems to understand its structure better

Is he available?

 

[Deagonx]

Well I felt like there were enough evidences.

The evidence doesn't clearly speak to transcendence in plain language, and the logic used to reach those conclusions has been exposed as shaky at best.

But I do not agree the statistics given were ridiculously extreme.

They were. 1-A Animal Man is absurd. In the first thread he argued Tier 0 for Comic Book Limbo.

 

[Pikaman]

He needs to read ALL of the arguments in this thread from the opposition as well, not just blindly accept what Xearsay feeds him and give a stamp of approval on as ridiculously extreme statistics as possible.

If Xearsay’s points make sense to Ultima, but not Deagonx, why are we assuming it’s Deagonx who must be right just because he’s be more vocal about his opinion? I appreciate the importance of reading counter-points, but counter-arguments all ultimately link back to a fundamental disagreement with the OP. If Ultima does not have such issues, then maybe what Xearsay says isn’t all that lacking in credibility as it is being hyped up to be...?

I agree it would be far better to see if we can managed getting Ultima on this thread however, I’m not against him reading counter-points and changing his mind in any way, of course, I just find it unlikely

 

[Deagonx]

Someone else agreeing or disagreeing will not change what the scans actually say.

 

[Antvasima]

Man it's been said to be coming soon for months and it's still not here. I legitimately wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't come this year.

Our project members have been active very sporadically, and we are also waiting for Ultima to further discuss the issue in private with us.

 

[Antvasima]

Is he available?

Well, If Xearsay, Malomtek, Pain_to12, and Deagonx respectively write one thorough explanation post each for their important arguments, I suppose that I could ask him to come here and evaluate them. There are no guarantees that he will be interested though, as he is also very busy.

 

[Transcending]

Well, If Xearsay, Malomtek, Pain_to12, and Deagonx respectively write one thorough explanation post each for their important arguments, I suppose that I could ask him to come here and evaluate them. There are no guarantees that he will be interested though, as he is also very busy.

I think them summarising their points is a good move in general, even if DT is offline.

 

[Pikaman]

Someone else agreeing or disagreeing will not change what the scans actually say.

Yes, but I’d be sure of the fact Ultima would be a better person to consult in this than you, or likely anyone else on this wiki. You can argue with them if they do show up on this thread (which honestly will probably not happen), but if Ultima reads through all the comments here and agrees with Xearsay, or Malomtek, or fundamentally disagrees with all currently proposed, then I’d describe the act of debating him fruitless lol

 

[Antvasima]

If Xearsay’s points make sense to Ultima, but not Deagonx, why are we assuming it’s Deagonx who must be right just because he’s be more vocal about his opinion? I appreciate the importance of reading counter-points, but counter-arguments all ultimately link back to a fundamental disagreement with the OP. If Ultima does not have such issues, then maybe what Xearsay says isn’t all that lacking in credibility as it is being hyped up to be...?

I agree it would be far better to see if we can managed getting Ultima on this thread however, I’m not against him reading counter-points and changing his mind in any way, of course, I just find it unlikely

Well, I suppose that we could use the method that I mentioned in my last post above, after which I call for both DontTalk and Ultima.

 

[Antvasima]

I think them summarising their points is a good move in general, even if DT is offline.

Well, simplistic summaries are probably not the best move since it is DontTalk and Ultima we are talking about. Properly thorough logical reasoning, and evidence with any out of context misdirection cut away, seems like a much better choice.

However, I would still much prefer if we postpone this thread until a few months after our DC Comics cosmology revision has been released, as it causes everything to become messy and disordered otherwise.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, but I’d be sure of the fact Ultima would be a better person to consult in this than you, or likely anyone else on this wiki. You can argue with them if they do show up on this thread (which honestly will probably not happen), but if Ultima reads through all the comments here and agrees with Xearsay, or Malomtek, or fundamentally disagrees with all currently proposed, then I’d describe the act of debating him fruitless lol

Argument from authority.

Well, I suppose that we could use the method that I mentioned in my last post above, after which I call for both DontTalk and Ultima.

We could, but I am not sure it would be the most productive use of everyone's time. We're 6 pages deep and the discussions more or less reached a consensus just needing to add references to the changes made. Regardless of disagreements about what the cosmology would be tiered as, as Pain_to12 pointed out, Buddy clearly doesn't scale to the entire cosmology so it's moot.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I could ask DontTalk if he would be interested at least.

 

[Transcending]

Properly thorough logical reasoning, and evidence with any out of context misdirection cut away, seems like a much better choice.

Ye

 

[Transcending]

Well, I could ask DontTalk if he would be interested at least.

That's a good idea.

 

[Transcending]

Buddy clearly doesn't scale to the entire cosmology so it's moot.

Can't it still upgrade the Cosmology tho?

 

[Antvasima]

That's a good idea.

I have sent him a private message about the issue.

 

[Deagonx]

Can't it still upgrade the Cosmology tho?

My understanding is that cosmology's do not receive profiles, correct?

 

[Transcending]

My understanding is that cosmology's do not receive profiles, correct?

Yea but I am pretty sure Cosmologies are still tiered.

 

[Antvasima]

I think they are referring to Monitor-Mind the Overvoid and God (DC Comics).

 

[Antvasima]

However, I would still much prefer if we postpone this thread until a few months after our DC Comics cosmology revision has been released, as it causes everything to become messy and disordered otherwise.

Anyway...

 

[Pikaman]

Argument from authority.

No, it’s just I trust Ultima far more than you in these matters, and are more inclined to listen to him as a result. The exact same way Ant currently trusts you far more than Xearsay. The concept of valuing the contributions of knowledgeable members more than lesser knowledgeable members is not argument from authority, and has been around on this wiki as a very basic principle of it for basically as long as it has existed

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, I could ask DontTalk if he would be interested at least.

Why not Ultima too?

 

[Deagonx]

No, it’s just I trust Ultima far more than you in these matters, and are more inclined to listen to him as a result.

You can listen to whoever you want, but it does not change what the evidence actually says. No one person's opinion overrides the lack of evidence in the CRT.

 

[Antvasima]

Why not Ultima too?

He is currently busy with other more important tasks, and we usually have to wait for several weeks or even months for him to respond to them.

In addition, some of our regular members seem to have an ongoing tendency to use him as a guaranteed bullseye weapon to get as extreme tiers as possible for different verses by contacting him via Discord to feed him onesided information, and I have an impression that he may be far too lenient in this regard, rather than consistently being increasingly "extreme claims require extraordinary evidence"-minded regarding our highest tiers.

That said, I may very well be wrong, and can call for Ultima later if you really want me to.

 

[Pikaman]

You can listen to whoever you want, but it does not change what the evidence actually says. No one person's opinion overrides the lack of evidence in the CRT.

If ULTIMA finds the CRT good and you think there’s no evidence, maybe, just maybe, you are incorrect in your beliefs about the evidence?

 

[Deagonx]

If ULTIMA finds the CRT good and you think there’s no evidence, maybe, just maybe, you are incorrect in your beliefs about the evidence?

If that was the case, you wouldn't need to rely on someone else to lend credibility to it. You'd be able to prove it with evidence.

The fact that all that's left to push this tier is a hail Mary attempt to convince a third party who hasn't participated in the thread is pretty good proof by itself that the tiering suggestions given lack proof.

 

[Antvasima]

If ULTIMA finds the CRT good and you think there’s no evidence, maybe, just maybe, you are incorrect in your beliefs about the evidence?

Again, Ultima is highly intelligent, but he is also very young, and I have an impression that he seems far too lenient with assigning extreme tiers sometimes. In addition, he has also been very busy IRL recently.

 

[Armorchompy]

That said, I may very well be wrong, and can call for Ultima later if you really want me to.

Given that one way or the other he has still voiced his agreement I think that is incredibly important, yes, we can't discount an opinion we'd normally highly value just because of personal opinions

 

[Pikaman]

He is currently busy with other more important tasks, and we usually have to wait for several weeks or even months for him to respond to them.

Still, worth a shot right? Also don’t you also wish to postpone this thread by a few months? Seems a good opportunity to kill 2 birds with one stone

In addition, some of our regular members seem to have an ongoing tendency to use him as a weapon to get as extreme tiers as possible for different verses by contacting him via Discord to feed him onesided information, and I have an impression that he may be far too lenient in this regard, rather than consistently being increasingly "extreme claims require extraordinary evidence"-minded regarding our highest tiers

If Ultima had a major problem with leniency they would not be THE person to contact about this kinda stuff, if you’re concerned about biased info just invite them to read through the thread, that way you can’t argue he’s been manipulated by one sided circumstances

 

[Deagonx]

Given that one way or the other he has still voiced his agreement

Has he? I've seen no actual proof that he voiced his agreement.

If Ultima had a major problem with leniency they would not be THE person to contact about this kinda stuff

Actually, yes he would. This thread is a great example. Ultima has literally nothing to do with this CRT, and now the entire focus of this thread has revolved around a single unproven comment claiming that Ultima agrees as if that somehow negates the pages of debunking that went on prior.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we would need proper explanation posts written by the main proponents of each side for both Ultima and DontTalk to evaluate first.

However, again, this is the entirely wrong time for this particular thread. It should be closed and postponed until after we finish our upcoming DC Comics cosmology revision.

 

[Pikaman]

Actually, yes he would. This thread is a great example. Ultima has literally nothing to do with this CRT, and now the entire focus of this thread has revolved around a single unproven comment claiming that Ultima agrees as if that somehow negates the pages of debunking that went on prior.

BREAKING NEWS: Extremely trusted member’s input does indeed shift the landscape of a CRT

also you’re heavily implying people are downright lying about Ultima’s agreement with the points he’s been claimed to agree with, which is just a cheap shot to try and delegitimise the people who stand against you

 

[Deagonx]

BREAKING NEWS: Extremely trusted member’s input does indeed shift the landscape of a CRT

Thats called argument from authority. Ultima doesn't have special eyes. You can read the evidence yourself and present an argument.

also you’re heavily implying people are downright lying about Ultima’s agreement with the points he’s been claimed to agree with, which is just a cheap shot to try and delegitimise the people who stand against you

Asking for evidence is a cheap shot? That explains a lot.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we do need a screenshot for what Ultima has said exactly, and he would need to read the entire discussion before he could make a valid judgement.

However, all of this bickering is both off-topic and spends lots of valuable time that I do not have available. It also does not yet incorporate the split cosmology that we are going to apply within the near future, so it should be closed and reopened later.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't think it should be closed, discussion is still ongoing.

Also, the cosmology split is not guaranteed to be accepted, it going through should not be treated as a fact until it does if it does, so I really wouldn't use it as a primary reason to close a thread.

 

[Pikaman]

Asking for evidence is a cheap shot? That explains a lot.

Accusing perfectly upstanding members of doing something like blatantly lying in a CRT without evidence of your own is indeed cheap. Obviously it would be nice to see evidence, but you’re making a major accusation that could very easily if unchecked discredit those who stand against you

Thats called argument from authority. Ultima doesn't have special eyes. You can read the evidence yourself and present an argument.

Trusting Ultima over you on a cosmology matter is not argument from authority, it’s common sense...

 

[Deagonx]

Accusing perfectly upstanding members of doing something like blatantly lying in a CRT without evidence of your own is indeed cheap

I never accused anyone of lying. I pointed out the simple fact that we don't have any evidence for what Ultima actually said or even what scans he was shown.

Trusting Ultima over you on a cosmology matter is not argument from authority, it’s common sense...

Common sense is that how much you "trust" a user shouldn't dictate content revision. Everyone has to prove their claims with evidence. So unless some new scans are produced which actually prove the claims made, it doesn't matter who you trust more.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think it should be closed, discussion is still ongoing.

Also, the cosmology split is not guaranteed to be accepted, it going through should not be treated as a fact until it does if it does, so I really wouldn't use it as a primary reason to close a thread.

Not closed, just postponed. It is messy and disorganised to try to apply two contradictory cosmology revisions to the same verse right after each other.

Also, given the enormous amounts of structured referenced evidence that we have assembled, the only reason why it could be rejected seems to be due to extreme bias for getting as unreasonably high tiers as possible.

Accusing perfectly upstanding members of doing something like blatantly lying in a CRT without evidence of your own is indeed cheap. Obviously it would be nice to see evidence, but you’re making a major accusation that could very easily if unchecked discredit those who stand against you

He didn't say that anybody here is lying. He just said that we need evidence and specifics not a "he offhandedly gave me a thumbs up" without further elaboration regarding the context involved.

Trusting Ultima over you on a cosmology matter is not argument from authority, it’s common sense...

Deagonx seems considerably more knowledgeable about the DC Comics verse itself than Ultima is though, and has made extensive logical arguments here. You are dismissing him wholesale simply because Ultima had a big hand in redesigning our tiering system, regardless if he just stated a 5 second "sounds good" sentence about this thread.

(I am not saying that this is the case, but we do not know the context yet.)

 

[Pikaman]

Common sense is that how much you "trust" a user shouldn't dictate content revision. Everyone has to prove their claims with evidence.

Oh wait sorry I think there’s been a misunderstanding. I agree fully with you on this, obviously Ultima should back up their claims with evidence and points like any other member, I’m just saying that if they were to come onto this thread and present their arguments and beliefs (properly, which is a fair assumption) at that point, if neither of you two convince the other (akin to a “agree to disagree” situation”), Ultima would be more trustworthy

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, given the enormous amounts of structured referenced evidence that we have assembled, the only reason why it could be rejected seems to be due to extreme bias for getting as unreasonably high tiers as possible.

Sorry, but that is extremely wrong, battleboarding is inherently subjective and people can always disagree. I haven't seen the evidence itself so I can't make any claims on whether I would agree or not but to pre-emptively accuse anyone else who does disagree of bias is unacceptable.