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Android 17 DBS, Low 2-C upgrade.

AdNiBN002 said:
Low 2-C Golden Frieza is also pretty consistent all things considered. He was very relevant in the fight against GoD Toppo and he could take the misdirected blast from Jiren equally well as 17.

I don't think the case for Low 2-C Golden Frieza is as conclusive as Low 2-C Android 17 (By which I mean, a Low 2-C Android 17 does not guarantee a Low 2-C Frieza) but the two generally perform on the same wavelength quite often.
Click to expand...
Golden Frieza is stronger than A17 anyways.

Also, mind you, the Golden Frieza from the Broly movie is also stronger than both SSB Goku and Vegeta, due to being able to withstand Broly for like, hours.
 
Wait, hold the phone.

This was a 17 upgrade thread, where I could see potential for that but where did the proposals for SSB Goku being Low 2-C before ToP starting or Golden Frieza prior to the Broly movie upgrade proposals started?
 
The Low 2-C Goku was more that "if" 17 wasn't holding back then he could potentially qualify for Low 2-C.
But both 17 and Goku were not giving 100% in that engagement so there's nothing to it.
It was more just confirming that 17 and Goku were indeed not giving 100%

We can leave golden Frieza for another time just to focus on 17, as there are noticeable differences in their feats.

But if Low 2-C Android 17 does go through, then Golden Frieza will likely get the same treatment eventually.
 
AdNiBN002 said:
That's base Goku fighting in tandem with Frieza compared to 17 by his lonesome, as we know that teamwork in Dragonball can dramatically increase your strength,
that's not really applicable.
Click to expand...
That's irrelvant as they were damaging jiren individually and taking his attacks. Freeza even grabbed jiren by himself and pulled him down and Jiren couldn't resist. He needed to actually save 17.
Also you think two dudes are individually finiters but working in tandem they get a beyond infinite amp, lol?
 
If I've counted correctly then that's
6 (op included) users, and 3(4?) Mods in favour of Low 2-C Android 17.
With 2 mods not being against the idea.
 
I don't see what has changed here in the last 4 years but this topic was heavily debated. Can somebody find the past threads, they covered all the arguments?

Also, can I get a TLDR for what has changed?
 
AKM sama said:
I don't see what has changed here in the last 4 years but this topic was heavily debated. Can somebody find the past threads, they covered all the arguments?

Also, can I get a TLDR for what has changed?
Click to expand...
I don't know if these are all of them, but these are the ones I found:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/frieza-and-android-17-upgrade-staff-only.14398/

As for the TL;DR

Most of the old arguments against Low 2-C Android 17 is that he has a number of anti-feats that make his scaling inconsistent and a good portion of his feats become inapplicable as a result.

However, we actually have statements from both Frieza and Goku (alongside propensity evidence from Android 17 himself) that gives a lot of context behind his anti-feats, which in return makes 17's Low 2-C feats a lot more consistent with both narrative and scaling.

As such, we can't really say that his Low 2-C feats are plot-convenience and/or outliers.
As his scaling does not contradict the story and the sheer quantity of feats go against the idea of it being an outlier.
 
If there are new arguments that weren't brought up before, then they should definitely discussed rather than being immediately closed up with a discussion rule to prevent anyone else from arguing that
 
I don't see any new arguments. Please read the previous threads as well. The topic was discussed many times and finally also in a staff only thread. There has been no new information to override the previous decision.
 
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AKM sama said:
I don't see any new arguments. Please read the previous threads as well. The topic was discussed many times and finally also in a staff only thread. There has been no new information to override the previous decision.
Click to expand...

The staff only thread talked for majority of the time about the ep 131 fight against the heavily fatigued Jiren. (Which is not the main reasoning behind the Low 2-C rating here) and occasionally touched up 17's scaling being inconsistent and his feats being outliers. Which has been addressed.

if it is desired, we can address any arguments against Low 2-C Android 17, if they are reposted here.
 
AKM sama said:
I don't see any new arguments. Please read the previous threads as well. The topic was discussed many times and finally also in a staff only thread. There has been no new information to override the previous decision.
Click to expand...
The new arguments take his incredible growth rate into account. He reached 3a by fighting poachers. It's not an outlier for him to reach low 2c by constantly fighting Universal characters and Jiren.
 
Considering how fast even the Saiyans grew in the tournament, and even Frieza (as he survived beatings from God Toppo and could fight Jiren afterwards despite being beaten down), it doesn't seem far fetched that Android 17 could also grow as fast, especially since his potential was maginfied tremendously by Gero's mechanical upgrades (After all, he grew from the level of normal humans to above Android Saga Super Saiyans and Frieza with no training, and given how much he grew before the tournament, his potential might even surpasses that of Frieza)
 
I think the more definitive point in the favour of Low 2-C Android 17 is that we know that 17 canonically holds back to a fault. As such, we never actually saw his upper limits until the very end of the tournament of power against GoD Toppo and Jiren.

The only fights we've seen him get pushed before this was;

The fight against the supressed SSB Goku, where we know he (17) held back, and the fight against base Toppo, where we know he held back.
 
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AdNiBN002 said:
I think the more definitive point in the favour of Low 2-C Android 17 is that we know that 17 canonically holds back to a fault. As such, we never actually saw his upper limits until the very end of the tournament of power against GoD Toppo and Jiren.
Click to expand...
SSB Goku and Golden Frieza were stated to be the strongest members in U7's team before the ToP has started. That would mean Android 17 was intially weaker than SSB Goku and Golden Frieza, but later in the tournament grew to this level of power, much like how Goku and Frieza grew as well in that time
 
And Frieza reach 3-A in some months through training with unknown partners, which by all mean, all of them are fodders, or he could just mediating up to 3-A like Piccolo, hell even Gohan reach 3-A despite he claimed to training to regain his lost power, he somehow jump straight to 3-A. Broly also reach 3-A by fighting some....well, oversized spiders, next movie human also created two 3-A androids. At this point multiple characters can consistently fighting other 3-A characters due to plot, so i saw no reason to deny Low 2-C for 17
 
AdNiBN002 said:
The staff only thread talked for majority of the time about the ep 131 fight
Click to expand...
Not really. There were prior threads talking about prior episodes too and consistency of those episodes was also discussed. 17 becoming Low 2-C makes a very weakened Goku incapable of going SSJ Low 2-C as well which does not make sense. All of this was also discussed.

SirAlex09 said:
The new arguments take his incredible growth rate into account. He reached 3a by fighting poachers. It's not an outlier for him to reach low 2c by constantly fighting Universal characters and Jiren.
Click to expand...
That's not a valid argument. He reached 3-A after years. Nowhere in the ToP was it mentioned that 17 was constantly growing stronger as he fights. He is not Goku.

AdNiBN002 said:
I think the more definitive point in the favour of Low 2-C Android 17 is that we know that 17 canonically holds back to a fault. As such, we never actually saw his upper limits until the very end of the tournament of power against GoD Toppo and Jiren.
Click to expand...
He was mostly unable to do anything against both, except for his shields. A short instance of throwing hands with someone stronger doesn't validate scaling.
 
AKM sama said:
That's not a valid argument. He reached 3-A after years. Nowhere in the ToP was it mentioned that 17 was constantly growing stronger as he fights. He is not Goku.
Click to expand...
We don't need statements, it's clearly visible through his feats during the later arcs of the tournament compared to earlier
 
AKM sama said:
Not really. There were prior threads talking about prior episodes too and consistency of those episodes was also discussed. 17 becoming Low 2-C makes a very weakened Goku incapable of going SSJ Low 2-C as well which does not make sense. All of this was also discussed.
Click to expand...
Him getting stronger actually does make sense, we know that saiyans get stronger whilst fighting, and we know goku could've gotten stronger from the post ui zenkai. So it is logically possible. The only arguments i could really see against this would be arguing from incredulity.
 
AKM sama said:
That's not a valid argument. He reached 3-A after years. Nowhere in the ToP was it mentioned that 17 was constantly growing stronger as he fights. He is not Goku.
Click to expand...
Your training results scale from the quality of your opponent. He reached 3A from fighting people who have a power level of like 5 ?! It simply makes sense that he reaches low 2C by fighting low2c and 3A beings.

AKM sama said:
Nowhere in the ToP was it mentioned that 17 was constantly growing stronger as he fights. He is not Goku.
Click to expand...
 
AKM sama said:
Not really. There were prior threads talking about prior episodes too and consistency of those episodes was also discussed.
Click to expand...

Deeming 17's feats as inconsistencies is contradictory as we would have to mark a plethora of feats as outliers, aswell as ignoring multiple statements from the source-material that outright goes against the idea of his feats being inconsistent.

It fundamentally breaks his scaling while providing more inconsistencies that have to be resolved with loops of logic, which wouldn't be required if we simply took the multiple statements and feats at face value.

AKM sama said:
He was mostly unable to do anything against both, except for his shields. A short instance of throwing hands with someone stronger doesn't validate scaling.
Click to expand...

It was stated in verbatim that 17's attacks didn't do anything to GoD Toppo because of Toppo's Energy of Destruction. So this isn't a valid anti-feat.

AKM sama said:
A short instance of throwing hands with someone stronger doesn't validate scaling.
Click to expand...

17 could inflict a scar on Jiren that neither Low 2-C SSB Goku and Low 2-C SSBE Vegeta were capable of doing, he outright had more applicable feats than both in the Jiren fight.

Also, how does:

  • Taking hits from Jiren
  • Damaging Jiren
  • Clashing fists with Jiren
  • Taking hits from Low 2-C Toppo
  • Performing comparably to Low 2-C Vegeta and Low 2-C Goku against Jiren

not validate scaling? Every single facet indicates that this is consistent and valid.
 
"Toshitaka later went on to state that from his point of view, Android 17 was equal to Gohan in strength and both were stronger than Frost and Piccolo."

Gohan was stated to have gotten numerous Zenkai boosts



and his feats were still inferior to Android 17's. His full power Kamehameha did no damage to Base Toppo.

They both started out equal at the beginning of the tournament but A17 always had the better feats. This indirectly proves that 17 does have reactive Power level and used that to get Low 2c.
 
Yeah, forgot that Goku outright states all of them (including the NON-saiyans Frieza and A17) have all surpassed their limits during the tournament, supporting their feats later in the tournament and making it consistent from A17 to grow stronger in the tournament
 
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