Android 17 DBS, Low 2-C upgrade.

[God900]

Well, I'm not sure why this hasn't been done yet, anyways, I will be covering this:







-Well, as you can clearly see, in the first video, 17 was able to trick Jiren and damage him.

-In the second one, 17 cought Jiren and damaged him with a explosive barrier. Jiren got severaly injured. Minute 2:08


Allrighty!!!...., that's all the reasoning as of why 17 should have Low 2-C stats.

Thanks for your time!!

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If Ribrianne cannot get 3-A, 17 cannot get Low 2-C!

 

[Quantu]

This was so dumb. 17 was clearly portrayed lower throughout, getting overpowered by base Toppo not to far back from the first clip. Then he somehow damages Jiren, took an attack meant for SSBE Vegeta, fought on par against Jiren with Goku and Vegeta iirc, etc.

Actually, wasn't it decided that 17's Low 2-C feats would be an outlier?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If Ribrianne cannot get 3-A, 17 cannot get Low 2-C!

Agreed

 

[Coolboy6]

Jiren was caught off guard in that first scene, even Goku said so later in that video. And getting caught off guard in DBS vastly lowers your dura for some reason.

In that second scene, Jiren was weakened and beaten after using his limit break whatever form and getting beaten by MUI Goku beforehand. Plus Jiren was struggling against Golden Frieza because he was so weakened after fighting MUI Goku. (You could see he was out of breath at 1:00)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I'mma input some of my own logic into this.

For the first video, to me, doesn't it seem like 17's attack only damaged Jiren's clothing and lightly scratched his alien hide? It didn't seem it did shit to Jiren and seemed like 17 put a lot of energy into the aforementioned attack. Also, surprise attack. Remember that time Goku almost died from a sneak attack in RoF?

For the second video, Jiren was assaulted by 17 and Frieza after he got ****** over by MUI Goku and was still reeling from the ass-kicking that occurred back then, mentally and physically. That barrier self-destruct didn't do shit to that extremely exhausted and weaken Jiren who needed a long pep-talk from Toppo to muster the last of his energy to kick U7's ass, and by that point, Base Goku and Frieza could hurt and react to Jiren to a degree, but the only way to defeat him was still by pushing his ass off of the stage.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Base Goku and Frieza could hurt and react to Jiren to a degree, but the only way to defeat him was still by pushing his ass off of the stage.

Additionally, while Goku and Frieza were bum-rushing Jiren and pressuring him, Android 17 was off to the sidelines providing "support"; there are air quotes, because 17 hardly did anything of worth during that battle after Goku stepped in and Jiren got his fighting spirit back.

 

[God900]

For the first video, to me, doesn't it seem like 17's attack only damaged Jiren's clothing and lightly scratched his alien hide? It didn't seem it did shit to Jiren and seemed like 17 put a lot of energy into the aforementioned attack. Also, surprise attack. Remember that time Goku almost died from a sneak attack in RoF?

The Kai from U11 said that he was injured by the attack

 

[thetechmaster36]

The Kai from U11 said that he was injured by the attack

Jiren quite literally didn't give a damn about the attack. He stood there, basically unfazed by the attack. Besides, Goku already mentioned that Jiren wasn't able to guard himself from the attack.

So yeah, disagree FRA.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Jiren quite literally didn't give a damn about the attack. He stood there, basically unfazed by the attack. Besides, Goku already mentioned that Jiren wasn't able to guard himself from the attack.

So yeah, disagree FRA.

Yes, and the fact that Jiren showed next-to-no signs of being bothered by 17's attack itself and was just annoyed by the fact that somebody broke through his guard.

So this fanta is in the same boat as tech, disagree FRA!

 

[thetechmaster36]

annoyed by the fact that somebody broke through his guard.

nah he was annoyed by the fact that his shirt got ripped, toppo would be outraged

 

[Coolboy6]

The Kai from U11 said that he was injured by the attack

Because he was caught off guard…

 

[God900]

disagree FRA

So yeah, disagree FRA

̶S̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶m̶e̶r̶c̶y̶ ̶g̶u̶y̶s̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶.̶.̶.̶.̶.̶

 

[thetechmaster36]

̶S̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶m̶e̶r̶c̶y̶ ̶g̶u̶y̶s̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶.̶.̶.̶.̶.̶

mercy does not exist in my mind

Also, pretty sure Jiren was tanking attacks from Goku and Vegeta without much effect, if at all, before 17's mini-nuke attack

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We already had numerous discussions about this but, it was agreed to be plot convenience. And the bomb barely did anything to Base Jiren and that was agreed to be enough for proper scaling. As for what happened much later; Goku and Jiren were already heavily exhausted and severely weakened at this point, so it was for that reason that neither 17 nor Frieza scale.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

So, about that 3-A Ribrianne...

 

[Quantu]

Uh are you against or for it?

I've blocked out Universe 2 from my mind so I forgot

 

[God900]

If this is plot wise, I'm curious as of why Gohan is rated as strong as SSB Goku in the wiki, despite later on portrayed as no match for Toppo tho.

I mean, I'm sure that mystic Gohan is SSB level, is even stated by the author in the episodie, although it also has contradictions, the same as A17's Universal tier.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If this is plot wise, I'm curious as of why Gohan is rated as strong as SSB Goku in the wiki, despite later on portrayed as no match for Toppo tho.

I mean, I'm sure that mystic Gohan is SSB level, is even stated by the author in the episodie, although it also has contradictions, the same as A17's Universal tier.

SSB tiers couldn't beat Toppo. Golden Frieza, Gohan, and even SSB Vegeta all couldn't really beat Toppo

Frieza and 17 did the best but that's because Frieza hurted Toppo while he was in a beam clash with 17, eventually angering Toppo to his GoD form

 

[thetechmaster36]

If this is plot wise, I'm curious as of why Gohan is rated as strong as SSB Goku in the wiki, despite later on portrayed as no match for Toppo tho.

Toppo was able to withstand an up-close Kamehameha from SSB Goku, which ripped parts of his shirt. It just made him mad and caused him to power up further before he and Goku were told to stop fighting by the Grand Priest - he even seemed to be mostly fine right after the Kamehameha. It was implied that one or the other could have been killed if the fight continued with both of them going all out.

Gohan was able to later match SSB Goku in their fight, forcing Goku to use SSBKK to get the W.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Anyway lets scale base Goku and base freeza to 17.

 

[God900]

Toppo was able to withstand an up-close Kamehameha from SSB Goku, which ripped parts of his shirt. It just made him mad and caused him to power up further before he and Goku were told to stop fighting by the Grand Priest - he even seemed to be mostly fine right after the Kamehameha. It was implied that one or the other could have been killed if the fight continued with both of them going all out.

Gohan was able to later match SSB Goku in their fight, forcing Goku to use SSBKK to get the W.

Yeah guys, I mean, I'm sure 100% Gohan is SSB level, but as I said, it also had few contradictions the same as A17.

In the first fight of Goku VS base Toppo, both were portrayed equal in power tho.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku went Kaioken before the match stopped, and unlike with Bergamo, where he used SSBKK purely to flex on U9 (since SSJ Goku was more than a match even to Giant Bergamo), Goku seemed very serious against Toppo

 

[thetechmaster36]

it also had few contradictions the same as A17.

Then point out these contradictions.

In the first fight of Goku VS base Toppo, both were portrayed equal in power tho.

They weren't necessarily, since SSJ Goku was getting overpowered by Toppo, forcing Goku to turn SSB, hence showing that Toppo was strong enough to necessitate the use of the form (and as Gilad pointed out, Goku only went SSB and SSBKK to flex on everyone). After seeing Toppo power up, Goku, too, powered up and used SSBKK. It was because of the Grand Priest that they didn't continue fighting. We can't say they're portrayed as equal in power from an interrupted, half-finished fight my guy.

 

[God900]

We can't say they're portrayed as equal in power from an interrupted, half-finished fight my guy.

Well yeah, but we even if it was briefly, we could have an idea...

Anyways you have a point

 

[Vizer04]

I also disagree FRA

 

[Nullflowerblush]

In the manga, Goku stated that he held back against Toppo to a degree. Maybe there is a statement like that in the anime following the Zen Expo.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Maybe there is a statement like that in the anime following the Zen Expo.

I don't recall a statement like that. After the Zen Expo, Goku was going around and recruiting people, and I don't think he spoke of the Zen Expo to anyone besides Gohan and Satan. Could be wrong, of course, since it's been a while since I watched the entire recruitment portion, so feel free to correct me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Vegeta outright considered Gohan to be comparable if not superior to him; and Gohan actually fought SSB Goku before getting overwhelmed by SSB Kaioken. Of course, that was before the multiple zenkais Goku and Vegeta got throughout the tournament.

 

[God900]

Vegeta outright considered Gohan to be comparable if not superior to him; and Gohan actually fought SSB Goku before getting overwhelmed by SSB Kaioken. Of course, that was before the multiple zenkais Goku and Vegeta got throughout the tournament.

I mean yeah, I think I remember that, but could you send me the video or the scans, please? just to be sure.

 

[y3p_owo]

Disagree FRA

 

[Arnoldstone18]

When I watched the scans I knew you guys would take it apart.... Sighhhhhhhhh....

No problem.

Disagree FRA

 

[God900]

And the FRA train keeps going, merciless bastards!!!

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't really agree with this either as Jiren was clearly caught off guard

 

[SlendVeny]

I can't with Frieza's "YEeeeeAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!"

 

[SlendVeny]

Wait, that steam vomit does show Jiren was hurt, even if he was off-guard, so maybe it should be "3-A, higher with Android Barrier, Low 2-C with Self-Destruction"

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wait, that steam vomit does show Jiren was hurt, even if he was off-guard, so maybe it should be "3-A, higher with Android Barrier, Low 2-C with Self-Destruction"

I don't really agree, since Jiren was just got beaten throughly by Perfected UI Goku, and was reduced to such low power that Base Goku and Frieza could take him on with help from Android 17.

Besides, catching off guard doesn't mean they scale unless you think that Sorbet's laser is 3-A for hurting SSB Goku

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I can't with Frieza's "YEeeeeAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!"

Did you see the meme.

The "That's why your power level is pathetic" one.

I was already giggling when I watched the second vid

 

[AdNiBN002]

It's unlikely to matter but: agree with OP

It genuinely baffles me that he isn't Low 2-C already

 

[AdNiBN002]

I'll be offering some thoughts on why I think Nokia 17 should be Low 2-C but first the important bit;

If Ribrianne cannot get 3-A, 17 cannot get Low 2-C!

Ribrianne could push back Base Goku, so she's probably 3-A unironically

Anyways, lets begin.

This was so dumb. 17 was clearly portrayed lower throughout, getting overpowered by base Toppo not to far back from the first clip. Then he somehow damages Jiren, took an attack meant for SSBE Vegeta, fought on par against Jiren with Goku and Vegeta iirc, etc.

We actually have a statement from Frieza implying that 17 wasn't going all-out during his fight with base Toppo, which is actually consistent as he was mostly fighting to stall and given the feats we would see from him later.
The statement actually gives A LOT of validity as it explains how 17 seems so much stronger in such a short of amount of time.

I'mma input some of my own logic into this.

For the first video, to me, doesn't it seem like 17's attack only damaged Jiren's clothing and lightly scratched his alien hide? It didn't seem it did shit to Jiren and seemed like 17 put a lot of energy into the aforementioned attack. Also, surprise attack. Remember that time Goku almost died from a sneak attack in RoF?

Jiren quite literally didn't give a damn about the attack. He stood there, basically unfazed by the attack. Besides, Goku already mentioned that Jiren wasn't able to guard himself from the attack.

17's attack on Jiren was by far the most potent attack Jiren had taken at that point in the tournament.
It was the first time he had taken damage on that kind and the 2nd time an attack had left a visible mark on him since UI Goku 1 (which was a literal scratch compared to the actual scar in his suit that 17 gave him)
Neither SSBE Vegeta, nor SSB Goku did damage of this calibre on Jiren (who are both listed at Low 2-C)

Also, surprise attack. Remember that time Goku almost died from a sneak attack in RoF?

We actually saw base Frieza attempt a sneak attack on Jiren right after Vegeta, Goku and 17 had all been beaten which amounted to nothing and ended up getting him demolished right after.
So you do need relevant strength for a sneak attack to deal damage comparable to what 17 did. The only real exception to this is the Sorbet feat (which is extremely bizarre for a dozen reasons)
So 17's feat being a sneak-attack does not invalidate it by any means.

For the second video, Jiren was assaulted by 17 and Frieza after he got ****** over by MUI Goku and was still reeling from the ass-kicking that occurred back then, mentally and physically. That barrier self-destruct didn't do shit to that extremely exhausted and weaken Jiren who needed a long pep-talk from Toppo to muster the last of his energy to kick U7's ass, and by that point, Base Goku and Frieza could hurt and react to Jiren to a degree, but the only way to defeat him was still by pushing his ass off of the stage.

I mean, 17 did literally one-shot the fatigued Jiren that was equal to Golden Frieza. So saying it did nothing isn't really accurate. But I agree with the rest, this does not scale 17 nor Frieza.

We already had numerous discussions about this but, it was agreed to be plot convenience. And the bomb barely did anything to Base Jiren and that was agreed to be enough for proper scaling. As for what happened much later; Goku and Jiren were already heavily exhausted and severely weakened at this point, so it was for that reason that neither 17 nor Frieza scale.

Concluding this as plot convenience seems even more bizzare than just taking it at face value for me. There's half a dozen feats that would have to be converted to outliers for the sake of consistency then.

- 17 taking hits from Jiren must be an outlier

- 17 pushing back Jiren with his ki-blasts must be an outlier

- 17 taking hits from GoD Toppo must be an outlier

- 17 keeping up alongside SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta must be an outlier

- 17 briefly clashing with the Jiren that Goku and Vegeta could clash with, must be an outlier

- 17 hurting Jiren with the suprise attack must be an outlier

If we wanna leave this for another time, that's fine by me (I will admit that this post is probably uneccesary instigation, as it's unlikely to change opinions)
But i'm really not a fan of this conclusion at all, judging so many feats as inconsistencies just ends up making any proper scaling extremely cluttered.
Especially as there are statements that explain the original feats, which ends up going against the idea that these are outliers.